georger

Sammy as the token Jew; "[edit] Car accident and conversion Davis was almost killed in an automobile accident on November 19, 1954 in San Bernardino, California, as he was making a return trip from Las Vegas to Los Angeles.[14] The accident occurred at a fork in U.S. Highway 66 at Cajon Blvd and Kendall Drive. Davis lost his left eye as a result, and wore an eye patch for at least six months following the accident.[15][16] He appeared on What's My Line wearing the patch.[17] Later, he was fitted for a glass eye, which he wore for the rest of his life. While in the hospital, his friend Eddie Cantor told him about the similarities between the Jewish and black cultures. Prompted by this conversation, Davis — who was born to a Catholic mother and Protestant father — began studying the history of Jews and converted to Judaism several years later.[18][1] One passage from his readings, describing the endurance of the Jewish people, intrigued him in particular: "The Jews would not die. Three millennia of prophetic teaching had given them an unwavering spirit of resignation and had created in them a will to live which no disaster could crush".[19] In many ways, the accident marked a turning point in Davis's career, taking him from a well-known entertainer to a national celebrity and icon.[14]" (wiki) oevey!

I was offering the complete picture to Georger on a private basis to decipher the lettering, but he got mad instead. Jo. I did not interpret anything you said as an offer to send me the photo for processing. I decline your offer in any event. Jo is blocked from sending me any unsolicited email. G.

What has this to do with me or my cows!? I suspect you treated the FBI as you treat us here, gave us orders and told us to "fetch for Jo". In everything you say above its all general and not one specific fact of anything that matters. You seem incapable of managing your own case. Maybe get one of your supporters to present your case for you from now on? I seriously doubt you anything will ever satisfy you in this matter regardless of who is involved - so here's my best idea for you now. Get Angel Udell to help you and present your case. You say she helped you once. Maybe she will help you again and show you the way .... quello è tutto - va il vostro senso Josephino'.

Bishop, youngest of five children, was born as Joseph Abraham Gottlieb in the Bronx, New York, the son of Anna (née Siegel) and Jacob Gottlieb, Jewish Central European immigrants.[1][2][3] His father was a bicycle repairman.[4] Bishop was raised in South Philadelphia.[4] In 1941, Bishop married Sylvia Ruzga, who died in 1999 from lung cancer. They had one son, Larry Bishop, a film director and actor. [edit] Career Bishop began his career as part of a standup comedy act with his elder brother, Maury. He guest-hosted on television's The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson more times than anyone else, having also frequently appeared on Steve Allen's and Jack Paar's previous versions of the show. He hosted his own television show, The Joey Bishop Show (1967-1969), a 90-minute late-night talk show five nights a week on ABC that was launched as competition to Carson's popular nightly program. His sidekick for this show was then-newcomer Regis Philbin. A situation comedy, also titled The Joey Bishop Show, premiered on 20 September 1961 and ran for four seasons, first on NBC and later CBS. Bishop played a talk show host named Joey Barnes. His wife was portrayed by Abby Dalton, who joined the cast in 1962. Bishop was among the stars of the original Ocean's Eleven film about military veterans who reunite in a plot to rob five Las Vegas casinos on New Year's Eve. He co-starred with Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr. and Peter Lawford of the so-called Rat Pack, although the five of them did not publicly acknowledge that name. During filming, the five entertainers performed together on stage in Vegas at the Sands Hotel. Bishop did only a little singing and dancing, but did tell jokes and write some of the act's material. He later appeared with Sinatra, Martin and Davis in the military adventure Sergeants 3, a loose remake of Gunga Din, and with Martin in the western comedy Texas Across the River, in which he portrayed an Indian. Bishop was the only member of the Rat Pack to work with members of a younger group of actors dubbed The Brat Pack, appearing (as a ghost) in the film Betsy's Wedding with Molly Ringwald and Ally Sheedy. His final appearance in a film was a non-speaking role in Mad Dog Time, written and directed by Larry, his son. His character was named Gottlieb, which was Joey Bishop's real last name. Perpetually glum Bronx-born standup comedian Joey Bishop was born Joseph Abraham Gottlieb on February 3, 1918, the youngest of five children of Eastern European émigrés. He was raised, however, in Philadelphia and learned while growing up how to tap dance, do imitations and play the mandolin and banjo. Dropping out of high school at 18, he started out in the humor business in vaudeville as part of a comedy act with his brother. Billed as "Joey Gottlieb" at the time, he later joined a comedy group that called themselves "The Bishop Trio" and kept the last name for himself after the team broke up. His nascent career was interrupted while serving in the Army during WWII, but quickly resumed things after his discharge in 1945. He appeared on television as early as 1948, but it took a while before he caught on. A master ad-libber, he became a nitery specialist at such establishments as the Latin Quarter, and served as an opening act for a number of stars, including Frank Sinatra, in the mid-50s. As his reputation increased, he became a steadfast cog on the talk show, sitcom and game show circuits. A frequent and amusing guest panelist on "What's My Line?" (1950), the jug-eared jokester went on to guest-host on the "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" (1962) a record 177 times. He also frequently appeared as a guest for Steve Allen and Jack Paar in their earlier late-nite formats. Bishop entered the sitcom venue in the early 1960s. On his first show, "The Joey Bishop Show" (1961), he played Joey Barnes, the host of a TV talk show in New York. Abby Dalton came on board in the second season as wife Ellie. Among his co-stars were up-and-coming stars Bill Bixby and Marlo Thomas and such character veterans as Joe Besser, of The Three Stooges fame, and Mary Treen were brought aboard for stronger support. This popular show lasted four seasons. Life imitated art several years later when Bishop went on to compete against Carson for the late-night viewing audience with his own talk show "The Joey Bishop Show" (1967) for ABC. The show was no match for Carson, however, and quickly dwindled in ratings, fading away after two years. His co-host/sidekick/foil was none other than Regis Philbin. Dick Cavett eventually replaced him to fill the ABC midnight void. Relatively overlooked for his work on film, Bishop did show some promise early in the game with occasional straight roles that veered away from his sarcastic comedy demeanor with such roles in The Deep Six (1958), The Naked and the Dead (1958) and Onionhead (1958). He would also generate public interest as the less-than-slick member of Hollywood's "Rat Pack", which was comprised of ultra-hip pals Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr. and Peter Lawford. Known as "Sinatra's comic" at one time (for having frequently opened for the star), Bishop wrote material and serving as the emcee for many of the clan's Las Vegas shows in the 1960s. In addition he appeared in the "Rat Pack"-oriented movies Ocean's Eleven (1960) and Sergeants 3 (1962), but the straight-laced comedian later butted heads with the party-hearty Sinatra and split while the next film Robin and the 7 Hoods (1964) was in preparation. Elsewhere, he appeared as either a foil, sidekick, or guest cameos in such standard movies as Johnny Cool (1963), Texas Across the River (1966) with Dean Martin, Who's Minding the Mint? (1967) and even Valley of the Dolls (1967). Once his late night TV show folded he returned to night clubs for a time but gradually withdrew more and more from the show-biz limelight in the 1970s. He appeared in only three films after this point -- The Delta Force (1986), Betsy's Wedding (1990) and Mad Dog Time (1996) -- and showing up on a rare occasion as a TV guest. Married to Sylvia Ruzga since 1941, their son Larry Bishop is an actor-turned-director and producer. Long retired and the last surviving "Rat Pack" member after Sinatra's death in 1998, his wife Sylvia of 58 years died of cancer in 1999. Joey, in failing health for some time, died of multiple organ failure on October 17, 2007, at his Newport Beach, California home. Trivia Member of the "Rat Pack" - himself, Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis Jr. and Peter Lawford. All appear in Ocean's Eleven (1960). Father of actor Larry Bishop. Received a citation from Pope John XXIII for his help with the Boys Towns throughout Italy. Weighed 2lbs, 14 oz, at birth. At the time was the smallest baby ever born at Fordham Hospital in New York City. While he performed as the "straight man" during the famous "Rat Pack" performances in Las Vegas, he wrote much of the material that was performed on stage. Guest-hosted "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" (1962) more than anyone else, doing so 177 times. Was a regular on the 'Dean Martin Celebrity Roasts.' Biography in: "Who's Who in Comedy" by Ronald S. Smith, pg. 53-54. New York: Facts on File, 1992. ISBN 0816023387 His professional surname, Bishop, was taken from the last name of a chauffeur friend of his in his early days in show business. He and the other members of the Rat Pack were banned from Marilyn Monroe's funeral by Joe DiMaggio. Is portrayed by Bobby Slayton in The Rat Pack (1998) (TV) Some time after his wife's death, Nora Garbotti became his constant companion. One of his biggest passions was simply playing golf with his comic cronies Buddy Hackett, Phil Foster and Dick Shawn. Comedian/producer Danny Thomas was so impressed with Bishop that he had a weekly sitcom built around Bishop in the early 60s. During his "Rat Pack" peak, he was asked by Sinatra to be the master of ceremonies for President Kennedy's inaugural gala. Was the last surviving member of "The Rat Pack". Personal Quotes The kick [of comedy] is to think quickly. It's a great kick. I don't consider success doing a show for 30 years; I'm sorry. To me, you're successful when you graduate from something. I did a series, I did a talk show, I did movies, I replaced Mickey Rooney [on Broadway] in "Sugar Babies." You understand? need more?

Cooper knew he was in SAGE country, but he had a plan. The lav session was really Cooper doing ECM. There is a lot of 28 VDC current available on the 727-100 series and easily accessed by removing panels in the lav. Big electrical arcs create powerful broadbanded RF signals from VLF through X band. The planes wiring system served as the antenna. Cooper had the system manuals and carefully picked which lines he tapped for his arcs and put a big current limiting resistor in line with his welding stick so as to not pop a circuit breaker. No wonder the radar records of the flight track were so spotty. Cooper used Marconi's 1897 spark transmitter to beat the USAF's best contemporary electronic technology. Duane had Boeing schematics, was an EE (prison trained through NCS correspondence school) and a certified arc welder. He was also a "ranger" of some sort. Duane also hung with the Rat Pack in Vegas. Sinatra's Strangers in the Night was really an inside joke referring to Duane's Norjack caper. Frank would sometimes drop the "s" on both ends of "strangers" when singing to the Mafia. They all knew what he meant and got a big kick out of it. 377 all subject to the aurora effects that night at the northern latitude of WA, of course. One slip and Danny would have broadcast his own atoms on to the walls of that lav. Was there an auroral display that night? I dont think we have ever asked. That would have immediate implications for Cooper using his Ronko Fornax generator and his Capt. Video ring! Jo .... is really quiet. She must be consulting with her General and Admiral friends. What to do next! We all know Duane was going to hijack the Eiffel Tower to save in his saftey deposit box along with Marylin Monroe's ear rings and his Mafia tapes. God only knows what Jo has stored in her shed or udner her bed!!

Ya...and it's interesting that Jo won't even tell her story to people who are only too willing to swallow conspiracy theories..or, seeing as she has now spread her net so much further afield than skydivers, to someone who might "know" something. Well done Georger by the way for calling her bluff on the photo. (I was leaning towards the Lone Ranger, myself...) Duane was a Tonto.

There is no spectroscopic evidence from the fingerprints, that any arc welder was ever on that plane. A pimp with women's makeup and various other sundry concomitants of the trade on his tie, yes. And we know Cooper bent down over the toilet and dipped his tie in toilet water, and threw up. Welders are not prone to a case of nerves.

Doubt he would know the term however he could have had the item in a safe box as provenance meant for other item(s) - he was an antique dealer. In a similar vein Duane could have had all kinds of things (as an antique dealer) Jo thinks or wants to assert applies to her case. I remind you, the Duane case is Jo's case, not Duane's. Duane never claimed he was Cooper and several people who have made sworn affidavits say what Duane did say to them was totally different than any claim that he was Cooper. Jo has no one who will swear Duane told them he was DB Cooper, and that is a primary truth. Jo suggests the writing on the photo is important. Of what I can read I can guess the nature of the rest, but let Jo publish what she says it says. Im betting she won't tell us what she thinks it says, in any event. How do we know where Jo came by this photo. I see no certificate of its origin in her post. Once again it is all Jo making claims and issuing challenges which by now are worthless paper. Were it not for Jo Weber, the Duane Weber story would not exist at all on its own merits. In stark contrast to what Jo Weber has done, thousands of man hours and a lot of hard money has been expended trying to make breakthrough in the Cooper case, on the part of a lot of dedicated honest people ... who Jo Weber bashes daily in one form or another. Now she posts this photo of several military figures perhaps in jest just to get us going and see us squirm at her pleasure. She only hints it may have something to do with her Weber story. I would like to see Jo Weber stand up before several rooms full of people who have worked on the Cooper case orwho were personally involved, to their families and their children and grand children, and have Jo Weber face all of these people and tell them as a group aDuane Weber was DB Cooper! I am not the only person who thinks this.

Have Some FUN.

Are you confusing forest rangers with Army Rangers? Not sure what you meant. 377 No she isnt. Jo is not confused about anything. Jo knows exactly what she is doing. Jo is an operative in the Wells Fargo Bank and is about to foreclose on all Cooper property, including you! Sorry you signed up and didnt see it coming. Good times are ahead for Jo, bad times for you. Now it's not so funny - ehy? Good luck.

Sorry. Duane never used that name, according to Jo. Try 'Jimmie the Jammer'. (sexual metaphor only!) Milk fists and glass jaw.

There is absolutely NO reason to go anywhere to tell what I know. I have not decided what to do with the information of recent, but I believe that you guys will be interested in some photos I have acquired. This examply is only one, but there are hundreds more where this came from. With all of the ears looking big - and lots of Cooper look-alikes there are literally 100's of Cooper suspect for you guys to investigate. Some of these guys (not in this specific photo) were NOT military. Some were on loan from prisons (furloughs). Maybe 3 or 4 in another photo were receiving jump training for a fire crew? Maybe they were being trained for what could be a death mission? Maybe they were being trained for a private group for reasons not to be known? Regardless - I thought you guys might like the opportunity to really find Cooper suspects. Don't forget the Salt Lake City photo of the guy NO ONE wanted to identify. Note I include truths with just miscellaneous trivia, but the truth as we have discovered it is not for public knowledge at this time. I haven't decided what I am going to do. Nothing goes POOF forever. I often hit a wrong button or my computer looses the connection - that is all I meant by my post going POOF! Yes, the prison jumpers went POOF - I may never know why I could not find it again - but, it did exist. Nothing I have acquired lately has gone poof. I have made point, but would rather chase Cooper with a Comic Book (that is what the FBI is doing). These new FBI agents are not very good at anything except hijacking ideas (such as Carr did with the Dan Cooper Comics) on the FBI site. Carr never gave you guys in this forum credit for that and it is ridiculous the FBI would even print the notion as a clue their site. Not that the idea was ridiculous - but using it as part of the Cooper profile is. Make fun of me if you wish, but how will you feel if I go public? How will you explain your actions at that time? Will you be embarassed? Or will you continue on your merry way ridiculing me and anyone else who has a suspect...other than your own. Jo you never will go public. Jo you need to change your attitude. Local news starts now. Click! [edit] whatif someone else goes public first! Say by Christmas or early in January... Better hurry up Jo.

Ah..yes, OK. I had assumed because Cooper did it first the scenario was unlikely..but your sketch is a perfectly reasonable chain of events. I really like that kind of thinking out of the box. That kind of scenario could be written into an interesting crime fiction book. Good job. I wonder if defense lawyers have considered it. "ladies and gentlemen of the jury: the evidence will show that a week before the crime, my client was drinking and boasting at his favorite bar seated next to a gentlemen who bore a surprising resemblance to himself... 377 you cant be missing if you arent noticed missing, even if you are missing. And maybe you arent missing! It is very intriguing to me that nobody, as far as we know, ever surfaced with a match to the widly publicised Cooper posters. Something vital is missing in this and it is NOT Jo Weber's yo-yo juddling and 'smorgasbord' retrofitting of Duane Weber for all ocassions, even including now, the JFK assasination! Jo has undone her case through her endless inept retrofitting and remodeling of Duane to fit every known or anticipated fact of the Cooper case. And Duane was not on Apollo-13 either! Time to get back to business... in the real Cooper case. The Gentleman hyjacker suggests a profile. The Raleigh profile refines that. Of all the candidates examined that we know of, only McCoy spent time around Raleigh profile types. Thats a fact. If the hyjacker had calculated the odds and decided escape by parachute was 'no big deal' the very choice of that method tends to point fingers at .. people like McCoy, especially if McCoy himself is known to be planning his own hyjacking! And if the plan is 'to never be found' then it falls back on the FBI (scratching its heads) to figure it out - and you dont ask for too much ransom so maybe NWA and the insurers will just drop it and let it go? If I had interviewed McCoy I would have played with his ego and tried to get him to reveal his feelings about the Cooper hyjacking. Did McCoy think he had been beaten to the punch, outwitted, or set up? Maybe he was? What did he think about Cooper? He obviously had it on his mind being the ego he was! He might have known something he didn;t know he even knew? Because, the only other option is these hyjackings are examples of Independent Invention, used the same technique with the same airplane separated by time but very similar .... and something accounts for that. Independent invention is not rare but it requires an underlying common denominator, eg. two people inventing the calculus independently separated by not much time, or, three nations all trying to develop the atomic bomb all at the same time, unrelated? No. When Agent Carr says McCoy was the 'real McCoy' Agent Carr is not just saying McCoy was a real known hyjacker; Agent Carr is saying McCoy represents a 'profile' of traits and social-psycholpogical facts. Something links Cooper and McCoy and all hyjackers of airplanes. The only question is how deep does it go. But McCoy fits a specific profile, ie. someone who would have been 'provocotive' in most academic environments and he had a 'big mouth with much to prove'. McCoy was not an academic in any sense but comes back and tried to integrate into academia for the purpose of social transition and upward mobility, from military to civilian life. Many people can make this transition. McCoy could not and given McCoy's personality this was predictable (on the Seashore college predictability scale). Given McCoy's nature, McCoy was bound to be problematic and produce sparks ewpecially during the Vietnam Conflict, in any academic environment; intense passions and frustrations on both sides. Academic environments are great sponges where people and people's ideas get absorbed and sometimes actualised - this happened regularly on college and university campuses during the Vietnam Conflict. An idea expressed by person X filters down through others who in turn traslate that idea in terms of their own needs and may actualise the ideas - I suspect McCoy would have resented that kind of thing deeply while also stumbling into it, to his own detriment. That is how academia operates on a daily basis! Academia is a very caustic environment for some people ... I dont think academia did much to help McCoy's self esteem. Cooper gave quite a performance on flight 305. Compare his tactics with those of McCoy. They are different. If I understand these hyjackings McCoy opted for personal (close in) control vs. Cooper who opted for more impersonal global control via a bomb. That spells a fundamental difference in approach and outlook and training. McCoy is relying on personal control and asking for far more money - Cooper is relying on impersonal control and asking for less money! This difference amounts to a difference in identity and backgrounds between the two hyjackers. It would be interesting to examine the social networks McCoy interacted with during his academic days, especially looking for someone who goes missing or has some sudden life change around the end of 1971, prior to McCoy's hyjacking. It would have been interesting to interview people in McCoy's former academic circle to discover exactly who he interacted with and their reactions to their former 'associate' McCoy becoming a hyjacker. If nothing else, you learn something about the process of hyjacking. And you don;t know until you explore it. Something links McCoy and Cooper and the only question is 'how much of a coincidence can this be'? Both McCoy and Cooper hyjack in the same NWA venue from Utah to Washington. (Why didnt Cooper do his NWA hyjacking in California or elsewhere?) McCoy shows up and suddenly hyjackings start, or is this just my imagination/ignorance of basic facts? G.

I support that! Jo should be on Coast-to-Coast every nite. But will they allow her in the Mothership?

Jo isn't Katherine Houghton and you ain;t Boggy. Kate Houghton was Katherine Hepburn.

We dont really know who and what Jo is or what she is up to. Jo is telling you that you do not know who you are or what you yourself are up to. Believe Jo.

It is obvious Cooper was not from the area, when he made his way back trying to get back to Portland, only to stumble into a well known transient hangout on Thanksgiving eve no less empty of fishermen that night, then got jumped, scuffle ensued ... evidence of the scuffle left for posterity to find years later ... and Cooper's body perhaps with the money bag still attached chucked into the Columbia for Nature to take away. Bums at Tina Bar have a nasty habit of never knowing what they have when they jump their victims in the middle of the night, a few bundles left right where they fell in the dark. Bums are meaner on Thanksgiving eve because they remember how things used to be... Bums walk into churches later to tell their story.

the notion that mccoy may have known cooper is intriguing... but it is mccoy who got caught for talking, not cooper. why would cooper have blabbed to mccoy when he was clearly good at keeping his mouth shut, and why wouldn't mccoy have given him up after he was arrested? Quite the opposite. Cooper would have listened as McCoy rambled. Cooper might have exchanged a few general remarks like: 'yes, the world has gone to hell' (things like Jo sayz!). Then Cooper thinking McCoy was a damned fool sets out to act on his own impulses, first, possibly even thinking thefinger will be pointed at McCoy (thefool). This scenario requires two things: (a) a quasi academic environment where Cooper and McCoy have a chance meeting, if they did not already know each other. (b) The assumption on Cooper's that anyone can 'parachute'! (b1) a plot w. helpers? (b2) research, (b3) that McCoy's attention is diverted away from even thinking that someone he knows or barely knows is in fact Cooper. This scenario also requires that total morons like Duane and Jo will come along later and muddy up the works. But Cooper is intelligent. He knows the world is full of transients like Duane/Jo. The Weber escatology is simply the end-game in Cooper's longterm plan for escaping detection. He is relying on many wannabes surfacing from greed and conviction to make things hard for the FBI. Jo is the real plant! The disrupter. She knows she is the disrupter. She just doesn;t know she "is" a disrupter. Morons never know they are morons.

soh? He wants you to drive his car in the Indy-500 ? He wants you to get back into foreclosed properties and sell more houses to people who cant afford them? Thats right down your alley, so to speak. Your doctor was wrong and you aren't dead? Dont hold us in suspense 4Jo. The auditorium is almost empty and some even want their tickets refuned ...

======================= When we moved to Va. Bch. was in 1983 several yrs after he took me to WA in 1979 and told and showed me what he did. Our moving to VA is not when or why Duane became interested in McCoy or the Cooper Story. I would appreciate it if you would keep yours statements regarding this factual rather than adding to the myths and if you would please refrain from making COY statements about Weber unless you verify the facts. This is the kind of thing that contributes to the myths of the future. we have been over this a thousand times. your stories keep changing. what else is new? Now you just said Duane took you to WA and 'showed you and told you'. For thirteen years you have been saying he 'did not show you and tell you' anything that made sense, and thus your thirteen year quest AFTER his deathbed confession to being Cooper. Between the trip to WA and his confession on his deathbed you say you did not have the faintest notion that Duane could be Cooper, or Eisenhower either! Or was involved in the JFK Assassination, which you now claim an association. As for McCoy., you have posted on this forum it was at Virginia Beach where you and Duane became aware of Richard McCoy and you even drove by his house and a book about the Cooper hyjacking 'appeared' on your mantel but you never read it. That is what you have previously posted. I have a long memory, plus an archive of this whole forum (cross referenced for searches - so do others.) I can re-post your posts on this topic if you like, which you would only ignore to continue ... which makes me think none of thios has any real meaning for you. You just like the chase and chasing others to fill the void in your life. Maybe pig wrestling would be more your style?

Now you know that is not true. Which "observer" would you pick to do your heart surgery ... or as your guide on a fishing expedition? bad examples. Both of those have stuff to observe and study. My point is there's nothing to study. Any damn opinion off the street is just as good. If good fishing was random, I could take you anywhere and be just as good as any fishing guide. Same with heart surgery. If there was nothing to study, and success was just luck, I'd cut you open and be just as good. Precisely. Its not luck. Any more than your being here with the most posts of anyone is pure random luck, but why am I saying this. Its like talking to an allergy when what is really going on is a P-J synaptic disconnect. A seeing eye dog might help?

and the proof that happen is . . . ?

So 'who is' the expert jumper that did it right, in your world? I think you're having an allergy attack here Snowmann. Every time the dog gets close to a solid scent trail you start wheezing and coughing and sputtering nonsense. Go back to Braden if you like.

and the corpse was found where?

But my general opinion is that no one has any information to say anything reasonable about who Cooper might have been. It's biased more by who the observer is, rather than any evidence about Cooper. Now you know that is not true. Which "observer" would you pick to do your heart surgery ... or as your guide on a fishing expedition? Some observers are better than others in concrete practical situations in life. Or are you your own expert observer in all matters? Which sees better in the dark? You or a cougar?