georger

what catches my attention is: "...washed back up (from down stream) by tidal action" ?

well, in point of fact, nobody witnessed Cooper jump or was with him as he jumped and knows whathe did or did not do - its all guesswork based on a lot of assumptions & interpretations. This case is full of guesswork and assumptions which have turned out to be wrong. Nobody has any solid proof what happened to Cooper outside of his money turning up on Tina Bar. Cossey said: "if he pulled (got that chuite open) he landed".

Thats not the info I have. The Corps started (did basic spreading-leveling). Fazio came down and pushed and leveled things around more after the Corps was gone. Itwas his property. Ask him? Bruce can ask him? Fazios did provide the backhoe and operated it for the excavation (thats my understanding) ? Where did Ckret get the idea Fazio did the dregde grading if he didnt do some?

The problem with all of this is the assumption it was not floating (which more than likely it did sink). Please take the next statement and give me your professional opionion of what happens to the money. What happens if you bury the money along the shore line just above Winterly Park sometime in the early fall of 1979. Ignore the paper bag in the river just below the Portland Bridge, but with your knowledge what would have happened to money buried across from the airport and East of Winterly Park. Maybe it was in some kind of container and weighted or he just buried it there (all we had was a snow shovel) - as a symbolic jester and later it was washed out by the currents and tides of the Columbia. This is pure conjecture because of the time he spent on the water at that location. I believe if Cooper was Weber that he retrieved the money from another site within 1 hr drive of the Dalles - about 5 days prior to putting it in the river. A lot depends of WHERE the money was located on Tina Bar. Thomas and Kaye claim to know but wont cough the info up in concrete form. Maybe neither of them knows and are just bullshitting. The FBI may or may not even know! Palmer did not nail the location down, apparently, and Ingram is no help at all and may not remember if he ever knew. Nobody apparently bothered to nail the location down or we would know it. I have the feeling a lot of people are just bullshitting and playing games with this whole matter, to save face. Once again, the simplest piece of concrete info that matters .... is missing. In addition no sampling and dating of soils and materials was done by anyone, apparently. There are tests that could still be done but nobody seems to want to do them or tell us anything about this matter. We are being bullshitted by everyone involved right up to this year... All the wrong people seem to be in charge!

Looking at this photo I am forced to ask again: WHY TINA BAR!? Of all of the shoreline and debris that washes up on shorelines why "this money" at "Tina Bar". Why not somewhere else as easily if it washed up at all? I can think of a thousand other places just as likely (especially if it came from the Washougal). Tina Bar is late in the chain if the origin is Washougal especially for a package that isnt floating in the first place.

no problem. I also would liketo see a drop or two - especially one in wx condx like those of 11-24-71 with the rotating cells moving up V23 corridor and winds from! 166* You maybe noticed nobody (Jery or Farflung) said a word about 225-235 vrs. 166 and Bohan. Jerry has always mentioned wx maps of the day he has (or has seen). I have two also. I know Bohan's report to Ken Hastings at PDX happened. (Bohan spoke of this to H years later). So the obvious question is: what happens when you drop into those conditions in the V23 corridor above PDX. ? Even Jerry said the wx conditions Im speaking of a real. Would one of those rotating cells take a jumper west toward . . . ?

heres some photos if they help -

No, actually I multi-task. Watching "The Breed", a movie, dumbest damned thing Ive veer seen, also working a blueprint for a building, checking WX forecast for Hawk game on Saturday, and now writing this.... and phone just rang ... also thinking about fried green tomatoes by 2:30am ! Hate to take a break to cook them but want them ... life is a struggle.

Pretty hard to do as a covert forgery. Other inconsistent early versions might remain. Certificates have been amended by court order to correct patenity errors. Why do you ask Georger? 377 ?????

Ckret shagged that one- "Once in the Columbia, the bundles began drifting down stream. It would have taken 14.7 hours for the bundles (if unobstructed) to make it to Tena's Bar, " Kind of funny isnt it. Safecracking must haved swallowed hard reading that. Today I believe Ckret would even see the falacy in this. 2.5 wet heavy (silted?) bundles don't float sans bag. The wet bag full of money would not 'float' on its own. Or maybe it was 2.328579 bundles!? The top bundle did the looking. The bottom bundle did the steering. The spirit of the bundles went ashore at Tina Bar . . . the wind was easy, mild, and meak with bundles miles to go before they slept.. Whose woods these wree I think I know. The Faxios. The darkest evening of the year.

I seem to remember Palmer brought some of his students also, after he arrived. The photos would show some portion of who was there. The excavation at Tina Bar would make a nice thesis! I am really surprised historians havent dug into this case. I dont quite understand that. I guess someone summarized this before, but Palmer wasn't there till the 2nd day? And the backhoes weren't used till the 2nd day? I'm too lazy to look back in the posts. I honestly dont know what day Palmer arrived but I may be able to dig that up - I do know he arrived with a colleague who helped on this project and with several students who got involved. I dont remember who got Palmer involved but I can look that up also -

yes. Fazios spread the dredge silt. I can get the dates if thats important. Ckret, Thomas, etc confirm this.

Yes. block UV and O2. Its the sulfur bonds in the molecules that are most vulnerable, I think. That kind of protection could happen on the bottom of the Columbia or buried on shore, or in a cold wet bog, but once the few bundles that survived were exposed they could not have moved very much without risking the brttle band fragments in place around the bundles. (Remember you posted one pdf about paper survival in cold water environs...) Bag fragments is the first thing I would have gone after after the find ... any cloth frags or threads ... actually more important than the discovery of the money in terms of forensics (to me). The existence of the bag would have been a concrete piece of evidence. So far as I know no cloth or threads of any kind were ever found and do not appear in any report. Tom and I gave this matter a high priority and I am not free to speak about that. (The results are literally in the FBI's hands). If there had ever been cloth on Tina Bar is surely would have been found during the excavation, either as a gross piece of evidence or microscopically. Maybe McPheters could speak to this ? I also like the feel of McPheters' article...

I seem to remember Palmer brought some of his students also, after he arrived. The photos would show some portion of who was there. The excavation at Tina Bar would make a nice thesis! I am really surprised historians havent dug into this case. I dont quite understand that.

So I think it played out like he said. He probably just can't remember exactly what the money looked like. I would suppose the frags were rather nondescript and delicate. I find the use of the word "weathered" interesting becuase that may literally describe the whole situation. The beach had weathered to the point the bills began to be revealed just as happens with any buried fossil or deposits on beaches, or in a hillside. This deposit was not suddenly thrust upon Tina Bar by a single high tide. Frankly, that is absurd. It's just too bad the scene wasn't treated as a forensic archaeological site or we might have far more evidence tonight - we might not even be here. He doesnt mention Palmer. I found his one suspect with nicotine stained fingers interesting. So close and yet so far - that has to be frustrating. [edit] Lets also note that McPheters outside of leaning toward the 'he died' theory, does not endorse either the Wahsougal or dredge theory per se, but seems to remain open. That fits with the side of the story I know amd remarked about above. The Cooper story seems to be taking on a more human face. ?

But! were any of the bill fragments marinated and eaten ... who provided the cases of beer?

So now have we established there was a frag field on and near the surface, roughly commensurate with a recent hi-tide line. Tides are nice surface cleaners. Make things obvious. They tend to lift things up that were previously snagged or matted down. And "weathered" and "having been in water" are two distinct things.

What "Himmelsbach's information regime" ? Have you proof one ever existed? Exists now? You make it sound as if it was H calling all shots and directing-controling everything. That was NOT the case. Just more conspiracy theory on your part - You mean the hundreds of newspaper articles interviewing Himmelsbach, are in error in their description of Himmelsbach as the lead in the investigation and rather than representing the investigation, Himmelsbach was just another blowhard? Okay. I'll believe that. I didn't make up the story that Himmelsbach had a lead role. It was in the papers. I suspect Himmelsbach said he was. Did Himmelsbach not tell the truth? Why cant Snoewmman find the truth, is more the point!

so, youve read the reports and know!? More wild guessing making on your part. Had nothing to do with H retiring. Think about it!

Himmelsbach's information regime at best covers up to the money find. What "Himmelsbach's information regime" ? Have you proof one ever existed? Exists now? You make it sound as if it was H calling all shots and directing-controling everything. That was NOT the case. Just more conspiracy theory on your part -

Georger, your thoughts on the dredging theory as to how the money got to Tena Bar? 377 There were dredge silts placed and spread on Tina Bar. Whether the money was above or below the dredge layer or even off to the side, chances are good the money was contaminated to some extent by the dredging silt simply by being in proximity with that material coupled with hydrological effects mixing materials around and together over time. I would not be surprised at all if the money showed signs of having been in proximity to the dredge silts even if the money was not carried on shore with the dredge deposits. Tom Kaye claims the money was well removed from the dredge deposit(s) and thus in a pristine environment. Im not sure of Kaye's timeline now. We may never-ever hear more from Tom Kaye and that is a shame. We know what Dr. Palmer thought. Tom Kaye says Palmer was wrong, but again Mr. Kaye has not come forth to say anything publically. If I had to guess I would say Mr. Kaye has no firm idea how the money got to Tina Bar. In addition, Mr. Kaye does not have the lab facilities to make he full body of tests which might shed light on this matter. I do know something of the historical record in this matter, as follows: Following the discovery of the money and Crystal Ingram turning in the last 4 bills, the FBI did not just sit and speculate but through a number of agents and resources the FBI sought and obtained a series of forensic reports in an effort to shed light on the history of the money, its path, etc. The money was examined forensically not just for finger prints but for other evidence. This resulted in a series of technical reports completely distinct from the Palmer and other reports we have heard of to date, in this forum. These examinations brought in a series of experts distinct from the names we have heard in this forum to date. Examinations of sand and silt were conducted. Other tests were applied. The FBI made a real effort to identify traits in the money which would yield anything regarding the money's path of travel and a timeline for its deposit on Tina Bar. Most of this work was done in 1980. So, when Tom Kaye and I and others volunteered to do new testing of the money it was (in my mind) off the back of these previous tests that we were working, and so far as I know we did break some new ground. We found traits in the money which no previous test(s) had documented previously and our results are unimpeachable. And, about as I expected, further tests would be required to expand upon our work which might finally answer a few basic questions concerning timelines and geo-hydro paths of travel, or not. Ckret helped us as much as he could given his knowledge base. Tom went to Seattle to search records. Let me be very clear about one thing. Yes, some money was contaminated by finger print analysis, but the bulk of the money was not. Even with finger printing contamination some results obtained by Mr. Kaye are NOT affected by the presence of silver nitrate contamination. Some of Tom's results stand on their own and are results not previously obtained, to my knowledge. This is one reason Tom is reluctant to say much even now - In addition, of the test the FBI was able to obtain on the money in 1980 and beyond, there is not strict continuity in the results of these tests. In other words there is no single unilateral result pointing in one single direction but a mix of results and there is nothing to my knowledge which points exclusively 'or proves' the Washougal washdown theory. We have a mix of results which could imply several scenarios, as I read this matter. In other words, Jerry Thomas (so far as I know) has no data which proves Cooper landed in the Washougal and the money flowed from the Washougal to Tina Bar. And just as importantly, nothing definitively proves the money arrived on the bar with dredging materials although that is not totally ruled out! Palmer's report which ruled out money arriving on the bar with dredge material, stands on its own. Palmer was very confident based on his examination of strata. On the other hand I am critical of the manner inw hich Palmer's excavation was conducted and the lack of tests which could easily have been done. Maybe tests were done and I just dont know about it, but at this late date I find that a little hard to believe or we would already have had some sign of such tests, from somebody who has been involved in this matter over the last 37+ years. I personally lack the data to make a decision at this moment. That is my answer. But there are hard facts in the money which require a firm explanation, not addressed to date. What I am trying to convey here is the FBI made a good faith effort to examine the money forensically. Himmelsbach was almost secondary in all of this. This involved other agents, experts, and resources. The effort began almost immediately after Crystal Ingram coughed up the last 4 bills the Ingrams had retained for personal 'commemerence'. This effort was managed by the FBI's forensic section, not by Agent Himmelsbach.

why would a rookie assigned to other FULL TIME duties who just picked up the case on his personal time be up to speed on anything in this case? It is remarkable he did as well as he did. I wouldnt be up to speed. You wouldnt either. Nobody would.

Think about it!

yes, a news article from the early period just after the hijacking. Forget which newspaper... Sluggo may know. Father and his son as I recall at some place on the Columbia. Boy came running back and reported a body in a tree, the father never went to check but called it in when they got home, deputies went to look with the father and boy and found nothing... this is one version I recall.

Is there anything about the money or money find that requires it was ever IN the Columbia? Fazio says high tide but his is a one dimensional response. He's reaching for the closest simple explanation (which does not fit the find data). Fazio hadnt the faintest clue there was money on his property (we assume?) until the Ingram find. One idiotic version of this story (I have been told) is that Fazio knew all along there was old (Cooper?) money out on his bar wasting away, but didnt call it in because .......... ??? Is there anything about a single high tide that could explain any of the forensic facts of the money at Tina Bar, or multiple high tides, or other common facts of Nature at Tina Bar stretched out over time of which high tides are but one component? Would any of this be different if the money arrived by land vs by the river?