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Everything posted by georger
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There was a cabin on the Columbia - owned by an individual who didn't live there. Was there a mop in the cabin? Was there a mop on the plane? Could Duane mop? This is VERY important!
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Its all my fault! Isnt that obvious! You obviously have not read Jo's posts about ANGEL ODELL. Read all posts about ANGEL ODELL (or was it ANGLE ORDEAL) and then come back and throw squash seeds (like you were at the end of the bar and five Hell's Angels were headed your way?)
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Actually Bruce, the F 106s onboard radar couldnt interrogate the 727's transponder, but the F 106 MA 1 fire control system had a data link to the immensely sophisticated USAF SAGE networked ground based radar system. This link allowed SAGE to control the interceptor's autopilot and direct it to a target painted by the SAGE radar! A transponder equipped 727 isnt exactly a stealth aircraft. Now that is interesting if true. Do you know this is true and not just conjecture? Can Bruce find someone to confirm? And why no records (with timestamps), would there be records, and will Snow drop Braden and Mojavi-Joe and turn his genius skills to this? Probably "no" across the board. But Lee's Dad WAS COOPER! He wouldnt be here otherwise! Gte busy Snow..
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Yepper. I was borne ready. However Farflung sees no humor or intelligence in anything I say. That must mean he's on Snowmman's and Josephino's payroll. I admire FarFlung's intelligence and his pluck but personal attacks were a surprise... I thought certain biases were obvious and didnt need pointing out? It's most unfortunate all way 'round.
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And why!, pray tell, do you address this to me - the one of the few left here who keeps trying to stay with the case through ................ posts like yours? You obviously have not been following this thread to know who and what are who and what. Nuff saide.
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Now that WAS a stupid post! And you addressed all of the right morons and trouble makers. We no longer need you at Penn State but Snowmman will give you one of his famous blowjobs. He already has. Keep up the good work.
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So I'm either going to follow that sage, kind and humorous advice so freely offered by Jerry Thomas or accept my technical, social and intellectual short comings and remove myself knowing I couldn't even achieve the vaunted rank of D B Cooper NOOB. "WE WANT YOU AT PENN STATE!" (jo Pat.)
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Is Antarctica a continent? If so, what are your plans? Do the Slovenians have an Ice Station Zebra down there? I think the Argentines have a few. Ricky Nelson's "Travelling Man" comes to mind... 377 (sheeesh...americans ) Of course Antartica is a continent! It's a land mass, not ice like the Arctic. Interesting fact: did you know it is the driest continent in the world? Quote The ice is 2 miles thick over a rock core...
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The FBI's "botching" of NORJACK was likely harmless error. I think Cooper threw law enforcement a real curve ball and that even the best investigation immediately after the crime might not have identified him. Theories about coverups and conspiracies are tempting, isnt yours a conspiracy theory!? "I think Cooper threw law enforcement a real curve ball ..." You give Cooper a lot of credit... IN A BIG UNIVERSE!
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First off, I asked them about their cows and if they ever went down to the beach. The answer was "no, never," but Al was quite taken-back by the question. "Who wants to know," he asked with some passion in his voice, so I told him, "Georger." Not sure if he recognized your name, G, but there you have it. Al also wanted to know why you were asking, so I told him about your concerns with hooves digging up the sand, money, etc. He dismissed it all as a never-happened kind of thing. I appreciate your asking. It pays to ask.. Im not too surprised by his response. I am aware he knows his business well. Its unfortunate about his cattle mutilations. That would be very unnerving.
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I know that! The witch is gone. Lets make the most of it! I think we must Give Farflung all the space he wants and needs. I know you will. I will even shut up. Im just saying .... as you would advise me likewise... He has my total support and everyone else here. The forum is his if he wants it!
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That is plain funny! Damn... and true.
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Georger I can not understand why you even acknowledged the fact that the flight path was hidden. You and I talked. I dont know what you are saying, Jerry. Yes, I know there MIGHT BE reasons why a true flight path was kept from the public. I have a few crude ideas why that might be the case and yes we did talk and I did hear what you said. But I dont know anything for certainty! And fact is Jerry until you have something in hand then there is an outside chance it is not exactly as some people close to you think or thought. But again you are MUCH closer to this than me and I give you full credit for that. Your time has not been in vain. We all know that! But, I have never talked to Rat etc personally. I dont have firsthand knowledge of anything. Plus, I generally keep what we talk about between us only! I spend a ton of time mulling things over and I dont think that is time wasted. There, its now public knowledge. But even though we talk I still have no firsthand knowledge of anything ..... until I have the damned data in my hand directly from you know who (which will never happen)! Somebody upstairs is reading this and laughing ................ Im not Jo Weber. I try like hell not to conjecture about things I dont have firsthand knowledge of ... and even then people deny things are true... What I HAVE SAID IS THAT THERE WAS A drift difference of 12 mile's. Check before Quating. Jerry I agree you never said "20 miles" straight out. I agree you have always maintained a fairly long drift from 225-235 to the NE which under the proper winds condx I could accept easily. (same figure Ckret seems to believe)? But damnit! Bohan said 166 degrees on his nose coming in! That is fact nobody can deny. I also have the NOAA charts which make 166 degrees very plausible as a localised turbulence cell (probably one of many such cells that day up the V23 corridor IF he was closer to V23 than you and others think they know is a fact.) The maps confirm these wx conditions. So I dont know what to say about 225-235 to NE in the area you search. If you come up with a piece of parachute tomorrow you will be famous and we will all be as happy as clams, and I will call Uncle Frank and have a party in VCR or Tacoma and you know the rest .............
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funny. Now if he landed near Orchards, caught the 8:42 train which goes straight down behind T-Bar and was mugged in that area, money found ... muggers run to find a boat to get across with the loot and lose some .... well ....
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That is an interesting correlation. Very good point! Could be a very important point showing experience or good instincts from something in his prior experience? This is also the kind of thing that could give rise to myths - this I wish we had spent more on this lights-on light-off issue (blinds down etc) just to get a real handle on it .............. when Larry was here! Thanks.
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I remember being told once that camo is not (as most people think) to try make you 'blend' with your surrounds, but because the eye is trained to see forms and the haphazard patterns on the camo effectively break up the 'expected' forms. I'm sure this can be explained much better, but hopefully you understand what i mean! Or, breaking up recognisable patterns is how one "blends in" ? It isnt just patterns, but patterns in motion and the eye/brain's ability to pull patterns out of forms in motion... likewise broken paterns tend to form the illusion of motion when there is none. It is more difficult to 'target' broken moving patterns ... in any setting especially under stress. The issue for Cooper is night vision, ie extra foveal vision. (Google "foveal vision"). We know that at one point Cooper asked for lights off in the passenger area of the plane, but this was never explained very thoroughly. Lights on. Lights off. When and at what times? Were the lights on in Cooper's area when Tina last saw and communicated with Cooper? We assume yes. Cooper also had the blinds pulled on the windows so outsiders could not see in (after they landed at SEA)? Cooper mentioned Tacoma from the air. Did he know Tacoma and its environs? (A relative of mine was involved in the search for Cooper at Tacoma as a result of Cooper's remark). Did Cooper know the VCR-PDX area? Or is Ckret's assertion literally true: that Cooper was flying blind, had no idea where he was, etc etc ? In any event night vision is involved for Cooper (extra foveal vision) where if you have no idea of the area you are bailing into at night,. that is a disadvantage. I thought Farflung's points about points of light pilots would look for when coming into the PDX area, was very good. It shows Farflung's experience and explains what Rat may have meant. Was Cooper operating from a similar experience base? Probably not.
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a white canopy. I thought Ckret verified this? He did. He spoke extensively about this after the Ariel find of a PINK canopy - you know the photo.
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A quick reply while I process the above - Excellent and appreciated. You remind me of two professional pilots who posted briefly ages ago, in this forum. Their analysis was very similar to yours. Your sudden entry here is most welcome!
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Any idea the exact location of that placard? Any clue about the free fall characteristics of a six inch squared piece of sheet plastic? yes. will PM you.
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yes, I have always said I thought Cooper would see skyglow from 10k feet especially with a ceiling of 3500-5000 ft, but you and others always said I was wrong. No you are arguing for it (because it suits your current needs?). One fact is sure. I have always said Cooper could see skyglow from VCR-PDX. Key word is "could". Did he? I have no idea what he saw especially if he was already out the plane near BTG. Rat said he could see the suburbs of Portland coming up, at night. That assumes lights. So if Rat saw lights from 10k feet why could Cooper not see lights? [edit] I also have the 6:00pm NOAA chart for 11-24-71 which clearly shows rotating cells (counter clockwiose) moving up the V23 corridor ... which is consistent with Bohan's report, ie turbulence. If you take the wx map at face value there were CCW rotating cells which anyone parachuting into that area may have encountered ... which again is consistent with Bohan's report of winds 'right on my nose' from 166* as he approached PDX. If Cooper bailed early or further east off V23 then maybe he didnt encounter these cells? Jerry says he didn;t BUT even Jerry agrees with the rotating cells (turbulence and cross winds) in that area at that time of year... which Bohan reported. It's something to keep in mind.
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Georger's random calcs for landing in the water assume there's nothing that attracts Cooper to one spot over another. The lights of Portland and Vancouver are an obvious attractor. Being attracted to those lights, dramatically increases the probability of landing in the water. Also note the plane didn't take the shortest path over the Columbia. It's curving around PDX lengthened the amount of time spent near the Columbia. I dont see your reasoning at all. From 10k feet the Columbia is an exceedingly small target compared to land mass, even as a dead drop without winds. You also have to take Cossey's chute into acount which further decreases the probability (for an unskilled person). Just as there is no forensic evidence they were far off V23, there is no evidence they flew parallel to the Columbia at lower than 10k feet for any extended period of time. And at PDX Bohan stated there were severe cross winds near the ground and he filed a report with Hastings about this - [edit] Let me also remind you that a number of people were strident (here) on Cooper not being able to see anything on the ground, from 305 due to the cloud cover - let alone do target selection. Now suddenly you are promoting it?
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What you're saying is that if the wind was against the wind of travel only, it wasn't that strong. But we know it was strong, so it must not have been against the direction of travel. We also know it must not have been with the direction of travel. Is that right? Bohan said winds from 166*. That puts drift to the NW. Larry said winds from 225-235* or drift to NE. There is the difference. If wind drift is more or less parallel to the Columbia vrs 235* to NE then yes, more time to hit water IFF he bails in that precise corridor, but how in hell does he! Now we are talking luck or skill. If we are talking skill that increases his chance of survival. How could money last 9 years at T-Bar, you ask? Good question. Especially if it was deposited outside the dredge deposit zone.
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Nice modeling of the canopy drift to Tena Bar. What are the dependant variables required to drift to Tena Bar versus 'float'? There is no forensic data which would indicate 305 deviating more than 3 or 4 miles from centerline of the assigned airway. Keep in mind Portland International was/is quite capable of watching their airspace and made no contact or mention of an aircraft so terminally lost. This being flown by a crew which just hours before made the same journey without incident and made the following position reports and navigated to Reno just fine. USCE Hydrologist Bradley placed float time from the Washougal to Fazios at 30mi, 14.7 hrs based on a float rate of 3ft/sec. Questions: 1. I sure agree there is no known forensic evidence 305 deviated much from V23 ... I want to be clear this is what you are saying? I assume YES? 2. How do you account for the "bump" at ~8:12 as distinct from oscillations? Do you have a physical explanation for the pressure bump, if it was a bump which I guess it was? (Bump as distinct from surge?) 3. How do you account for Rat saying: 'I could see the suburbs of Portland coming up...' ? 4. How and when do you think the money got to T-Bar? Even a personal guess .... ? 5. You refer to Cooper's "occupation"? What did you mean?
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Thank you...
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because Rat said it did - Rat's testimony and probably the testimony of others (along with radio tranbsmissions from this period) is the only thing that bracket's this period. Presumably radar data did not see Cooper jumping at a specific moment, but personally Im not even sure about that, because I am not sure anyone is telling (revealing)_ the whole truth! Larry says Rat said: '10 mins after 8:05, I could see the suburbs of Portland coming up ...' Jerry then says Rat said: 'Nope! We were 20 miles east of V23 and crossed at Troutdale ...' Bruce interviews Rat and forgets to ask! I have tried to talk to rat to ask myself but can never find him home: Im not sure Rat would tell me the truth even if I asked. Who am I! Tom thinks he has solved the question but is holding it as a proprietary patented Ace: Everyone seems to have an agenda up their sleeves! Ive said all along there was a third FP west off V23 and Snowmman suddenly posts the Dawson interview. I asked Jerry ages ago if he had ever searched WEST of V23 or WEST of Portland and he said "yes" with no results. Of course we already know Tosaw and others have poked around in this same area! Farflung now surfaces to bring up radar resolution and beam widths. ! What goes around comes around.