georger

[reply Do you know game theory? Can you do calculations in it? I studied game theory, and I used to be able to do calculations in it back in my university days, but not now.

interesting - self serving bastard just as I thought. People like that are still useful when turned.

Jo, By most accounts that bomb battery was a large 1.5 volt dry cell. It would not have been suitable for powering a two way radio. Ask any of the amateur radio operators who post here which include all your favorites, even Sluggo, Snow and Georger. You need a higher voltage than 1.5 volts for two way communication radios. I have never seen one that ran on 1.5 volts. 12 volts is common. You could make a converter but it would be a crazy idea with two six volt lantern batteries being widely available and easily connected in series for 12 volts. I'd love to think Cooper had a radio transceiver but I see zero evidence that he did. The battery is not a two way radio battery, believe me. 377 QRP only... imho.

Microeconomics 101

Those jumps in 1971 had the stairs removed, and a ramp inserted. I don't know where people are getting this possible prior knowledge of pressure bumps from, in 1971. Ckret maintained the "pressure bump" was caused by the stairs flapping back up after C's weight was off the stairs. But we have a second pressure effect caused by people parachuting through open holes in a moving aircraft, whether side hole or rear hole? 377 chime in ???

[We/I dont know much about any formal profile the FBI was using, outside of what H said and H was outspoken on what he thought. But Bruce seems correct about this, By 1980 and the money find the FBI was in a box unable to explain central facts in the case with new facts surfacing, eg Bohan, the money find etc. The excavation took place at Tina Bar and the FBI had a new explanation, then that began to erode. So many years have passed now its impossible to know what the FBi is saying, except as related by Jerry Thomas ... and Jerry Thomas is related the same mantra H had back in the 1971. Jerry even claims Carr is not up to speed. Who knows what the FBi is thinking today or if there even is an official viewpoint?] The language that was used was prison language, but he was polite. What language are you citing? Give examples?

Bruce Ive snipped your post to the above critical points, as I see this. I basically agree with everything you've said with a few minor exceptions - *Ideally, an investigator should approach a case with an open mind lead only by the evidence with no preconceptions and build a profile based on what the criminal did. This rarely happens however. Bias is a fundamental part of all investigation and it shows itself in the Cooper case very clearly. On the other hand, I think the FBI did better than many people believe and may have even come close to a breakthrough, without knowing it? That also happens in investigations. I remain convinced there is evidence we know nothing about which could prove very worthwhile. *Cooper dealt with the pressure, or so it appears. We really do not know what was going on under the surface with him internally. Training, as you point out comes in many forms. 9-11 proved that. Someone bent on suicide can keep calm. What stands out to me is the open opportunity Flight #305 presented if only for a brief period of time in a specific locale. Within that context Cooper chose the most vulnerable day supposedly acting out a "grudge". Out of a forest he chose a specific tree to use. Very likely Cooper's grudge was shared by others also emotionally charged. We donot know (no evidence) if the grudge was personal or socially shared including planning. It is worth noting that an informant would have been highly useful to Cooper if he did not have one. The FBI basically asserts Cooper acted alone without planning. The odds for that could be estimated. * "Can we tell, based upon Cooper's actions, did Danny think he was prepared to jump successfully?" Unless he was suicidal the answer has to be yes. The crucial word is "successful". Only Cooper could define that, but based on his actions throughout the whole event, I think "escapre" was paramount in his mind, even if it meant sacrificing money. That fact alone could account for the money at Tina Bar. The snag in that idea is the fact Danny waited so long for refueling. Why did he risk more time on the ground if his intent was to parachute immediately after takeoff near Seattle? And he did get cranky to leave. He had a chute on at takeoff. He immediately began working the door. But he waited for a full load of fuel which is not required if he does not intend to go the full flight. Maybe he wanted the plane to go the full route and be gone, for some reason (that in his mind might add up to confusion for those searching... which means he did not know parachuting the plane would cause a physical effect!), but if this is true it only enhances his ambition for an escape first and foremost. Cooper knew or suspected he was traveling south. If he could see the Moon and could find west he had a clock on time elapsing, if he knew when the Moon would set (which he could get from a newspaper). All you have to be is educated to make such guesstimates. One point I am confused about is the amount of actual communication that was going on between Tina and the cockpit, in behalf of Cooper. Somehow the plane got slowed to accomodate Cooper parachuting. If this was at Cooper's instigation then it applies to your question and would appear the person was trying to be successful in the jump. Somehow the plane got slowed and leveled to accomodate Cooper jumping. Whether this was initiated soley by the crew or through a series of communications (maybe only one?) between Tina and the cockpit via intercom, in behalf of Cooper, I am unclear about. If Cooper asked for the plane to be slowed, then what was his reference for thinking there was a need? Turbulence at the back? Just a guess on Cooper's part? If it doesnt go to Cooper's training then it must a part of his general intelligence and monitoring his own plans intending to jump, successfully. An indication he was not suicidal in the clear sense. Let me post this much and see where this goes - But I think you are doing perceptive work.

I'm surprised Larry actually got notified, if some random guy off the street walks in and starts babbling about John Collins. I thought Carr said they took the interview over the phone? I don't recall anything about the clerk showing up at the office. I had a novel thought. Maybe there was a John C Collins and he and Duane were two distinct persons! Collins didn;t know Duane at all but Duane somehow did knew Collins and even borrowed his name at times (without Collins knowing), and Collins was at the motel that night but not Cooper. Therefore neither Collins or Duane were Cooper! That would explain Jo's total hopeless confusion?

Snow, you said I agree that this most likely points to Cooper being knowledgeable about jumping. But it doesn't rule out him being a loadmaster for example - knowing about jumping and having experience are different things. That is exactly right. We drift back and forth between the two extremes of Cooper being highly skilled (Snowmman/Sluggo) vs. moron (Thomas), when in fact the bulk of the population falls in the middle. The only thing setting these two extremes is the personalities of the people doing the examining, which probably has nothing to do with Cooper and never did. Beyond what Cooper may have known or not known, it is HOW he knew whatever he knew that helps identify the person. People can learn about aircraft and parachuting any number of ways at different levels, with different consequences. But you cannot build a whole Theory around some extreme and expect anything but arguements to follow. Fact is, a lot of people who should know better are jumping to a lot of large conclusions in this case when in reality they only have partial facts. Silver nitrate on the bills from the FBI finger printing the bills is but one example. There is more to the story. People are very quick to form conclusions these days and more often than not they are totally wrong, and quite often wildly wrong. The people who do this here are well known -

another 377 cop out as I see this. Like some script copied straight of Entertainment Tonight. Consider this point of view, of you can? It amazes the living hell out of me that people supposedly informed about 'stealth' and SOG and special ops and all its various forms and presentations and the like, can't seem to recognise it when its presented, in clear unmistakable form. Except that if the President were to show up on your street in baggy pants and an old car you probably would not recognise him either! Is that's what's going on? You know stealth when it appears as an organised activity in some military context, you know stealth when you run across a hunter creeping through the woods, but youc ant recognise stealth when it buys a ticket at an airport in 1971 and hijacks an airplane! What's the fundamental difference in all these cases? This cant be a failure of people's IQ's. Its all stealth no matter how you cut a dice it? Stealth requires some basic skills, whether consciously or unconsciously applied? Am I correct? Jerry would require Cooper to have an IQ of 60 for Jerry's theory to work? H likewise. Carr isnt far behind? What is there about a theory of this case that requires this rather extreme assumption concerning basic intelligence of a person? (The DOD applied similar logic to Jap pilots just before Pearl Harbor!) All the smart people were on one side of the fence - Cooper the retard was alone on the other side of the fence. That is the official story being sold. If the glove doesnt fit - you must acquit! --------------------------------------------------- The above becomes even more plausible in the clear light of day, today. The element of comic books has been added. I used to think Tintin was evidence. Now its a sign of dementia! Jerry's theory (the FBi theory) requires it. Cooper: IQ of 60 and jumps mindlessly, and reads comic books. Does Jerry also have evidence Cooper was an orphan, a waif - something else prejudicial must be present to gird up the FBI theory. And worst of all, Jerry & the FBI have the facts to back the theory up. Only they have the facts. We don't. We can't! Next we will be told that Mucklow actually saw a copy of Tintin "in" the Cooper's briefcase. I knew it! - - - back to Snowmman's regular scheduled Cooperphelia programming -

McCoy, from the witness perspective, didn't act so different from Cooper. I don't think we can say jumper or Whuffo. Not enough data. You never know what luck Jerry may have on his Washougal treks. 377 another 377 cop out as I see this. Like some script copied straight of Entertainment Tonight. Consider this point of view, of you can? It amazes the living hell out of me that people supposedly informed about 'stealth' and SOG and special ops and all its various forms and presentations and the like, can't seem to recognise it when its presented, in clear unmistakable form. Except that if the President were to show up on your street in baggy pants and an old car you probably would not recognise him either! Is that's what's going on? You know stealth when it appears as an organised activity in some military context, you know stealth when you run across a hunter creeping through the woods, but youc ant recognise stealth when it buys a ticket at an airport in 1971 and hijacks an airplane! What's the fundamental difference in all these cases? This cant be a failure of people's IQ's. Its all stealth no matter how you cut a dice it? Stealth requires some basic skills, whether consciously or unconsciously applied? Am I correct? Jerry would require Cooper to have an IQ of 60 for Jerry's theory to work? H likewise. Carr isnt far behind? What is there about a theory of this case that requires this rather extreme assumption concerning basic intelligence of a person? (The DOD applied similar logic to Jap pilots just before Pearl Harbor!) All the smart people were on one side of the fence - Cooper the retard was alone on the other side of the fence. That is the official story being sold. If the glove doesnt fit - you must acquit! Let the laughing commence.

Stop thinking about other hijackers, experts, etc. Start thinking about Cooper! Cooper is the person who did the crime, not McCoy, Cossey, H., Bohan, Rat. Schafner, etc etc ect etc etc etc... All the experts were wrong about Pearl Harbor! According to your point of view Cooper was nothing more than a mindless rat running around in some experiment run by . . . you fill in the blank! He trapped himself mindlessly and met his maker... This case has been open to endless speculation but there is no speculation about what Cooper did and why he was able to do what he did. Cooper's success was no accident. You will say he had no success because he died, but you are not Cooper. You dont even know who Cooper was so how in hell do you know his mind? I have come to believe this case will never be solved because the mindset to solve it does not exist and the data may long be gone. The case will continue to sit just where it is, perhaps forever.. in end less repititions of the same soap opera that has exist around this case since day-1. But the context in which the hijacking happened is very clear history now. You are part of history.

You seem to be missing the whole point. Cooper's whole point. He DID jump. Forget all the mumbo jumbo about what military people or other people would do or would not do. That is irrelevant. Cooper did it. He did the hijacking and he made the jump. You and others may say he was crazy but that does not undo what Cooper did. COOPER MADE THE JUMP@! It is the failure of H and others to come to terms with what Cooper actually did happen that has fundamentally stalled this case in technical second guessing from the outset. Cooper's crime was a LO-TECH crime that defeated technology and technically trained people wrapped up in their technology and systems and stereotypes. That may be all this crime was about in 1971 in the midst of national tourmoil over Vietnam and other basic societal issues. Cooper slipped in and out, under the radar! It may have cost him his life or it may not have. Nobody has any proof otherwise. Even if he died he may have succeeded from his point of view and proved his point. You can claim to know differently, but you have not one shred of proof for your thesis. Not one. Cooper's reasoning is all that matters in this. What anyone else thinks or does not think is almost irrelevant. People are missing the forest looking at trees.

didnt see any loafers. But several 'boots' appear to be steel belted on the sides, jumping boots? Other than that I saw nothing unusual. Did Snow see Yeshua in the shoes? georger: What was your expectation before the pics on what something to jump with, would look like, if the pants legs covered the ankle? did you have any idea what people jumped with in the '60s? Why the interrogation? Are you off meds? The photos convey about what I expected and have seen before. Satisfied? Got any more smartass stupid remarks to make tonight?

ah, you lied about Tom Kaye getting $50k. Go figure.

Don't know what to say bout the shoes. Can't see much detail on my monitor. What are your thoughts Snow? didnt see any loafers. But several 'boots' appear to be steel belted on the sides, jumping boots? Other than that I saw nothing unusual. Did Snow see Yeshua in the shoes?

The FBI did question many Airbourne qualified personell to include SF,Seals ,Special opp's and many other's . The research you and other's are doing is great. But please bare in mind all this has been done in the past. I don't mean to say all research is fruitless. I do believe something could have been missed. However the answer as to who Cooper was will not be found by thinking Cooper was a military man. Yes he may have Known someone in the military. But It is a better guess that he new someone that worked at Boing/or in the aircraft Industry or new some one that worked with aircraft, It is obvious that he did not no anything about parachutes or sell insurance. Most airliner's fall out of the sky 160 Knot's . Take off speed is aproximately 160mph (th lo speed)depending on the load.Cooper must have known something to request the speed he did . Still he did not no enough to make a jump that was safe or how to dress. Jerry So are you saying there is no point to even looking at this case - the case is solved? That seems to be what you've been saying all along. It does seem pretty obvious to me this has become a small group affair, so I guess the message is: everyone else including me is just wasting our time. You need to make a public announcement!

QuoteI just finished speaking with Rex Jaco. Very nice guy - a gentleman. He confirmed that he was interviewd by the FBI in the Cooper case back in the early 70s. Not sure when exactly. He was stationed at Ft. Bragg, having come back from "Nam in 1970 sometime. He said he was selected by the feds because of his age and physical characteristics, and being "airborne qualified." "I guess they put all the airborne guys in a computer and my name was one of those that got spit out." Rex said the feds asked him general questions, such as where we was on the night, etc. The feds also asked him about another guy "from 187" but Rex couldn't remember the vet's name. reply] This should dispell a few myths promoted here that the FBi wasn't on the job. Good report Bruce - Do you still intend to talk to Rat again?

Cook has been full of promises, for years. What can one say? Ashes to ashes. Dust to dust. Coast-to-Coast. But I wouldnt take his note. Cash only.

I am aware of what you posted. We have a different interpretation. Everyone got what they wanted/needed in the end?

seems we are saying the same thing. take a break.. ???

How do you reconcile that view then with Braden just returning to the US and being a truck driver? You're saying he's too dramatic to hijack...i.e. you say "He wouldnt waste time on such a petty stunt" Yet you're willing to accept that his life post vietnam was just drinking, wife-beating, and truck driving? (edit) Geoger: I'm trying to understand your profiles, but they don't seem to include all available information. You see what I mean? (edit) after all of Braden's jumping...do you think Braden ever jumped again after he returned to the U.S? If not, how do you reconcile that with your profile of him? (edit) It's interesting to muse if Braden's family situation mirrored McCoy's closely. Young kids + bitch wife. Braden's truck driving is an interlude from his main occupation, obviously. Some people spend time in an abbey! (others wind up in a ward for a time). The family dynamics are similar - thats not unusual.

What makes all SOG people special is their very strong sense of self preservation and the skills to effect that, under very adverse conditions the normal person would not tolerate (much less like).

no definately not. he would have demanded $500k for a start. Destination: Libya Why Libya? in 1971, Ted B. Braden had a relationship in the U.S. (PA), effectively and maybe really, married to a woman with 3 kids from a prior marriage. A rocky relationship, that dissolved at some point in the '70s. Why would he go to Libya? Georger: I think your profile on Braden might be skewed because you're missing some info? Or weighting the assorted info differently than I am. Braden had a very strong ego, in the face of others with strong ego's and of similar skills. Underneath Braden had a different agenda. I see Braden as being loyal only to himself. He would merge with others for a common cause only so long as it benefited himself and the minute it doesnt for any extended period of time, he is AWOL in a serious way. Waugh would classify this as a weakness, from a leadership point of view. They brought Braden back in but only after serious effort. He had needed skills. Braden is a lose cannon. That is what attracts you to him as a candidate who would do a hijacking and possibnly get away with it. But frankly, the Cooper hijacking is beneath Braden's level. He wouldnt waste time on such a petty stunt especially if the personal risks were too great. Braden is a skunk but not stupid or crazy (as McCoy was). In the end self preservation means the most to Braden, over country, family, and everything. Libya if he felt he had burned all bridges... nobody could get to him there. It would give him time and space to think and negotiate ... a deal.

The Raleigh cigs angle is worth some followup. Bourbon too. Does anyone besides me think Cooper may have been an alcoholic as evidenced by drinking immediately prior to a very dangerous jump? 377 yes worth exploring... why did he move to sit on the outside (west facing) window?