smokin99

Lol...that short response thing worked out real well. My eyes are glazing.....Maybe you should hire an editor :) *JOKE* Like I said before -- though I might as well be talking to the wall -- all anecdotal, no proof -- nothing in your responses changes that fact or the fact that KC has physical hurdles to overcome that you gloss over. You can have the last word if you want cause I'm done. We've beat this dead horse way too many times. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

This statement explains everything. You truly do not read anyone else's posts..

This statement explains everything. You truly do not read anyone else's posts..

Oops... your post made me realize that I put wrong info as to author....correction.. Source: D.B. Cooper: The Real McCoy, by Bernie Rhodes. Research by Russell Calame. Salt Lake City, Utah: University of Utah Press (1991). but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

lol...I don't know whether there was any great plan for the bologna ..I think he just liked to steal stuff. I keep an open mind, but I find it difficult to believe that Duane got nabbed for all these relatively petty crimes... but for the grandaddy of all capers, he didn't get caught. I mean, statistically saying, the odds are slim....... [inline duane_larceny.jpg] but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Is that really McCoy? I don't remember seeing that pic. He always appears older than he was. Jeopardy time. Answer: dichotomy. Question: Describe Richard F. McCoy in one word The real McCoy's story is strange enough without the added BK interjections and Rambo pictures. Married, father of two, two Army stints receiving several commendations, National Guard, devout Morman Sunday school teacher, student at BYU studying law enforcement, dreamed of being FBI/CIA........to hijacking a plane, sentenced to 45 yrs prison, escapes, then dies in a shootout. Though naturally......some people claim there's a woman to blame....

Well there's that... But if you read articles of the day, Cossey was not always advocating the position that Cooper didn't make it. He even said that it wouldn't require someone with a lot of experience. As for protecting the image and discrediting the guy who beat the system - that hasn't worked out too well for them. They obviously need to go to plan B.

I'm just not wanting to think it is as cut and dried as 'Cossey lied". i guess i just don't get why he would deliberately lie. In all ways that would concern the investigation / the media / as an expert witness, Cossey was more relevant to the case than the owner. So there was no reason to lie. All the FBI had to do is go and ask Mr Hayden questions about the chute and he would no doubt quickly tell them that they needed to call Cossey. The possibility of more than one set of chutes has been mentioned. Or maybe, his perception is I put the chute together. That's my chute. Perhaps the media and subsequent agents assumed that the chutes came directly from Cossey and, over time, Cossey just quit correcting them or providing all of the details. Or maybe over time his memories just got mixed up.It happens. We laugh about anglers whose fish keep getting bigger with each re-telling. Or maybe it's all of the above. Since Cossey packed it, if his description of the chute as told to the FBI is accurate, then I'm inclined to give him a pass. That he didn't actually send the chutes does not take away from his knowledge, qualifications, or from being the resident expert on Cooper chute questions. I tend to think the onus is on the FBI to keep the stories straight on something that seems as clear cut as this. But that's just me. I could be wrong.

Snowmman brought up an interesting point about getting the chutes from two different places -- basically the guy providing the chest packs knew nothing about the guy providing the back packs.... this explains why they provided chest rigs that were unusable, in that neither could attach to either of the back rigs. So based on the above ...... whuffo question time........ The front chute was a reserve - meaning it could be activated if the back chute doesn't work, correct? The pictures I'm seeing look like it doesn't have a harness like the back chute does. Is that correct? Are there any straps or is the only attachment by hooking it to the back chute? So..... if both chest rigs were essentially useless for jumping out of an airplane since they can't be attached to the back chute or the jumper, why do some make a big deal out of the fact that the dummy chute was gone in Reno and that this somehow speaks to his knowledge/experience or lack thereof? Seems like if it's not usable, it's a moot point and you can't really draw any inferences about anything from the dummy chute. I'm not a jumper, but I think that I would be able to figure out that I needed a little more security then just holding on to it. It's useless, I toss it. And if i was experienced, I imagine that I would be thinking that they were trying to pull a fast one on me. That ticks me off, I toss it. Either way -- I'm not using it as chute cause I can't use it as a chute. End of mystery. Help me out, jumpers. What am i missing here?

Are you sure Carr reverted back to the FBI documents? Both posts that I quoted above are dated before the posts that reference the chutes as coming from Cossey. I think Carr mentioned that he was reading from the files originally when he made the above posts. And the post reads as if the rigger and owner are different people. After Carr talked with Cossey is when Carr's stance on the chutes changed. See dates. That is why I originally copied those posts - to point out the different versions coming from Carr. So many questions..... Why did Carr go with a 38 year old memory as opposed to the written record in front of him? Was the documentation so screwed up that he just didn't trust it? Did Mr. Cossey convince him by virtue of his personality? Were more than two back chutes delivered to the airport? If so, where are those chutes if Cossey didn't get them back? Did Geoffrey Gray know about Hayden's chutes by the time he talked with Cossey? Did he ask Cossey about the discrepancy?

Another look at the Cossey saga courtesy of Miss Vicki.... Interesting excerpts below from here: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/culture/db-cooper-parachute?click=news.......... .....according to the Bureau’s original Cooper case files, many of the lead agents hunting for the hijacker were convinced that Cooper was a master skydiver if he indeed pulled off the jump. Agents were so gung-ho on this theory they went through over 14,000 registration cards for skydivers in the Pacific Northwest. The Bureau even sent undercover agents to a skydiving contest across the border to Canada to look for suspects. ...... .......According to documents that outline his Bureau interviews, Cossey told agents that with only six or seven jumps with an instructor the hijacker could have landed safely in the forests of the Pacific Northwest. ..... .... Cossey..... was also upset that after all these years, the FBI never returned to the chutes to him. He had packed them in his garage, he told me, manufacturing each of the chutes from spare parts and military surplus. ...... Read more: The Man Who Believed in D.B. Cooper - Esquire Follow us: @Esquiremag on Twitter | Esquire on Facebook Visit us at Esquire.com You know, I don't begrudge Geoffrey Gray at all -- He seems like a nice guy and I enjoyed his book. I actually wish he'd gone into even more detail in his book on the case files, and I'd buy a follow-up. That said, I'm kind of seeing Bruce's point on this one....I mean I can see, sort of, how they can justify a "citizen's sleuth team" - (even though I wonder about a couple of the team's conclusions - I still appreciate all of their efforts, time, and that they published their work for the rest of us) - but just how does one get special dispensation to pore over the FBI files in order to write a book? Did he go through FOIA channels or did someone slip him in through the back door? Good for him that he was able to gain access -- if you can get it, go for it -- but it is one of those curious things about this case that make you go hmmmmm. In other words, FBI...release all of the files for the rest of us peons. LOL...we might not solve the case, and the chance of conviction is slim to none even if we did, but you could keep this forum going for another 12 years.

The Seattle FBI agent said, on this thread, that the FBI consulted Cossey and two others, in addition to other things. No, he didn't mention names -- go figure . Doubtless they told him to keep their names away from the public and out of this crazy house.

Nice article find. Well, you can see how Cossey became the go-to guy for the FBI, and it makes perfect sense. He was the only one to see the canopies. Norman Hayden has said he bought them packed, and never observed the re-packing(s) personally. I think Cossey's only mistake may have been with the Amboy chute. He may have been right about the chute not being Cooper's, but the choice to use the silk reason might not have been the best choice as the reason he gave. Well, we've discussed all that ins and outs of the silk thing before so I'm not gonna go there tonight - except to say...my main problem with dismissing Cossey's silk statement out of hand is -- based on what I've read -- certified master riggers know fabrics. It's part of their job and part of their knowledge base when it comes to certification and such. So you'd think that his opinion would be based on that knowledge. Now I don't know, maybe the training and knowledge is not as rigorous as I've been led to believe, but one would hope that it's not like just any ol guy saying it is or isn't silk, you know? but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Part of newspaper article Oregonian, Nov 26, 1971. 2 excerpts a little easier to read While it is very possible there was more than one set of back chutes, looks more likely that the whole conumdrum just hinges on different perspectives of the same truth that probably got a little tangled over the years. Makes sense....Even though the wedding cake is bought and paid for by the happy couple, if I baked the cake I will probably tell you that is MY wedding cake. And I can tell you all the ingredients and how it was made, and how hot the oven had to be. The bride and groom owners only know how to cut it and eat it ......(and these days grind it in each other's faces.......who the hell started that stupid tradition?). Likewise, who will the Dept of health want to talk to when everyone at the wedding gets food poisoning from eating said cake? Simple analogy but you get my drift.... but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

So I'm not seeing working with a lathe with a tie on -- so assuming that it's Cooper's tie, would one be more likely to put Cooper in the "I'm pretending to be an executive so i can carry this bomb in a briefcase....hmmm..what does every well dressed executive wear......gee I found this clip on tie at the goodwill...I'll use it" camp (meaning that the tie has no meaning) or is he someone who worked close enough to pure Ti it to get it on him? but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

What a load of crap. A copy of blast. Really?? Basically calling Cossey a liar without, I might add, including any of the possible reasons why that might not be? A report to FBI on Christiansen? here's my number, Call me, please?? Really?? Like I said....It appears that you're either trying to insinuate yourself into an investigation, trying to gain your 15 mins, get internet traffic, or you're just totally clueless, tasteless, or mean. Under the guise of being concerned about there being no information. What a load of crap. Give the police time to do their jobs. Maybe there's no news because.....wait for it....THERE IS NO NEWS. Damn what a mind blower. Oh yeah, I remember you were one of those that was also posting pictures of all the wrong suspects from the bombing. lets see -- that one was because you were doing a public service cause the FBI asked everyone too. Uh, no they didn't - they asked for folks to look at their pics and CALL THE FBI if they saw anything suspicious. Not convict a couple of hapless guys through the media. You've given shameless self promotion a whole new meaning. And I'm not just talking about making money from your book so don't post up all your regular bs about adventure bks not making any money from the book. I've figured it out - you want to be the guy -- and you want to make sure you get there first. yep, No matter how you spin it -- What a load of crap **lol and shaking her head** Seriously, you never cease to amaze me. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Well actually you did ask why the FBI didn't talk to Hayden about the Amboy canopy. See your prior post and my response. I'm not saying there were more chutes on the plane. What I'm just saying is that additional chutes procured would explain why Cossey says he sent chutes also. It would also explain why others say that chutes came from Cossey's house. And, it makes perfect sense that they were using multiple sources considering that they were racing against time trying to get some chutes as the hijacker was getting impatient about how long it was taking. The point being - just because four chutes went on the plane - doesn't mean that more weren't procured. You don't honestly think that we have been privy to all the interactions or the documentation of that night? So did Cossey receive any chutes back? If not, if there were additional chutes, where are they now? Who knows - maybe they are hanging out with the cigarettes that were also so well documented?

Basically still a leap though. Cause all of that doesn't mean there wasn't more than one set of back chutes. All the reasons why: It would seem pretty likely that they would be putting out feelers to multiple sources. We are seeing one or two pages from a set of at least 228 if you believe those are page numbers at the bottom. We don't know if there were other pages associated with other parachutes. We don't really know that document is associated with the actual hijacking. It could be a document associated with the claim he said he filed to get his chute back. Didn't he he tell Bruce that he got paid rather quickly, but he had to file suit to get his chute back. That also might explain why only the back chutes are described in this document - i wondered why they didn't describe all of the chutes. Actually, on reading the document again it looks like it could be fact-finding to determine ownership. And, finally, to your original question, regardless of ownership, from what you've said that Hayden said, seems like Cossey would still be a lot more likely to be able to identify the canopy than Hayden would. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

More on the tie from the Frosty one's files..... Tom found bismuth on the tie, but didn't understand what that might mean. http://www.citizensleuths.com/misc-particles.html You know when they have to setup something to be turned on a lathe? They sometimes attach it to something else, that they then bolt into the lathe to turn the thing while the cutting instrument is applied to it. That's the mention of "boss" here: http://www.metallurgvanadium.com/titaniumpage.html "Titanium turnings may be contaminated with lead or bismuth, which are in the brazing alloy that is often used to fix a boss onto a piece of titanium prior to machining it." So it is interesting that bismuth was found.. As in previous post, info was obtained from snowmman's research - I think it's good info to pass on for discussion. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

I had some problems with the rubber band stuff myself.

LOL....I'm starting to agree with the more than two back packs scenario. It was Thanksgiving Eve, they were calling every Tom, Dick, and Harry that they could to find parachutes and probably ended up with more than they needed. Maybe everyone is telling the truth as they know it. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

How do you know they didn't? It's been noted via media accounts and on here via Carr that the FBI consulted others besides Cossey. One post specifically said two others. Maybe you should google "Master Rigger" in order to partly answer your question. Cossey might have been consulted, not only for his knowledge of the Cooper chutes, but also for his knowledge of fabric and chutes in general....just sayin. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Hi Sailshaw, I will post some info pertaining to this when I get home this evening but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

I don't think there is dispute that Hayden owned them (at least one of them) (See the pdf file, plus the Hayden chute's serial number matches the serial number posted by ckret (from the intact chute that was left on the plane) I also don't think there is dispute about who packed them AND who probably had knowledge of them - Cossey was the rigger, it was Cossey's seal. The only dispute is that the story changed from what was in the FBI file (chutes came from Issaquah and hayden) to chutes came from Issaquah and Cossey. The pdf and Carr originally say that Hayden had the two chutes in question and put them in the cab. Tosaw says that the cab picked them up from Boeing where Cossey had left them. Cossey (and Carr revised) says that the two in question came from Cossey's house. My only point about this whole issue was how can we expect journalists (and armchair detectives) to get it right when the story changes from the FBI. I was originally calling Bruce's report into question because he claimed that Cossey was saying that the chutes came from him. I asked if Cossey ever said that or was it just what was reported? I mentioned that Carr said that two of the chutes came from Hayden. Then I find through further reading that Carr changed the story after talking to Cossey - essentially throwing out the written record. Doesn't make the original story completely wrong necessarily, but it is a change from the written record and deserves at least a wonder why? I suspect Tosaw's version is likely as near to the truth as not. Namely that the airline/FBI called Cossey and he arranged for the chutes to be picked up from Boeing or from Hayden. Over the years, I imagine the memory got honed down to "they called and i provided them with the chutes". I heard once that memories are just another way of reliving the event - it's like the memory is an actual event itself and everytime we remember, it changes in some way. I can't explain this well without looking it up (it's a memory thing , but maybe you get my drift. I suspect that as much as Mr. Cossey might have gotten tired of the annual press and all, at some level he probably got a kick out of it. As well he should. His 15 mins and all. The other point well made by Bruce is that Cossey was in a position of expert advisor to the FBI regarding the chutes and whether Cooper survived or not. I would think that level of input to a criminal case should require a certain amount of "voir dire" for want of a better word and, if his memory didn't entirely match the stuff that was in the file, maybe a re-check of the evidence would be in order. Though again, I don't dispute his knowledge of the chutes, the fabric, or expert opinion. Maybe that knowledge was all that was of concern at the time to Carr and he was less concerned with logistics. Just things that make you go hmmm, but i've beat this horse in the ground...so I'll yield the floor. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Discussion points: It appears that there was very little evidence left on the plane. While not 100% sure that the tie belonged to Cooper, the probability is reasonably high and it's all we've got left. Apparently, there were particles on the tie which Tom Kaye and Co. identified as pure titanium. On his website, he states that pure titanium would not have been used in the mfg of aircraft (military or otherwise),(only titanium alloy). This would include the Boeing SST project. From this data, the interpretation was made by the CS team that Cooper did not work in the aircraft industry. So.. if we stipulate that the tie was Cooper's, seems like the pure titanium could help narrow down the pool of suspects. Snowmman mentioned that he has a document that shows that pure titanium was used in the Boeing SST project. I would be interested in seeing it. Anyone else? Thoughts? Discussion? but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill