smokin99

It's hard to believe the FBI would have lost primary evidence for one of their most pubilized cases ever. Having said that.... The only physical proof we see of a Cooper money list is the alpha-numeric list. The Tena Bar money is the only physical evidence of the Cooper bills and they are bundled randomly. Possibly suggesting....you know what I mean. If the bills were randomly bundled by the bank, I have a hard time believing the FBI would lose? the Bank's start/stop control list or a copy of the control list. If they don't have a control list there is no way to verify the bank bundling sequence of the money found at Tena's Bar. Eliminating the possibilty of....you know what I mean. LOL...Testy - just what are you trying to say?? That after pondering for days over serial numbers, we are right back where we started from - without a clue? I feel your pain - unfortunately, this case is basically full of non-verifiable stuff. Parachutes, money, flight plans, descriptions, evidence, memories...I could go on....But nothing goes to waste. In 3 years someone else will say "what about the serial numbers on the Ingram money?"....and someone else will say "read the thread - Testxyz researched that a long time ago"

If "in-order" refers to alpha-numeric and the FBI was able to determine which serial numbers were left in the bank, then seems like there would also have been a list of serial numbers by bundle - not just the start and stop numbers. Barring that, then someone had to go through each bundle that was left at the bank and check off the bills left against the master list. The other alternative is that the alpha-numeric list was also the way in which they were bundled. Did the bank have the resources to record and sort the bills by serial number using any other means except manually? I don't know - still skeptical that someone at a bank went through and manually sorted 12,500 bills into alpha-numeric order by serial number -- it would be hard enough to go through and list all of the serial numbers, plus that would kind of contradict that "random" word. Sure would be nice to have that film or to know more about the way banks generally handled contingency money like this. I recently read that banks started taking out insurance against the potential kidnapping of their key people in early 70s - so I don't doubt that they had funds in place for ransom money. Jo's emails aren't the only things that go "poof" in this case. You do have to start wondering about the stuff that folks say is missing. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

If we are not on the same page...this is What i'm saying..... Imagine the bank had 100 stacks of 20's with 99 random bills in each stack. They also have 100 index bills in alpha-numeric order set aside. As they bundle or wrap the bills, each of the stacks get 1 of the index bills on top. I got that - I just don't know why they would do that if the rest of the bills were random. Why not just record the bill that is randomly on top of each bundle and then sort them alpha-numerically? There's your index. I'm just not seeing the benefit behind taking the time to count out 99 bills in each stack so I can put a random bill on top that I have pre-selected to be my index. Maybe if the bills were consecutive, but they were not. Plus if I took the time to do this at all I wouldn't start from the middle of the list of bills. I'd start with the "A"s......

I'm the never say die type - try to give em the benefit of the doubt - that they might just be holding something back - but I don't know Georger........I'm sorta thinking you may be on to something....

L55 479 078B 63A is CORRECT!.....Thanks for looking! 12 bills apart is by far the closest of the thirty serial numbers I've come up with. If each of the two L55 bills was on top of a bundle, that represents 4K of the 6K Tena Bar money. I would think there is some significance to it. Maybe there is some rhyme or reason to the importance the top or bottom bills for Bank bundle management. Tom Kaye says the microfilm show stop/start serial numbers on each bundle. Maybe the bank stores the bundles in alpha-numeric order based on the top bill only. While the internal bills are random. Like they chose a run of L55 bills (or a run from page 30 that includes the two L55 bills) to put on the top of each bundle. My only problem with the L55s being the beginning or end of a bundle - seems like there would be either no spread between the numbers or a 99 bill spread between them. plus just can't get around the wider distribution of the other numbers. I'm not seeing your top bill scenario - what would be the point in that? But you might be right that the bills could be generally random but with small runs of "consecutive" (such as it is) listed numbers throughout - especially with the L's because the L's make up approx 75% of the bills - maybe a little more. (That's a rough guess based on flipping through pages. I did not count all of the columns).

It seems the Packet/Bundle? of bills would be stuck together like the Oregonian pic shows and he could only read the outer SN. The Serial Number on top of Ralph's packet is L55 376 548B (1963A) The Serial Number from the Oregonian pic is. L55 459 079B (1963A) There are 10,000 serial numbers and these two outer bundle numbers are probably within 60 serial numbers of each other on the list. I need to verify when I find page 30. WHAT ARE THE ODDS OF THAT???? I'm confused...in one paragraph you say "The Serial number is L55 479 078B (1963A)" then you say "The Serial Number from the Oregonian pic is L55 459 079B (1963A)" Is the last one a typo? In Tosaw's book, the numbers are listed in order and those that you list L55 479 078B 63A and L55 376548B 63A are actually only 12 bills apart. There is no L55 459 079B (1963A). Regardless, To me, I'm just not seeing a cluster here - and since there is no way to know that the numbers were listed as bundled it's hard to see any real conclusion to be drawn based on the numbers we're seeing. I don't know but I'm betting random means random and someone sorted this list after the fact. But.....even though I'm not sure that this is not a wild goose chase..

Wouldn't have worked. The swindle charges aren't lesser included offenses under the air piracy charge. You could be tried and convicted for both without violating double jeopardy. I found it very surprising that a seasoned journalist could be swindled so easily. 377 Yeah -- I think the guy that wrote the editorial was just alluding to the fact that a prosecutor would have a hard time making the case to the jury and was not speaking from the legal aspect of things. Could of been tongue in cheek, but interesting twist, anyway. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Does ANYONE have knowledge of the copying equipment in 1971. NO WAY could they have copied all of those bills after the demand was made for 20's and 200K. There was over 200K sitting there waiting for something just like this to happen. In fact it was just a little over 200K sitting in that vault - wonder if Cooper knew this? Well, it makes sense - at least to me. The bank did not copy or repack those bills - time was important. The money WAS there for just such and event! All the authorities had to do was go get it after one of 2 bank clerks fumbled over the unlocking of the safe For yrs I have read this stuff about the money being copied after Cooper made his demands knowing it just was NOT possible in 1971 for such a machine to be available at the location of the money. There was more than 200k on hand - all they had to do was check the numbers of the remaining monies to compile the numbers on the SKYJACK bills.. I would have to go back and look this up, but what I remember from several accounts is that bills were on ready and all they had to do was copy them. One account was that the bank had $240000 set aside, and they got 200,000, but I don't remember where that came from. So might be myth. ANYWAY.... it's not like they had to copy them one at a time. 1970s was in the day of keypunch and machines that could copy a lot of cards at one go. I know that we have a lot more technology now, but it's not like they were having to write down the numbers down with quill and sheep's blood, for crying out loud.

I'm not saying they did not remember him. Maybe they did. Maybe he gave off a certain hijacker smell. But last ticket sold and last to board is not a reason to remember someone. First, if you are a ticket seller, you have no way of knowing that is the last ticket that you will sell so why would that even register? You would just assume that he is one of many. Was this the only flight out of the airport that the ticket agent might have been processing? I doubt it. Additionally, how do you know that Cooper's was the last ticket sold. I don't remember reading that, but I haven't read everything, that's for sure.

Has this been posted before? Mr. Shutter - this isn't you, is it? Click on the Vector 23 hyperlink in the middle of the page - not the video ad.

Yes and at least one newspaper editorial in the day wondered if that wasn't the best way to beat the system - get convicted and serve probation or a couple of years for the lesser fraud crime reasoning they would have a heck of a time coming back on you for the real crime -- since you had already been convicted of basically what amounts to making a false confession of that crime.

I confess...after reading the link Vicki posted, I had to look up the word airdrome. Probably what we in the south call an airfield. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Re: Email stating "Hal Mount, the agent who checked him in" I might be mistaken but I believe the following to be accurate based on historical and recent accounts... Hal "Williams", was the gate agent, not the ticket agent. The ticket agent was Dennis Lysne. Not calling anyone out - I realize that it's been a long time and names can be forgotten ....and lots of people think Hal Williams was the ticket agent. From everything that I've read, he was not. According to this article, Hall Williams was the Ticket Agent. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=128759; It says he was the "ticket agent at the gate". I think that's the person that checks/takes the boarding passes or tickets at the gate. But my understanding is the one that sold the ticket (and probably wrote the name) was Dennis Lysne. I will post a source if I get a chance tonight. I found these postings about Lynse from the first thread. JackWilson scribes a page from Himmelsbach's book. See url. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2945865#2945865 Thanks. I also found two Oregonian articles that mentions Lysne, one from 1973 and one from 1986. Both articles say he was the ticket agent. I think in the case of the title "ticket agent" - yeah it's probably semantics - they are both agents and both handle the tickets and, hey - I'm not entirely sure that I would bet the farm on a description from either since there was really no reason for either to remember one passenger out of how many they see in the course of a day?? On the other hand, and if my memory serves, they both said they noticed him and remembered certain characteristics about him that day. So maybe they did. That said, gate agent vs ticket agent can be an important distinction when you "possibly" have someone claiming that the handwriting on the ticket has been compared against the agent's handwriting. Cause if he's talking about Hal Williams - he might need to start over. Now to be fair, Grey Cop hasn't clarified his post yet so maybe I'm reading too much into his post.

I went back and read the Ckret comment again and your right. I'm up to 18 serial numbers and a odd pattern has developed. My take from Gray book is the bank stored the bills in $2000 bundles with paper wraps. It would seem logical to presume the bank bundled the bills in Alpha-Numeric order as listed on the microfiche. Afterall this money was set aside for an occassion like a hijacking. Having said that.....the 18 serial numbers I have come across are found in 18 different bundles, if they were once arrange alpha-numerically like I think. 18 different serial numbers from 18 different bundles out of 100 bundles. It appears they unwrapped all the bills then shuffled and mixed all of them as much as they could, then put rubberbands on them. It would be just as likely, however, that the numbers on the list were sorted later by one of those FBI secretaries that now wishes he/she'd never bitched about having to redact all day.

Re: Email stating "Hal Mount, the agent who checked him in" I might be mistaken but I believe the following to be accurate based on historical and recent accounts... Hal "Williams", was the gate agent, not the ticket agent. The ticket agent was Dennis Lysne. Not calling anyone out - I realize that it's been a long time and names can be forgotten ....and lots of people think Hal Williams was the ticket agent. From everything that I've read, he was not. According to this article, Hall Williams was the Ticket Agent. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=128759; It says he was the "ticket agent at the gate". I think that's the person that checks/takes the boarding passes or tickets at the gate. But my understanding is the one that sold the ticket (and probably wrote the name) was Dennis Lysne. I will post a source if I get a chance tonight. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Re: Email stating "Hal Mount, the agent who checked him in" I might be mistaken but I believe the following to be accurate based on historical and recent accounts... Hal "Williams", was the gate agent, not the ticket agent. The ticket agent was Dennis Lysne. Not calling anyone out - I realize that it's been a long time and names can be forgotten ....and lots of people think Hal Williams was the ticket agent. From everything that I've read, he was not. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Gray never mentions the FBI or Bank people binding the bundles with rubberbands. McCoy loot appears to not have rubberbands on them.... Picture Attached.... I still say McCoy looks a lot older than his actual age. At least in newspapers. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

So his daughter's name was "May". That clears that up. Actually, her given name was Maybelle but she was called May in some document. Frances was his wife, and she was called Frankie. The other daughter was Yvonne. But that was from the 1930 census. He could have had more later. In 1930, he was only around 33 and his wife was 25. But I quit looking - though I did notice a female with initial "E" Tena on another document - city directory I think - but I didn't pursue it since I had already found what I was looking for. I'm very interested in history and genealogy and I would bet that his is an interesting one. Just skimming over dates and such, he arrived in America at the age of 18 in 1915. In 1918, he is in the Army in WWI. 5 years later in the 1920 census he was living with two gentleman in Colorado as their hired hand. In 1928 he is buying a large property in WA, and in 1930 census he has a wife, two daughters, one "helper" (hard to read), and one "servant" that lives with him. On the surface, he appears to be the "storybook" immigrant makes good success story. Of course that's just a surface skim, and nothing to do with Cooper really, just interesting.

Smokin said.. ***The article also mentions that membership only access started about 1980 - so maybe that is when the "Members only - Tina Bar" sign went up??" Think the Fazio's change the spelling to capitalize on the Tina Mucklow connection? A little over 2 months before Ingram found Cooper's money, the show "In Search Of" with Leonard Nimoy featuring the DB Cooper case was shown on December 6th, 1979. The show was very popular back then (six seasons run) and cable was not everywhere like it is now. Many places only had three network channels. I wonder how much of an effect did the "In Search Of" show have on people in the Northwest as far as reinvigorating their memories of the Cooper case that was then 8 years old. The Ingrams? Fazio's? Speaking of Tena/Tina Bar... It's interesting that Cooper offered the stewardesses his 19 dollar change from buying the Bourbon and Whiskey. The only Cooper money is found at a bar. Tina's Bar. Excerpt from Grays book... "He fishes around in his pants for $19 he received from Flo nearly fours ago, on the tarmac in Portland, for the bourbon and Seven he ordered and spilled. He offers the change. Flo and Alice shake their heads. "Sorry" "No Tips" The stews scurry off the plane. Tina does not leave. She stands with him at the back of the plane." Honestly, to me it just seems like someone heard Tena and spelled Tina and the Fazios probably just didn't give it a second's thought. But that's just my opinion. Seems like if they wanted to capitalize on it they could have sold tickets to treasure hunters. As it it, seems like they enjoyed their 15 mins and then it they got tired of the bother. As for Gray's book - once again I would like to know how much is straight from the FBI files and how much is artistic license. One would think that quotation marks mean straight from the files and exact -- but it could just be a way to indicate that someone is speaking and not that this is exactly what they said. And once again - not begrudging Gray his access - I wish he could have copied it all for us! - but I still wonder how and why some commercial enterprises get the access to government files and the rest of us, even other authors, don't. Just one of those things that make you go hmmmm. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

They are talking about Fazio's here... http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=458673 but not about Cooper - they are lamenting the lack of access. Check out the fish picture. lol...no wonder folks are pissed they can't fish there anymore. There is also a picture of a partial survey of the land and the poster is offering the full pdf to other members of that forum. If anyone here is interested - you could register and ask for it - .. though actually - it seems like I've seen if before -- so it's probably already been posted on here or Sluggo's site or I've looked it up from Clark County property files before. In other words, it's readily accessble, if I'm remembering correctly. Or maybe not.....I've looked at so much it starts running together after awhile.

Here's an interesting recent article about access to the beach at Tena in case it hasn't been posted yet - mentions water levels briefly. http://www.columbian.com/news/2013/jun/20/access-dwindles-for-anglers/ The article also mentions that membership only access started about 1980 - so maybe that is when the "Members only - Tina Bar" sign went up?? but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

It prpbably got Amercanized, but does not appear that "he" Americanized it since his death records from 1983 also use "TENA" as does the death records of his wife, daughter May. You are correct about Swiss - the census and immigration records list that he immigrated from Switzerland in 1915 - to Golden, Jefferson Co, Colorado. Ironically, he was drafted in 1918 and served in World War I.

Also finding some Tenas on 1930 census in Vancouver, Clark County, WA. One with given name of head of household that looks like "Tell". 33 yo - birthplace Switzerland, wife, 25 named Frances, 2 daughters, 7 and 8: Maybelle, and Yvonne. Still looking, but "Tena" is looking like the correct spelling and origin. And from here...http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/22663007/ It's 1928, the Chehalis Bee-Nuggett reports this.... It's OCR text, so not sure about the numbers involved.... "Buys 580 Acre Dairy Ranch. Sale of a 58O-acre dairy ranch on the Columbia near Vancouver is reported at a price of ?50,000. The purchaser is a man named Tell Tena and he has placed his herd of 85 dairy cattle on the place and will probably add others." Maybe a drug company will name it CooperMax ? You may be correct Georger. If they buy the land, I'm sure they can name it whatever they please.

Also finding some Tenas on 1930 census in Vancouver, Clark County, WA. One with given name of head of household that looks like "Tell". 33 yo - birthplace Switzerland, wife, 25 named Frances, 2 daughters, 7 and 8: Maybelle, and Yvonne. Still looking, but "Tena" is looking like the correct spelling and origin. And from here...http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/22663007/ It's 1928, the Chehalis Bee-Nuggett reports this.... It's OCR text, so not sure about the numbers involved.... "Buys 580 Acre Dairy Ranch. Sale of a 58O-acre dairy ranch on the Columbia near Vancouver is reported at a price of ?50,000. The purchaser is a man named Tell Tena and he has placed his herd of 85 dairy cattle on the place and will probably add others." but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Also finding some Tenas on 1930 census in Vancouver, Clark County, WA. One with given name of head of household that looks like "Tell". 33 yo - birthplace Switzerland, wife, 25 named Frances, 2 daughters, 7 and 8: Maybelle, and Yvonne. Still looking, but "Tena" is looking like the correct spelling and origin. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill