smokin99

if you say the FBI agrees. that should be all you need. the news reporters would swarm you..... LOL...that's what SHE said..

I don't know - I was kind of enjoying the absence of bickering. It was nice while it lasted. I don't think we are going to get an answer to your questions to Paul. or should I say it's 'safe" to say that lol but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

I don't know - I was kind of enjoying the absence of bickering. It was nice while it lasted. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

I just PM'd him last nite. he is fine. been busy with real life things. was out of town a while I believe. here is a little Cooper comedy that was sent to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEe7VmIhPPM but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Hope everything is okay with Robert99. I notice that he hasn't posted in a couple of weeks. Is he on another Tena Bar expedition? but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

There's been a lot of opinions on the dredging, but I don't know that anyone has ever said with certainty what type of dredging was done at this particular place in the 70s. I also don't know what is at the other end of that pipe that you show - are there cutters/grinders at the intake end? But I agree with you - I have seen this type of dredge pipe, I've seen images of the ones with the blades, I've seen the claw and dump ones. I've also seen pictures of large, intact objects that have come out of dredging pipes. Another point of contention has been the Palmer report. Lots of disagreement and, as with many things cooper, yesterday's expert is today's idiot --so who knows what to believe.

Pot meet kettle. I'm afraid the problem is that you have also presented a lot of yada yada without any bing. There has been zip to back up your statements. I've got another sample of another "suspect's" handwriting that is a much better match - to my admittedly non-expert eye - than KC's are. As a matter of fact, two of KC's samples don't even look like they match each other. So the handwriting stuff is way iffy and we've seen no evidence regarding DNA - plus - you still haven't answered these http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4529348#4529348 very simple questions that I've asked twice. So what I'm saying is... until the CNN truck pulls up to your door, and Curtis Eng comes out of the Cooper closet and shares the proof that you've solved the case 6/13, you don't have anything other than what everyone else that says they've solved it has.......nada.

I mentioned erosion - I'm just not convinced the end product would be so uniform - but I guess it's possible. Also wouldn't this process assume an external moving force (water) over a stationary object (rock)? Would the same uniform process be likely on a stationary object in sand? Or if you hold with the washdown theory would the same uniform erosion be likely if the object is being propelled through the water? but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

That's a great question. One of the articles said that using it to start the fire was suggested by the bro / bro-in-law, but Daddy Ingram saved the day. Who knows if the story is legit? Everything has been guessed at for the holes and the edges. Bugs, diatoms, flare burn, dredge markings, friction, cleaning agents, I could go on and on. I've always favored the insects, rodents, and birds, myself. the holes I can understand, but, it looks like surgical munching lol. most of the bills are equal all the way down around the edges? just another crazy thought I guess. I say we pitch in a couple bucks and plant it on the beach and check on it every 1/4 out of a year? 30 or 40 one dollar bills should be enough.... Hey - I've often thought that if someone had started several experiments when this thread first started we'd have quite a few years of data now.

That's a great question. One of the articles said that using it to start the fire was suggested by the bro / bro-in-law, but Daddy Ingram saved the day. Who knows if the story is legit? Everything has been guessed at for the holes and the edges. Bugs, diatoms, flare burn, dredge markings, friction, cleaning agents, I could go on and on. I've always favored the insects, rodents, and birds, myself. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Shame you didn't make it back.

Forget what was found at Tena Bar and think about $200,000.000. All the money. I envisioned the entire batch of 10,000 (20 dollar) bills randomly mixed and dumped into a kids plastic swimming pool. A blind folded person is asked to pull out 12 twenty dollar bills one at a time. The chance of two twenties being pulled within a 14 serial number spread no matter if your master list is alpha-numeric or random is 1 in 119. The eventual end run would be to understand how this odd (1 in 119) might change by including the money found at Tena's bar. To more specific, how many bills were identified at the time of the Feb 13, 1980 Oregonian article. There is some visual documentation via pictures to guesstimate. My working number is 12. (more or less) With the primary interest in the two L55 bills. Close up of 12 packets....Feb. 13, 1980 I'm still not sure that your numbers are statistically valid, but lets just say that we don't worry about the fact that the bills could have come from the same stack to begin with since they were both L's, and that the overwhelming majority of the bills were Ls - - where do you get the 12 from? The 12 packets were from the bundles after they were separated. Is 12 like a magic number? What if the FBI guy had laid them out in 24 stacks? What if they were able to peel each apart individually? 10,000 bills might be in the swimming pool, but you can't just pull the number 12 out of the hat. To mean anything at all this has to relate to the actual amount of money - and if you are talking about the money then wouldn't the blind guy have to pull out 290 bills, not 12? So wouldn't that be like 1 in 5, following your steps? But hey - even saying you got the math right and I forgot everything I learned (which is quite possible - my eyes really do glaze over beyond the basics ... I still don't understand what this would mean in the scheme of things. But that's okay, don't let me ruin your fun. Maybe you're on to something and I'm like the guy at the swimming pool.

1st - I hate math. And I especially hated statistics in college even though I pulled off an A in it. And I've probably forgotten 85% of what I temporarily learned. Damned statistics.

Not too long ago Jo brought up the numbers on the hijack letter (the one that Jo thinks is code using Duane's service numbers). Anyway, at the time I could not locate the article that had one set of code numbers but ran across it again .....From the Oregonian.....Dec 14 1971... [inline letter_code.JPG] but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

I don't doubt it was microfilm - just saying there is one more discrepancy to add to the other million. And if you're looking for one format - you might overlook the other. But it really shouldn't matter if there are other copies of the "original" list out there. We're just wanting the pizza, not the box it came in.

I don't doubt it was microfilm - just saying there is one more discrepancy to add to the other million. And if you're looking for one format - you might overlook the other. But it really shouldn't matter if there are other copies of the "original" list out there. We're just wanting the pizza, not the box it came in.

as Georger said, perhaps there are multiple copies. the insurance company would have one. the bank would have one, and the FBI and NWO would also have one. minimum of 4 copies some where in this mess. perhaps there is a backdoor other than the FBI in finding the film. Yep, there's that. He also mentioned the court system which - might be the best place to start since case files can be public record. I did a very quick look in Minnesota database and didn't find anything online before 1980s - I think the case was brought in mid 70s. 1975 is when it went to MN Supreme Court as in here....http://www.leagle.com/decision/19751056225NW2d831_11023 - but I would check the lower court files for documents. Course "usually" the online documents are case filings such as subpoenas and depositions - not sure if I've ever seen evidentiary files - but I guess it's possible. Still if someone lives in that area and wanted to go to the courthouse in their spare time

While I was looking for something else, I found this again - and I really did laugh out loud. I miss Farflung. He was so funny - and generally spot-on with his observations. I know he could get caustic at times - did he get a snowjob? Meaning was he perma-banned? There was one post way back that one wrote where I actually wondered if he and snow weren't one and the same. But I think somehow I determined probably not - different style, they both posted during the same time frame, and maybe someone told me they weren't. Anyway - hope he's doing good. Farf - if you still read the thread - let someone know you're okay!!

Exactly. And card = flat "page format" So, my point, if I'm looking for a round film canister or even a box of film on a reel, I might miss a flat card.

Or an unaccounted for $20 slipped through the cracks of the various accountings? Here is Tom's version "directly from 'the' FBI documents" he says: So you don't waste any more time on this. Directly from the FBI documents: "Ransom money in the amount $200,000 was made up entirely of used, random 20 dollar bills. It was obtained from the Seattle-First National Bank, Main Office, and was part of a ransom package of 250,000, which had been maintained by the bank for such emergencies." "The entire list of the ransom bills had previously been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank, and has now been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills." Here is Larry's more detailed version: "This is a big misunderstanding about the money, it all had to be manually scanned. Tellers had a bill list of all 10,000 20's and if someone came in with a boat load they would do a spot check to see if any of the serials poped up." ... and ... "The money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of America. The money had been earmarked for situations such as these and was always on hand. It had been photographed and serial numbers recorded by their security so the FBI did none of this. The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and handed it over to NWA. The money was bundled in various counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was secured by rubber band and different counts so that it appeared the money was hastily gathered." ... and "I then went back and re-interviewed the bank security manager and found out that he wasn't directly involved in packaging the money, only carrying it to the airport. He was relaying what their normal procedure was for processing and packaging money for shipment. But the bank switched its procedure in this case. The funds that were given to Cooper were not pulled from their circulating cash but from a security fund that was prepackaged for these types of incidents. This money was not strapped because the bank did not want any subjects to know where it came from so it was packaged with rubber bands. " ... and "Everything was scanned into a microfiche as they assembled the bundles ..." .... and ... "The money: The FBI does not provide funds for situations like these. In this case SeaFirst Bank loaned the money to NWA, who then repaid SeaFirst in the following days. NWA then submitted a claim to their insurance company, who fought it, but ended up paying the claim after a court battle. " $$$,$$$.$$ The FBI was passive in this whole transaction. It was NWA who received a "loan" and had to account for it. Apparently, from what Tom says, the loan was for $250,000 and it was NWA on the hook who then had to account for which bills were used and which were not used and were being returned to Sea-First ... with the FBI assisting in the accounting and verification? This accounting had to agree with the claim NWA gave to its insurance agent. The entire list of the ransom bills given to NWA had previously been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank. As the money was placed into bundles at the bank a new microfiche was made of that list of bundles. The FBI was given a copy of the bank 'bundles' microfiche in a canister. (Was $250k put into bundles or just $200K? ) Eventually the FBI compiled a SERIAL list of the bills it said had been part of the Cooper $200,000, probably using the bank microfiche of the new Cooper bundles. (Tom says: "has now been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills.") The FBI and at least two other entities would have had to have had copies of the Sea First 'bundles' microfiche. NWA, and the bank itself, and later NWA's insurance company and the Court! That microfiche is evidence not just for the FBI and law enforcement but for NWA and the bank, and then the insurance company, and the Court - because this transaction went to trial when the insurance company at first refused to pay! So when Tom says the canister is lost ... what about the other copies and canisters or duplicate paper printouts et cetera? ! Tom few lines of "Directly from the FBI documents" merely scrapes the surface of this affair. Larry previously described it as "making my head spin". This is not to be critical of Tom. I am just saying there is more to this than a few lines conveys. More than one player had copies of the bank's 'bundles microfiche' - in one form or another. That was mandatory for a host of reasons. Once the matter went to Court, now more copies are required. So, the loss of one copy/canister cannot be all that crucial or if it is .... then we have a different kind of problem! All Tom encountered was a loss of the microfiche at one source only. The picture I have is the FBI was passive in this whole matter. They helped facilitate. The transaction was between Sea-First and NWA. Then handed off to the FBI to give to Cooper. Had the FBI captured Cooper at length and then found its damned canister was missing, does anyone seriously think a duplicate copy of the microfiche could not have been produced quickly? Guess again! Everything is done in triplicate! This isn't the corner grocery store losing it's broom. Lastly, what does RANDOM mean in this matter? Used $20s stockpiled from countless sources ... did the bank actually use a 'Linquist sorter' to sort the bills by serial number into a trully random distribution. I doubt that. I think the word random is relative in this case and the totality of socalled 'random' serial numbers comprising bundles, would not be quite as random as one thinks, especially if no real effort was made to randomise; like using Linguist's random sorting machine. . . which incidently casinos in LasVegas refused to use, because a casino depends on a non-random predictable distribution of cards etc... a distribution skewed in favor of, the house. Good information, Georger, thanks. Who knows - with multiple copies out there, it might still turn up.

Yes, probably a typo on the computer generated bill. Possibly three SN's in a row? Does not match well with the other SN's i found So....I guess these Cooper bills only exist in the cyber world. The picture you show also has a B on it it and the serial number has a L on it. I thought those two numbers had to match. From here: http://www.onedollarbill.org/decoding.html The Federal Reserve Seal and the Federal Reserve District Number. There are twelve different Federal Reserve Banks responsible for printing paper money in the United States. On the one dollar bill, the bank can be quickly identified by a letter code in the Federal Reserve Seal to the left of the portrait of George Washington. The letter code is also found in the prefix of the serial number. A corresponding Federal Reserve District Number code is found in four locations. The following table is a handy reference for the bank codes: Reserve Bank Letter Designation Boston A 1 New York B 2 Philadelphia C 3 Cleveland D 4 Richmond E 5 Atlanta F 6 Chicago G 7 St. Louis H 8 Minneapolis I 9 Kansas City J 10 Dallas K 11 San Francisco L 12 Serial Numbers The serial number of a bill appears twice, once in the lower left hand quadrant and again in the upper right hand quadrant on the front of the bill. The letter which precedes the numbers must be the same number that you saw identifying the Federal Reserve Bank. The last letter of the serial number or suffix letter identifies the number of times that the Bureau of Engraving and Printing used the sequence of serial numbers. A is the first time, B is the second time, C is the third time and so on. With one run for each letter of the alphabet (26) and 32 bill per run, there are a total of 832 bills per serial number. looks like someone was taking artistic license, maybe? Maybe they were not allowed, at that time, to show an accurate representation of the money. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

From several accounts, the adult Ingrams tried to clean the money and separate it before taking it to the FBI, so you have to allow for handling by them post find. Additionally, we don't know how much handling was done by the FBI in their investigation of the money. There has been a lot of discussion on the thread about the money over the years - a search on the thread might yield additional pictures and information if you are interested. I think some good high resolution images at one time. I'm always impressed by this forum's search function as far as returning results on your search string - only drawback is you have to go into each result to see what it is and no way to know which ones have attachments. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Gray claims the bills were marked....there are several ways of doing that, I wonder if they were marked in a couple of ways. Wiki defintion below... ***Marking bills is a technique used by police to trace and identify money used in illegal activities.[1][2] The serial numbers of the bills are recorded, and sometimes markings are made on the bank notes themselves (such as with a highlighter[3] or other writing[4]). Non-law enforcement uses of marking bills may be as simple as distinctive text[5] on the bank notes, or recording serial numbers in the event of a robbery.[6] My last two sentences were mostly tongue-in-cheek. One would think that the FBI and/or other governmental agency would have had adequate resources to verify that the money was genuine. And would have taken advantage of those resources before jumping to conclusions. If they didn't, it would be more of a travesty than a hoot. here's an interesting little clip about what happens when people send in damaged or mutilated money..... http://moneyfactory.gov/uscurrency/damagedcurrency.html but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Evidently, within 2 weeks after the hijacking, some poor soul or souls developed an in-order Alpha-Numerical sequece Booklet list for distribution by Dec. 8 1971. IF the list was ever random to start. Evidently, per Gray's book "Skyjack", R.H. used the same alpha-numeric book in 1980 (as seen in Newspaper in 1976) to verify that one of the Tena bar bills was on the list. I have no idea how R.H. verified the sequence in the Tena Bar bundles. If anyone had the correct sequence list, he would, he was on the case since day 1. Reference Documents Attached... I don't doubt that some poor soul did just that. That was my point - It would be a lot easier to sort the numbers on paper after the fact then it would be to sort the bills themselves into order. And if you have a stop/start index for each of the bundles, they don't have to be in alpha-numeric order. On the other hand, if you are a store clerk looking through a booklet, it would HAVE to be in alpha-numeric order or you're going to have minimal compliance. Tom Kaye posts above that the text in the archives notes that the bills were in random order, and they were recorded that way, with start and stop bills noted for each bundle. I say, obviously, someone later re-ordered the numbers so that they would be easier to check against. All RH did was look at the list that had been developed and found the serial numbers - just like you did. Not to say that he didn't have the original at that point - but he wouldn't have needed it as long as he trusted his ordered copy. And his trust level was probably dictated by the number of bills that matched. If it had been only one bill, then maybe you'd verify a little more. But by the 20th bill, I imagine his confidence level was pretty high and verification accomplished.

Very sad..... I am just the messenger here. Everything I am telling you about this subject comes from text in the archive. To clarify, when I said "in order" that means the bills were in random order stacks, the microfilm list showed those random serial numbers in-the-order they were stacked in the bundles. The random serial numbers on the top and bottom bills was recorded so it could be determined where in the list each individual stack started and stopped. And it was described in detail that the FBI had to sort through the numbers to figure out the true list. Tom Thanks for the clarification, Tom. Aside from it being in the archives, it just makes sense that this would be the way the money was recorded. As it also makes sense that the list we now have is after the numbers were sorted alpha-numerically so that people would have an easier way to look up the bills. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill