smokin99

Article from 1980 calling it TENA...If the Telegraph article is correct, maybe the guys name was Del Tena?? http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0_tLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Oe4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6856,3095682&dq=where+is+fazio+bros+washington&hl=en but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Right - just like no one bit when I posted it except Jo and I don't think I ever did get that pm. . What's up with that, Jo? You're right - it is no biggie... I was just trying to point out that, although it has been discussed in the past, sometimes it seems folks think that some topics are disrespectful or untouchable. Like Tina's behavior or NWA / Donald Nyrop's (it seems) complete lack of curiosity about finding out whodunit. I guess because it is so speculative and touches on that other bad C word (conspiracy). To Mr test.....According to a telegraph article...here....http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/8667855/The-40-year-mystery-of-Americas-greatest-skyjacking.html........"Tina Bar is named after Del Tina, the man Richard’s father bought the property from 60 years ago. Richard says he and his brother knew nothing about the money until the FBI showed up on their doorstep: Ingram’s parents had contacted local police themselves. Albert was in town the morning the FBI came; Richard was eating lunch with some colleagues. “There was a knock at the door and these two guys were dressed just like you’d imagine FBI agents back then,” he says. “In trench coats.” The next day a van full of agents showed up, set up an investigation site, posted guards at the entrance and spent a week digging up the Fazios’ river front. Richard says it was a media circus. “We helped the FBI, using our backhoe to dig in the sand, but we found nothing.” Richard and Albert say the money was discovered on top of the sand and must, therefore, have floated down river rather than been deliberately buried....." but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

The money was not planted. Robert99 So Mr GC, same ground rules. Yes or no. No attacking.

I mentioned this a while back, but nobody took a bite. I was also wondering if she was showing guilt when she got off the plane instead of being scared from the ordeal. where was Tina living from 71-1980? Begging to differ Mr. S......

I read an interesting article the other day - editorial about Karl Fleming and Donald Murphy. The end of the column basically presents....what-if Murphy was actually the hijacker and answered Fleming's ad intending to get a fraud conviction. Once convicted of a lesser crime like fraud he serves probation or a little time. It would be hard to come back later and convict him of the crime that he was convicted of fraud for confessing to. Lol....have to say that would be classic. Telegraph-Herald Nov 26, 1972 http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SnVFAAAAIBAJ&sjid=p7wMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2139,4695472&dq=karl+fleming+db+cooper&hl=en but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

I hope this post doesn't violate any rules. If it does, let me know and I'll delete it. Here's the deal as I see it and without bringing personalities into it. KC is a public figure now - accused of threatening to blow up a plane with innocent people on it in the act of hijacking a plane in order to take money that did not belong to him, i.e., steal. What a recent author wrote about this public figure is, I believe, an accurate representation of what the author that he cites wrote in an article from here http://nymag.com/news/features/39593/index4.html. Specifically paragraphs 2 and 3. Excerpts follow..... .....The rumors she heard about him were true: He was taking in troubled kids and runaways. ....... ....“He was an amusing character,” McWilliams says now of Kenny. He describes life in the house as “odd.” There were always other men around, men from the Army whom Kenny knew and had relationships with. “It was uncomfortable to me, because I’m not like that, but not everybody lived in that house at night,” McWilliams says.......When Kenny came back from Japan or Germany, there were always gifts: expensive food, big bottles of aged sake, ceramic dolls. Kenny never held back financially. They always ate out. “Any restaurant, really,” McWilliams says. “He’d always call it ‘my turn.’ He’d never accept that I pay for some of the things that he ate.” Kenny also helped Mac and other young men who lived with them learn how to save. Once, as a teenager, McWilliams says, he wanted to buy a car. Kenny opened up a bank account for him and matched every dollar he earned. ...... I did not equate what the current author wrote with molestation or pedophilia. I think for anyone to put those words in the current author's mouth is stretching; however, I would say that, perhaps, if I was the mother of one of these teenage runaways I might find Kenny's largess somewhat "troubling" and worth looking into. .....On the other hand.....Like Sluggo has said in the past about cultural goggles - What happened in rural America 1970s might not have any bearing on what we would automatically think today. As that mother I might find that he was just a nice guy who envisioned himself as Old McDonald's YMCA and like to help troubled teenagers........Or not. Whatever the case - proving and winning a lawsuit claiming defamation against a dead person with whom one has no familial relationship, who has been made into a public figure, and who the plaintiff himself claims is likely a criminal that pulled off a terrorist act involving hijacking, bomb threat, and theft seems highly unlikely. What's the quote - the only people who win are the lawyers

That's fair enough. Thanks for your response. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

There was a letter with some random? alphanumeric characters at the bottom. I think it might have been the Robinhood letter but I'm not sure right now. I've got a copy of a news article with the "code" listed somewhere but having trouble finding it at the moment. You can probably find it with a search of the forum - maybe Duane and code. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

In the tone of most of your posts you seem to hold a bit of animosity towards Sheridan. Though I personally think no one alive will ever be actually convicted of this crime because it would be too easy to defend, I get the feeling that you really want Sheridan to spend the rest of his life in jail. In fact, I think you've posted this before. With a couple of exceptions for reasons not related to the hijacking, many folks I've talked to or on this thread are ambivalent about punishing Cooper at this stage of the game - they just want the caper solved for posterity. Not that he's a folk hero - mainly because of his age, the nature of the crime, the relatively benign outcome (I know that's debatable), and the fact that he was able to stump folks for so long. I mean realistically, in this crime at least, he was no Whitey Bulger. So I'm just curious - why are you so strong on Sheridan getting his? If you have personal reasons, no big deal and none of our business - I've just often wondered where the intensity of dislike comes from. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

He's touching on doing something though that I wish someone in the pro documentary business would do - it is interesting to see the Washougal after hearing about it for so long. Or seeing what the projected dropzone (wherever that is) looked like on the ground and from the air in the daytime. Or interview some of the NWA and FAA and FBI people who were actually there. maybe snag an interview with a flight attendant

Just clickifying the link. I thought I had read a previous posting from GreyCop that the money was planted for the Ingram family to find on Tina bar. Now he is stating it came from the Washougal??? I think he is attempting to show that it did not come from the Washougal. I forget his exact words but something akin to "exteme foolishness" of those who think it did. Though I think there are probably less people that subscribe to that theory than do subscribe to it, so I'm not sure what the point is. Though it looks like he had a nice drive and I enjoyed looking at the area.

Just clickifying the link. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

My opinion only, but I see several problems with the handwriting comparisons - First, there is no way to know that you are comparing apples to apples. The handwriting that you say is a mirror image comparison is from one of the letters as compared to the ticket. Problem - There is no certain evidence that Dan Cooper wrote his own name on the ticket, and quite a bit of anecdotal reasoning that he did not. Now maybe you were able to compare writing on the ticket to known writings of the ticket agent -- when I asked whether you had samples of the ticket agent's handwriting for comparison (alluding to a question that you asked that made it sound as if you had), I might have missed it, but I didn't see the answer. If we make the leap that the letters were written by Cooper, but it is still unknown, perhaps doubtful, whether the handwriting on the ticket belonged to Cooper, then that comparison is questionable at best. You are basically seeing a couple of points of comparison between two printed unknown samples. I'm just not seeing where that gets you - especially since the consistencies that you noted seem to be subjective. So what's left is comparing candidate handwriting to the letters. There again - we have no way of knowing whether Cooper wrote the letter(s) or whether it was some random guy living in his mom's basement - or even one of the Cooper candidates who wrote the letters but had nothing to do with the hijacking. (Admittedly that would be out there - just making a point) So there's that... Then there's the issue with whether the almost block printing on the letters would even yield a decent comparison - especially if someone was trying to cover up their natural handwriting. That said - I do think there is some validity in handwriting / document forensics - though still seems to be a very subjective social science. This from the FBI website.....As a discipline routinely accepted under Frye (Frye v. United States, 54 App. D.C. 46, 293 F. 1013, 1014 [1923]), forensic document examination has been consistently accepted in the courts in spite of the challenges generated by the Daubert decision in 1993 (Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, 509 U.S. 579 [1993]). Published research demonstrates the validity of the expertise and supports the principle of handwriting individuality. Published standards ensure consistency in methodology. Document examiners in both public (local, state, federal, and international) and private laboratories use these standards. Ongoing academic research continues to support the forensic document examination community in strengthening the scientific basis for handwriting comparison. But I'm not going there with the validity - I'll leave that to the courts. I'm just questioning your conclusions. If this is all you've got, I'm thinking you might want to hold off on the victory celebration. On the other hand....if you know something about DNA results that we don't......you oughta just spill it. You're among friends and it can't be healthy holding in all those secrets.

The tie may have came in contact with these chemicals from the FBI's own forensic lab. Occam's Razor seems to explain it, being that the simplest explanation is usually the right one. Yes. I noticed that about the fingerprint powder also- does seem pretty likely. I was going to try and confirm that this was the makeup in 70s. Though I guess it could have been contaminated, for want of a better word, after the 70s. Additionally- all the statements about smoking, and what Tina said, the bennies, etc. A lot of "facts" have come out in books and all of the books contradict each other in terms of "facts". This is why I ask- how much poetic license, if any, did Geoff gray take with the facts in order to keep the read interesting? Serious question that I want to know before I start using his stuff as a reference. But that's just me. :) sometimes I get hung up in details. Once I tried to start a spreadsheet listing all of the knowns and all of the contradictions in different books, but I gave up. :) but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Good points. Though I personally think that almost half a pack during a plane flight is getting on up there

I don't doubt that they told you the sample was not contaminated, but I wonder how they would know that? I would really like to know how they can be so confident of this. Does anyone know? Say you've got evidence that has been in a manila folder along with other items. The tie gets touched by the ticket which has been touched by the ticket agent. These items are brought out occasionally for inspection or just to look at. Maybe someone forgets to wear gloves when inspecting the evidence. Who knows, maybe during the occasional retirement party. when things get a little rowdy someone tries on that infamous clip-on. Okay - I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek, but you get the gist. We've seen pictures/video where it "appears" people were handling some of the evidence without gloves and discussed it here. Just saying...if the ties is his - which apparently became a certainty at some point - I've just got my doubts on how they can say that the evidence - at least the tie - has been strictly controlled and therefore contaminate free, but I guess it's possible. It's also possible they have more evidence than they are presenting. LOL...as a matter of fact I would hope this is the case. :) BTW...Speaking of evidence handling, where are those darn cigarette butts? but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

The question asked was: Could Cooper have been a long-term user of benzedrine, and I pointed out certain behaviors or physical effects of that. You quote truck drivers and others you've known. That's fine. I can quote you a half-dozen clinical studies that say amphetamine abuse causes the effects I stated. It's well-known that the long-term use of drugs such as benzedrine DO result in certain effects and behaviors, and if therapy is not sought, oftens end up badly for the abuser. I think it's possible that Cooper had amphetamine for the hijacking, but there's no evidence he was an abuser, which was the question. He just didn't show the usual signs of abuse of benzedrine, which are more obvious than you might think. Actually, if I remember correctly, the question mentioned nothing about abuse. The question was whether he could have been a routine user of Benzedrine. I thought and still think that there is a difference between routine use and chronic (long-term) or acute abuse - which is what I addressed in my post -- and tried to explain that these behaviors might not exhibit themselves with what I define as routine use but they might with "abuse". I know what wikipedia says. I never said "ABUSE", long-term or otherwise, does not cause the behaviors you cited. I'm saying he could have been a routine user and you would never have known it. I'm saying this based on knowing and working with both routne users and acute/chronic abusers within and out of the medical field in the past. My humble, but I will say learned opinion.

lol.... I'm too lazy tonight to look it up - but I'm not sure that combination is only present in pill coatings? Cause I think I have looked this up before when we've discussed this - and other items or places that might have this combination include candy?, white fingerprint powder, paint powders, cosmetics, pharmacy, manufacturers of these types of products? It could be that was after 1971 though - It's late, but I'll be glad to look it up tomorrow evening. Enjoying the discussion. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Unfortunately DNA can contaminate also. Who's to say it's not Larry Carr's skin cells on that tie? Has he been excluded or all of the other who knows how many people who have handled it. What about cross contamination? Even with gloves if you just put all the stuff in a bag who's to say it doesn't capture DNA from another item. Just saying, the only way DNA is a good clue is if someone is matched to it. And the odds of that are???? Especially since we've been told that per the amount/type of DNA they can only exclude? And since they don't really know who they are excluding against? I don't know - I think the DNA is one of those things that we all want to hang our hat on but it's not the Holy Grail. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

My guess is 'maybe not'. Reason being if he was a long-term user of amphetamines his behavior probably would have been more bizarre than it was. 'Speed Freak' was a good descriptive term for those type of folks. Talking a million miles a minute, heavy sweating, paranoia, bizarro behavior, etc. Cooper didn't seem to exhibit those behaviors. Also, body odor was sometimes a problem.

I think, and I could be wrong, that a lot of the military or covert ops type people that have been cited as possible contenders, (folks such as Peterson, Burnworth, Braden) were more your professional military / maybe even soldier of fortune types that were older (on the average) then your Vietnam era paratrooper. But I would have to do some re-digging to verify that statement. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Answering my own question, I believe that the ticket agent is deceased. I realize that daily routines can vary, but it should be a relatively simple matter to find out what the common practice was in the 70s -as a general rule, did the ticket agent fill out the tickets or did the passenger? maybe someone in the NW historical society would know. I agree with you MrShutter - every ticket I've looked at also looks like the same person wrote both the name of the passenger and the flight information. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

lol...there's a lot of stuff that requires prescriptions that you can get without a prescription. I remember black beauties back in the day. Diet pills we called em. Take one and clean the entire house in about an hour, talk a mile a minute, scratch the scalp cause it made it tingle, smoke about a million cigarettes, and wear size 2 jeans.

Welcome aboard, btw. I don't know...I'm no handwriting expert, for sure, but, going with the premise that the hijacker filled out the ticket rather than the ticket agent, I briefly looked at DAN vs VAN without magnification and I'm just not seeing the likeness at first glance. Slants, size, rounding looks different to me. Hopefully you will go into more detail.

And I'm not just coming down on KC's friends or Blevins. Everyone does it - once they think someone might be Cooper, it's Katie bar the door. Think about it - all of a sudden every trivial happening has new significance in the wake of the Cooper phenomenon. I think it's human nature to want to be in on it. I'm sure most of might react the same way. That's why it's so useless to deny it. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill