georger

REPLY: Jo, I agree, this is important. I could write a book about the hours I have spent on this piece of trivia alone. To make a very long story short, visit this link which identifies Tina Bar. http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM34G6 Tina Bar is at: 45*43'2.88N latitude & 122*45'34.55" West longitude. So says the Waymark website on Tina Bar. (Sluggo posts the same information) The Google map from the Waymark wbesite is attached. A Mapquest map called from coordinates is attached. An finally the erroneous Seattle Post "Intelligencer" map showing Tina Bar in a different location is attached - which got all this confusion started in the first place. The Seattle PI would never answer any email on this subject. If it ever turns out the Seattle's PI's map is correct and the Waymark coordinates are wrong, well then we are all in trouble. I agree. The accuracy of the location is importante'. Because its the difference between one set of flow and feed point parameters vs another - I hope this helps - George

I feel there is signfiicant misinformation about Tina's Bar (as the sign on the gate actually reads). To help clear this up Im posting some photos and maps. The maps give context to where T Bar sits and its realtionship to the rest of the (incoming) Columbia. What I am posting is but a section of a much larger hi-res Terrain map I have constructed for the whole area from east beyond Washougal, encompassing Battle Grnd, to south below the Columbia, and east beyond the Columbia NW of Vancouver. Unfortunately my FITS is 546mb large, a bmp 30+ mb, a jpeg 1.2mb, so what Im going to post here are reduced sections from the Terrain map. These provide context for Tina Bar. (anyone wishing the larger files may email me and we will make arrangements). Hopfully I can get these uploaded here - George

What file size and type are we limted to here? 200K ? Thanks, George

A good hi res map of the Columbia from Washougal out beyond Tina Bar with frontage both sides of the river ... would e nice. I will go to your website and see what's there. Thanks.

Tenas Bar was an eddy spot where the river widened a little. It is like most eddy points, whatever is floating by, will pause there. It makes sense. REPLY: Do you know this firsthand? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_River The Columbia is a high volume, high velocity river - the largest river flowing into the Pacific in North American. Its large drop in elevation accounts for its velocity and anything in its path is involved in a very high volume torrent during flood season which sweeps fast currents out of large areas. Look where Tina Bar sits. These are some of the reasons why its a little difficult to grasp that a bag of money would be survive and be found at all at Tena Bar or anywhere else that didnt provide significant shelter. Explaining this is one of the reasons a hydrologist is needed. It may be significant that T Bar sits near the end of a large open expanse involving Vancouver Lake and its associated large bar which stretches clear back around to the east, to the beginning of the river's curve - this whole area is under water during floods so very likely the money was not "put up on Tina Bar", but was left there as water levels dropped in the whole area as a flood subsided. There is no eddy at Tina Bar. It is open river channel right off of Tina Bar ........ map attached -

I don't know much about river hydrology, but I do know that ocean current eddys collect floating trash quite effectively. I fished tuna commercially between Midway Island and Japan. We would occasionally run across vast floating trash dumps formed in current eddys. Sometimes you'd get lucky and find a LOT of Japanese glass net float balls in the midst. You'd also find a zillion pieces of carelessly discarded trash, and sometimes dead birds entangled in it. Never any money though. REPLY: A hydrologist who knows the area of Tina Bar back to Washougal will be able to speak to these issues specifically. I find this very interesting. Once the flow issues are settled then it will become rather obvious how the money got to T Bar and the conditions that had to be satisfied to get it there. This is a very nice problem. I have already talked to several people about this. Couldnt resist. Our problem here is nobody is familair with this area of the Columbia, but general principles do apply. When 'Brian' says the area looked recently wet, you can bet it was "wet". Wet in a big way. If only that money could talk - what a story it would tell!

QuoteHmmm, now that tells me something I didn't know... that these types of river sandbars are natural aggregators for flotsam. So maybe now the odds are one in a million rather than one in a trillion. Still pretty remarkable, but perhaps not as far out as I originally thought. reply: From what Ive seen of Ckret here, I think this is his department - he's pretty good at putting things together based on cause & effect and odds and he has the working file of information. I have an idea, but a hydrologist familiar with this area and its history could reduce this problem very quickly. I would venture it is 1 in several thousand or less, or the money would never have been found at all. Ckret has finally convinced me, from his experience, that simpler is better and seems to work. One of a small number of scenarios got the money to T Bar by one of a few routine flow routes probably involving the whole bag. Keep in mind, none of us knows what this area of the Columbia looked like in 1972-1980. In general probably like it is today. We could all guess what this area looks like in flood with slower water to the right side (Vancouver side) of the main channel, but I would like to find a 70's map of this area of the river and am searching for that. No doubt in the meantime Ckret (and Sluggo) have found the missing link! In the meantime Im working on a larger scale topographic map that might come in handy - will post that asap. Thanks 377.

REPLY: ... very good thought and someone could have been there earlier, first. There is nothing in my area that matches the majesty of the Columbia. This is a very powerful very dynamic river - of note is the Willamette which flows in just south of the Vancouver Island area. I read today that extra fine grain silts from the Willamette are distinctive and make their way across the current of the Columbia into Vancouver Lake, as distinct from the larger grain silts of the Columbia itself. The perimeter of Vancouver Lake was dredged in 82-83 and the silts used to make the island. It is a reacreation area with very strong lobbies watching over it, managing it. Given the strong forces of the Columbia I am amazed the money was found at all. So this area NW of Vancouver Lake must be a huge despository for all kinds of things. Locals must prowl there often and would know the history well. I can see why Ckret wants a hydrologist. I can see why Tosaw was drawn to the area too. Its a natural funnel and deposition area after the sharp bend of the Columbia. Its not too far from this area that record of some of the earliest humans in Noth America was found dating back 9000 years.

QuoteNo soils to my knowledge were saved. As far as a hydrologist goes I still need one, do any of you know one? Orientation of the bundles? If that is your question then the answer to that is they were found together. If the bag broke open prior to its arrival at Tena's Bar there is no way the bundles would have arrived at the same spot, at the same time, resting together until discovery. REPLY II: One more thing: It also strikes me odd the money was found without any sign of the bag or the ropes, which in actual fact are far more resilient to decay than the money. This can only mean the bag moved during its history. The bag and the money were never together at T Bar, just some of the money after the bag and ropes ceased to exist somewhere further upstream or upgrade. In addition, look at the map attached. T Bar sits in a drainage flow basin cut out by successive flooding of the Columbia. This basin is defined by a ridge shown on the map which begins north west of Knapp WA, works its way south east to Felida WA encompassing both Tina Bar and the Vancouver Lake, and merges with the Columbia roughly where I5 crosses the Columbia. (This drainage basin probably has a name on hydrology maps) Vancouver Lake is what is left after this drainage basin drains after flood season. This drainage basin directly connects the Vancouver Lake area with Tina Bar. The whole basin is a deposit zone, very lilkely filled with debris covered over by silt after successive floodings. Note the large bend in the Columbia just before this drainage area begins, backed up by its ridge. The ridge itself was probably created by erosion from swift current over many floodings. Anything caught in this drainage area is not going to escape but either be pushed back up on to the ridge if not swept down stream. Let upload this map...

QuoteNo soils to my knowledge were saved. As far as a hydrologist goes I still need one, do any of you know one? REPLY: You are a phone call away from several at the USGS in your area. You need one familiar with the Columbia and the Washougal. Im astounded nobody kept soil samples. *Maybe somebody did and you dont know it? Maybe the hydrologist who worked the case did and you dont know it. Samples might be sitting somewhere and can still be tested. Call the people who worked on the dig. _________________________________________________ Orientation of the bundles? If that is your question then the answer to that is they were found together. If the bag broke open prior to its arrival at Tena's Bar there is no way the bundles would have arrived at the same spot, at the same time, resting together until discovery. REPLY: The whole bag doesnt have to arrive, just a piece of it with bundles. Wet or dry cemented bundles can travel during high water and a flood to be broken off into smaller bundles, as from Vancouver Lake behind T Bar. You have two main forces at work: water and gravity (downhill). Channel water is the strongest. But water inland flows down with gravity. ________________________________________________ From this we know that if the money arrived there by natural means then it had to all be in the bag. The only other explanation is that someone placed it there and there is nothing to support that theory. The 1974 dredging operation precludes the theory that Cooper landed in the area of Tena's Bar and buried the money. This then precludes any logical argument for it being placed there at the hands of someone. In fact, in order to advance that theory you would have to create or manufacture a piece of the puzzle to make a fit. REPLY: I tend to agree with the above. I disagree the dredging precludes Cooper landing behind Tina Bar. The two have nothing to do with each other. This money was brought down by flood and possibly gravity not from some dredging. I do not think the money arrived at T Bar by the main channel. I think a hydrologist will say that quickly. The main channel is swift current. I think this money worked its way to T Bar from behind or further inland during high water with non destructive current action emptying generally down river direction and downhill. You still have the problem of the money bag being separated from Cooper tied around him as Mucklow said. You now have the added problem of a DZ north of the Columbia on Sluggo's definitive radar based flight path. The interesting thing to me is all you have to do is extend Slug's flight path by several minutes south and now you do have a DZ right in the Columbia basin with an easier flow path to T Bar, and if you also extend the flight path west (by not very much!) now you are just east and north of T Bar which is a direct drainage route to T Bar. That is how I see this from first I looked at this whole situation. As you say, the facts must support the Theory. The money at T Bar is a central fact and a far more certain fact that is this area of the flight path. ______________________________________

QUESTION: You probably cant answer but, did the FBI save the "soil" that was directly underneath and around the money, found at Tena Bar? Here it is: whatever money was at Tena Bar leached into the soil around it. Inks and chemical elements in the bills are to some extent soluable and mobile. Concentrations in the soil should be proportional to the mass of money that was there to leach; $6000, 50,000, 100000, 150000, etc... as well as materials from the bag. Materials from the bag alone would be suggestive. If you found soil concentrations from the money greater than $6000 can produce over time, then obviously more than $6000 was present at Tena Bar once upon a time. Maybe your hydrologist already suggested this. I dont know. This is something a forensic archaeologist usually deals with vs hydrologist. Second: your comment about orientation. What about orientation do you find significant?

Like your nym.

Crket, because roughly 3% of the money was found we know for certain that Cooper lost the other 97%? There are some statisticians who would argue that Ckret is absolutely correct. The same ones who work for plaintiff's attorneys seeking to convince juries that smoke alarms cause cancer, AgHg dental fillings cause Lupus and MS, and that overheated Teflon cookware causes every disease known to man. REGORT: Again I dont think Ckret said that - what ur saying, but I could be wrong. I'm only human.

I understand that. I'm not contradicting her account by saying that the guy probably didn't show a certain amount of joyous emotion upon seeing the money. REPLY: Nope you just contradicted her testimony (again). That isnt what she said. What I'm saying is that I think it's potentially easy and tempting for someone who wasn't there and who is looking for any sign of a possible clue to read too much into her description. REply: or too little. It comes down to balance doesnt it. The commonly understood lexicon. If I tell you to go out and arrest the "giddy" guy in the crowd are you going come back with the 86 year old gent in a wheel chair who can't talk, and say to me, your boss, "I couldnt find any giddy guys on roller skates or horses"? (Giddy abrv giddy-up / gidy=glide) I am also willing to bet that in a crunch you know what "giddy" is as well as the rest of us. As Coach Frye used to say: "This aint debatrical gobblewobble".

I am sure your statement that the Tena bar money find proves Cooper lost all the money in the jump will stir things up. 377 REGORT: I dont think Ckret said that. Maybe he will clarify.

REPLY: GORT. KLATU BARADA NIKTU ?

It brings up one thought. Theory: Cooper didn't own or shoot a gun. If he did, I would think he would have brought it and displayed it on the hijack? Just my bias when thinking of personalities/behaviors. People can chime in with thoughts. More speculation. Has been brought up many times. Cooper never displayed a firearm, unless Ckret knows something not on Suggo's website.

What has any of this to do with DB Cooper?

QuoteIn regard to the various logs that are out there, I think it would be a mistake to take any of them on face value, especially those dealing with Cooper and his demands. All communication came through Mucklow, to the cockpit, to flight ops. No doubt each took their turn to apply their understanding as to what was communicated. When you overlay the interviews with the logs things begin to clear. Cooper did not originally request the airstairs be extended in flight, he requested that after his demand that they be extended at takeoff. REPLY: Before takeoff or during takeoff? (just kidding) Obviously he had never seen a 727 lift off and knew nothing about how far the air stairs extend! His training in 727 flight ops must have stopped at page 3. He got bored and decides on hijacking instead. Wonder what old lady's purse he grabbed on the way in. H said he probably had a criminal background.

"The available evidence suggests that the correlations between physical characteristics and personality traits are nearly always too small to be trusted for the needs of individual prediction." Possibily one could imagine this was key to Cooper's "not getting caught"...i.e. stereotypes. Stick with that thought, but you won't.

I hate to be a killjoy skeptic, but who rounds up the cattle and mends the fences there? 377 Just ignored or bulldozed over for more condos. Nobody wants to "work"any more in America. Everything is free, which means nothing is free! (Not even air) I had a dream one morning that we were looking for Cooper on Easter Island and still couldnt find him. Turned out - - - he had left with Sluggo and Ckret five weeks earlier, on an iceberg, due to secret information about tides from - - - Snowmman.

REPLY: Tina knew "giddy" first hand. She knew what it implied, in the context of the money. I guess it takes life-experience to know. IMO, there's too much second-hand interpretation involved for any real clue to come of that one. I don't think we can even begin to eliminate or incriminate any suspect, regardless of background, because of it. Aside from the natural problems of having to go off of Tina's account (as is the case for so much of this), what's "giddy" or "child-like" to one person - let alone Tina - might be something different to someone else. It could mean smiling, laughing, dancing - lots of different things or combos. In any case, generally being happy at getting the money strikes me as a natural reaction for just about anyone (or any criminal, to be more specific) who's going to such ridiculous lengths to obtain it.

It is what it is. Some things you can take at face value . I know that is impossible to believe much less follow in the current gridlock where everyone and everything has a conpsiracy behind it or private information or an ulterior motive. Giddiness is as giddiness does! Even my grandmother who never graduated gradeschool could figure that one out. She lived at Vancouver on 11-24 and "just knew" this event would never get resolved. She said that was obvious two days after the event. Smart woman.

You have forgotten a cogent line of exploration: Somatotyping. Endomorphic dyslocations in the Ectoplasm. And, "channeling". Hire a medium ?

REPLY: So if I understand this latest transfiguration, DB Cooper bailed in the Orchards-Hockinson area after or during a turn at Battle Ground VOR. Two simple maps attached - (If I am stating this not correctly please somebody correct this) Given this new DZ, how does the money get to Tina's Bar after 1974? Air drift, water route, on foot, grizzly bear, camel traders,? (1) There is no obvious water route. (2) There is no obvious down hill gravity route. (3) There is no obvious air drift or throw path unless 305 was significantly higher than 10000 feet and DBC bailed south of the Sluggo-Carr drop area. (3A) Sluggo map is wrong and 305 was in a different location. (3B) Sluggo map is incomplete and 305 engaged in tactics meant to throw DBC off the ladder and 305 viered off V23 during this tactic. (4) The money was walked or transported to an area near the Columbia where it or some piece of it later is washed to Tina's Bar. It is worth noting, if Im reading the FP correctly, that Toutle where the palcard was found is roughly west of the S-C revised flight path which is consistent with a SE to NW wind drift. The same drift direction applies to Cooper himself, if he got his chute open. But, this still places Cooper in an untennable position so far as money winding up in the Tina's Bar area by direct deposit. And if Cooper died on impact in the Orchards-Hockinsn area how does money get to Tina's Bar? Geoeger