georger

I'm thinking maybe it wasn't a real salute. Maybe a wave, hand up kind of thing. Even though, shows relatively relaxed, confident? well, the description of rig up is even worse for changing a perception of Cooper, I think. I was thinking though that it might be overstated. I think any dummy familar with slider buckles would be able to cinch up the straps. Note I commented on the probable error in "canvas" here. page 32 "Cooper put the military parachute on his back and cinched up the canvas straps to make them fit his chest and thighs. Tina noticed how quickly and easily he completed this complicated operation - just looking as though it were an everyday occurence" There is another description of Cooper inspecting the open stairwell very quickly after takeoff. So I don't know if I agree with Ckret's interpretation of wanting to jump right away. He definitely seems to have started getting things in motion around the stairs right away. REPLY> I think if Tina said it was a salute, that is what it was. Again, its audacious if not stupid, even for a worldclass jumper to do. (In the next fifteen minutes he could be saluting a bear or have a fencepost up his rectum.) He is the only unsolved case of this kind in aviation history. Nothing quantifiable in that! We could speculate forever.

Georger..I went back and looked at Sluggo's leg knots/distance to see what you were talking about. Yes..too much variation. BUT: these tick marks were hand drawn right? I suspect if we allow a little variation on each tick mark (error) that we could get them so the variation in speed distance is not so bad? In fact I can estimate. A fast leg covered 4.1 NM A slow leg nearby: 3.02 NM So a .5 NM error on both of the surround tics would account for that. Isn't our radar only about that accurate? So I think what it says is that if from tic to tic we could see an instaneous 0.5 NM error, or that the hand drawing could introduce that error, then we can't make any flight speed analysis from the tick marks does that make sense? We don't know enough about the instaneous causes of radar error. (attached sluggos thingee again) (edit) It does look like if Cooper jumped at 2015, then maybe they had started changing the flaps back to 15 degrees already? thinking it may have jumped earlier at the oscillations. So I guess we're not sure about Cooper's exit speed. REPLY> Sluggo had an explanation for this - he will chide me for forgoetting, but his answer made sense. The ONLY reason it matters to me is (a) trying to refine a drop point and (b) sure as hell somebody would see this and make a big deal about it - peer review and all that. Personally I can live with it except as it affects zeroing in on a drop point. And yes. The radar had .5+- in it as I recall Sluggo's post.

I'd say from my experience jumping from a jet and in seeing birds flying around boats on marine radar that Cooper had enough separation to be resolved distinctly from the 727 echo within one second. The closer the plane is to the radar the sooner the Cooper and plane echoes would become distinct because a fixed distance between them gives higher angular separation when closer to the radar antenna (polar geometry). At 10 miles it should have been a piece of cake to see the Cooper echo. Certainly ATC raw radar tapes would have been preserved after such an incident. They are when accidents are involved. What happened to them? 377 REPLY> Well, resolution would be a function of distance, beam spread angle, frequency, type of target (reflective vrs amorphous etc), etc etc ... it sufficies to say I think you are very correct. 10 miles and in 1 second a body has fallen far enough from the plane it is detectable. As I recall this (this is crude cuz radar is not my area) these old radar(s) had different beam widths a controler could switch between to change resolution? Like a kind of magnification? In fact I saw a radar panel a control officer was working back in the 60s and the tech had several different plastic reticles he could put over the screen then switch between beam widths to change resolution... But if they werent looking then all of this is irrelevant. Cooper probably had that figured out too!

Thanks Nuke.

REPLY> I should not have read this! Cooper is now coming off as far more in control and competent than I thought he was. Saluting Mucklow? WTF is that!@!!

>>>>>>>>> damn good work Snowmman!

All, Sometimes I get furious angry frustrated irritated with Ckret, especially when he doesn’t reply to my posts, IMs, or e-mails in a timely manner. Today I ran across THIS and it reminded me that our favorite Special Agent has a “real-job” and isn’t setting around the office reading dropzone.com posts and answering e-mails. The guy in the article who rammed the SUV was Ckret. The attached photo shows Ckret in the background (on the cell phone). So, Ckret…. Why does it take you so long to reply to my e-mails and posts? Sluggo_Monster Damn, if I ever turn from highway robbery to bank robbery I am going to carefully avoid Ckret's district. I don't want to run into James Bond while I am trying to get away. I remember a bar in SF that was frequented by Samoans, Tongans and other BIG HUGE guys. An SF cop told me that when they got a call about a fight there, they would wait about ten minutes and then roll. "No need for me to get between two crazed elephants when I am only four years from retirement" is how one cop described it. "We kinda let them work things out on their own before we show up." Different response philosophies. 377 >>>>>>>>>> not trying to be funny but its called self preservation. Now, what was Cooper's slant on this!

Warning: Danger Will Robinson… Danger Danger Do not confuse “winds aloft” with ground level winds. If navigators and pilots did that, they would be in a world of hurt. Want to know what the prevalent winds at ground level are? Find the nearest airport and look at the runway alignment(s). Sluggo_Monster Sorry about the Will Robinson quote, I don’t watch movies like you guys do. What was the “big toe” reference? REPLY> totally aware of the distinction, morever winds aloft can be in a different direction from winds at the ground ....

In this case... it means; "Not yet to Portland, but definitely in the suburbs." REPLY>>> across south of the Columbia? Portland goes right up to the river so any suburbs are basically Portland itself. Is there an automatic proximity to such messages going out ?

Flaps 30 or 40 on most planes requires near landing speeds. In fact, I pulled out my 737 reference charts and for both 30 and 40 instead of giving a specific knot number it simply says Final Approach Speed. There likely would be a slowdown associated with lowering the flaps. Thanks Nuke (I always think of you as The Cooler for some reason :) What flabbergasts me, is that this 30 degree flap/slowdown issue was in the FBI summary report for 37 years. And so it's clear that Cooper jumped at a reasonable exit speed right? And the story's been put in the papers forever that he jumped at some crazy speed. I mean, the more we learn, I'm expecting the jumpers out there to be thinking: easier and easier jump? It depends on what you consider reasonable exit speed and clear. I'm looking at files that accompany accompany a payware 727 plane for a flight simulator. I'm not sure how accurate they are, but they have the maximum extension speed for 30 degrees as 180 knots. Other than Towsaw there is nothing to confirm the drop to 145 knots. REPLY> Sounds stupid but I say a prayer for him every night. Thanks for sharing this Cpt Kirk.

Also remember that 305 was given instructions to squawk a special transponder code when Cooper jumped. This certainly would have received the controller's attention. Of course that code never came, and no one was certain that a jump occurred until the plane landed in Reno minus a passenger. REPLY> we do not know that they didnt communicate to the company through all of the suspected jump period in lieu of squaking the transponder ... they may have been ordered not to by the company? Why the company would give such an order is totally beyond me, if they did. But after the fact they had no problem whatever identifying a bail time period. It has always struck me something is being concealed for some reason ... I mean if they were seriously thinking or on the verge of trying to kill the guy why advertise it with a squak!? The comapny would say: keep this to yourselves.

Flaps 30 or 40 on most planes requires near landing speeds. In fact, I pulled out my 737 reference charts and for both 30 and 40 instead of giving a specific knot number it simply says Final Approach Speed. There likely would be a slowdown associated with lowering the flaps. Thanks Nuke (I always think of you as The Cooler for some reason :) What flabbergasts me, is that this 30 degree flap/slowdown issue was in the FBI summary report for 37 years. And so it's clear that Cooper jumped at a reasonable exit speed right? And the story's been put in the papers forever that he jumped at some crazy speed. I mean, the more we learn, I'm expecting the jumpers out there to be thinking: easier and easier jump? It depends on what you consider reasonable exit speed and clear. I'm looking at files that accompany accompany a payware 727 plane for a flight simulator. I'm not sure how accurate they are, but they have the maximum extension speed for 30 degrees as 180 knots. Other than Towsaw there is nothing to confirm the drop to 145 knots. REPLY> unless time and disatance are accurate - this is why I questioned the large variation in ground speeds between markers on Sluggo's map. I mean its impossible to be doing say 160 kts one minute and 235 the next, then back to say 175 - unless you are a UFO! I mean either the radar data is accurate or it isnt. The overall slope (average) of the data seems within acceptable range but these large variations one minute to the next seem to make anything possible when it wasn't (if physics applies).

In this context Sluggo can use "very near" because if they are giving 305 a PDX altimeter setting it generally means that the plane is very close to the airport. The altimeter settings are derived from the closest weather observation station in the vicinity of the plane's path. And if we take the radar data and assume it is accurate, the plane is very close to PDX at 8:15. Yeah, that's another thing that amazes me. Jumpers here have given examples where ATC folk could count the jumpers exiting a plane with their radar. If the ATC folks had been on the ball or told "look now" they would have been able to see Cooper bail? I mean we were joking about SAGE picking him up. But here he's just 10 miles out from PDX ATC? Should have been easy? (if they were looking) REPLY> unless he is shielded by the plane. Until he separates a sufficient distance from the plane radar can't resolve him as a discrete object .. so would have something to do with Cooper's radar angle vis-a-vis the plane.

I have a request in with the Special Agent who makes nicknames. In this context Sluggo can use "very near" because if they are giving 305 a PDX altimeter setting it generally means that the plane is very close to the airport. The altimeter settings are derived from the closest weather observation station in the vicinity of the plane's path. And if we take the radar data and assume it is accurate, the plane is very close to PDX at 8:15. REPLY> ... and VERY CLOSE is ? 1 mile. 5 miles. Im trying to connect this to Rataczack's statement.

The wind direction was apparently different up by Lake Merwin. We're still not in agreement about winds down by the new LZ. Ckret has posted some stuff about battleground but I'm not sure of it's accuracy? I've posted surface wind stuff at PDX. Sluggo says surface wind doesn't matter. So we need to get in agreement on the winds at the new LZ and where the data came from. We've never agreed. I know I believe in winds from the SE as most probable by the new DZ. I'd like to see the source of other's data. REPLY> Hopfully we can get the winds down - I was also mulling over 20:15.56 (below from Sluggo) with respect to Rataczack. "SEA CNTR advises Portland Altimeter (Corresponding Sea Level Barometric Pressure) is 30.03 inches of Hg. [This is important because it shows that at 20:15:56 they were very near Portland.]" _Sluggo website I wonder what "very near" means.

Ckret, You have the experience and reputation. You must give Sluggo his new acronym. Just pretend he robbed a Seattle bank and you are looking at the video. 377 REPLY> I could suggest one but he probably wouldnt like it: Capt. Kirk (as in Star Trek).

EXACTLY RIGHT!!! The last transcript Sluggo & Ckret posted reveals they discussed getting rid of Cooper or trying to render him ineffective. It has always been on my mind that except for Cooper's bomb they might have done something to screw Cooper over, just as he was bailing.. We went through a discussion once of the single entry "15,000" ... and discussion about oxygen right around the same time in the transcript. Sluggo decided it was a typo ? That entry made me wonder if the crew was up to something...

Can you say body language... ltdiver REPLY> no kidding! looks like they dont want to be there in a big way ... I think they were under orders from NWA through everything. Go back and look at the CBS interview just after they had landed at Reno. (on Youtube) Scott doesnt want to say anything and Tina keeps looking at Scott for clearance to say anything.

QuoteThe new LZ is just 10 miles from PDX. REPLY & QUESTION> See the 72 FBI LZ maps attached. Note the wind vector lines A-B, H-P, O-R which define drift at the various latitudes. Arent they going the wrong direction vs the wind charts you found? It should be SE to NW, not SW - NE as shown on the 72 maps ??? What am I missing!? BTW I did a little gamma adjustment on this map so its a bit easier to read - more B&W contrast. George

I always just put it in a canvas laundry bag and it drew ZERO attention as carry-on luggage. That's what I meant by "bag it". Cooper could have done the same thing IF he managed to obtain a jumpable chute without raising a lot of attention or leaving evidence trails. Also, that canvas laundry bag with a drawstring would have made a decent money bag for the jump. REPLY>> All good points.

I believe it was Anderson who was on the re-enactment flight. If Scott was listened to anymore than the others it was probably to do with seniority more than anything. REPLY** Must be ESP, I was just thinking abt him. Here is Ckret's post about him in #2347 June 10 08. "The BUMP. Second Officer Anderson, who was present for the test and served on the flight crew of 305 the night of the hijacking, stated what was felt during the test was identical to what was experienced the night of the hijacking." Given the above its likely Anderson would confirm Rat's statement about their position and seeing Portland. Now... Scott is a curious person to me. Senior. Very reticent. Aloof but engaged all at the same time. Walzes into H's office years late with new opinions about the flight path? Company man through and through so 'burn the slaves and let me have my retirement in peace' - we have a lot of those kinds around here and they are always wrong (but full of opinions) about everything? So, I have never given Scott much credence, because ... he had little to say! Its a puzzlement to me. Lets keep track thatwe are older guys. These young guys sometimes dont have much tolerance for the older slow silent types. (one of my sons says)

REPLY> ... justwalks on the plane with a parachute and says, "it's for my grandma. She always wanted one", or, "Im entering a parachuting contest in Seattle and the prise is $200000 dollars"! . He could have pretended he was woman and pregannt?

QuoteI'm all for a good splash theory for Cooper. I agree with georger that Rat.'s testimony is the strongest thing here. In terms of probability, the surface area of the river vs land area seems to say splash LZ is "less likely" and the predicted jump time vs radar doesn't seem to have Columbia be a high probability LZ..or as you say Rat.'s testimony...It also requires Cooper to no-pull. I'm not really sure why Cooper would no-pull. We've been thru that, and it seems to me probability favors pull, even with no experience. (or little). But maybe the various facts could be aligned for a splash theory...(or mud theory). What little I've read about the Columbia seems to favor body recovery if Cooper splashed though...so even a splash theory can be iffy. It would help solve the money issue, although I still have a hard time with a 7-1/2 year canvas bag, somehow making it to Tina Bar post '74....although maybe it got covered by something for a while, or was buried in the water? i.e. cold columbia water may have acted like a refrigerator? So I dunno. I guess we've beat that to death already... REPLY> I want to be crystal clear about this. Rataczak's statement is: (1) could see suburbs of Portland and (b) WE HAD NOT CROSSED THE COLUMBIA YET (when they felt the bump). So unless forward throw, drift, and variables in the flight path put Cooper in the Columbia basin, a splash theory is not warranted. What troubles me about this scenario is (1) why wasn't his body or his things found if he bailed in an urban area? (2) what explains the condition of the money and where did the rest of the money go? Are we looking at money that sat on dry land for years or was exposed (emersed) in water. I think it is dry land! These two questions above are central no matter where he bails. Somehow, the answers to those questions are wrapped up in Rataczack's statement. But a splash theory is not warranted yet, as I see this. And Rataczack's statement may even preclude it.

REPLY> and I am reminded that most people get lost and lose their lives 13 miles or less from their homes! Whether it is snowstorms or traffic accidents or ..... hijackings? I think we are very close, within 13 miles, and we should not give up. If that means I am not fit for some panel chosen by Ckret and Sluggo then so be it. This is not my case! Sluggo's case. Snowmman's case, Nuke's case. Jo's case, Safecrack's case, 377's case, Dropzone's case, etc etc etc etc. This is Ckret's case! Ckret will call the shots and Im happy with that. I like and trust energetic young guys.

I think when we creat a new LZ, we probably don't care about the oscillations in the transcript. We're probably mostly going from the "time to bump" from the 2005 comment from Cooper...So we can almost ignore all this transcript delay wishy-washy prediction. (edit) or not? cause the 2005 comment is in the logs? so we do have to account for transcript delay? The jump point seems to be be around 2015, with the visibility of the "portland suburbs" being the stronger identifier, compared to the bump delay after cooper's 2005 communication (transcripts) We do need to factor in radar tolerance of +-.5 miles in the LZ prediction though? (edit) and I guess we're willing to say Cooper didn't cross the Columbia based on other pilot testimony on the bump. So maybe the jump point is between 2013 and 2015 or so. (real time, after the 2004 error is corrected) REPLY> As I see this there are two (maybe three) independent sources for judging the jump. (1) the maps drawn from radar data?, and (2) Rataczak's statement. The maps seem to offer a wider window than Rataczak's statement would allow? I would have thought that maps made from radar data would not only authenticate Rataczak's statement but refine it specifically. There must have been disagreement at the time and Rataczak's statement was given less weight. It may turn out that his statement is the truest account of all because (a) Rataczak's statement is a firsthand account while (b) the maps are the result of a large (beaurocractic) process. I kept silent through most of Sluggo's map work except for ocassionally saying 'I think I know where you're going', because Sluggo's work seemed to me to be closing the gap between the previous maps and Rataczak's statement. I have no idea what's going through Ckret's mind at this point or how he sees this matter, except to note that it is Ckret himself who has brought up Rataczak's account reminding us of it several times, so I have to believe Ckret also gives Rataczak's account credence. If I were Ckret and Rataczak is still alive, I would interview him again asap. My feeling is we need to give Rataczak's account top credence and fit radar data to that! I believe that is essentially what Sluggo's work has done, whether Sluggo had that in mind or not, but I am NOT speaking for Sluggo (obviously). Sluggo may not like what I am saying (suggesting) here, but I can only say what I think. I may be wrong. Because, if Rataczak's statement an be taken at face value then that brings Cooper and his damned money closer to the Columbia for a deposit at Tina Bar in some time frame. It offers an explanation for Cooper never being found - his body taken out by the Columbia. and, 'If a (body) be washed away by the sea Europe is the less, as well as if a mannor of thy friends or of thine own were. Therefore, never ask to know for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee (Cooper)' - paraphrasing Robt Dunne. So think we must keep Rataczak's statement in mind until it and everything around it, are resolved.