georger

REPLY> The basic reason I have aways favoured a later time (8:15 or even later) is because it brings the money (and Cooper) closer to the Columbia and by extension, Tina Bar. I never favoured the Washougal washdown theory because its too complicated and potentially destructive to the money. I remember Safecracking's comments well, when he was trying to reason things out based on a 2 min float time, and I remember Safe's skepticism this would ever work. I was sitting here lurking at the time and I smiled and thought "Safe is on to something important". That was the last time I took the Washougal theory seriously. But it left wide open getting money to Tina Bar. The only real solution was to move the DZ south or provide an alternate money route, as I see this. I take Rataczak's comments VERY seriously. He was young and alert and with very good skills. If he said he was seeing Portland then he was seeing it! (I would set things into motion on that statement alone given who was making the statement.) To me Rataczak's statement solves the latitude question. The only remaining issue is longitude they were on. But, I have wondered many times what is going on in Sluggo's mind. I cannot help but think he is pleased Rataczak said what he did because it basically confirms the work Sluggo did, unless I am missing something? The big question I have is "why no body?" if Cooper died in the Orchards-Scotton.... area. Something is missing. That is how I currently see this -

REPLY> Thanks Snow - I appreciate the comments. He might also avoid a rail line because the police routinely checked rail points for suspects. So many options, so little time.

On the transcripts we have discussed (since February) the Seattle ATC portions are marked with “Reel Numbers” and have a statement to the effect: “… a true copy of the original recording.” I think it is clear that those transcripts were taken from an audio tape. It is page 89 through page 106 that were taken from the TTY output. The Reno and Oakland ATC transcripts were probably from audio tapes as well, but have no statement indicating such. ???????????????? I don't understand this statement. Sluggo_Monster REPLY> So, are you presenting these as historical documents for purely historical interest, or, as new-new material to consider along with your "Revised" maps? Are you now tossing Orchards-Hockinson in favour of these old maps? George

REPLY> Hate to keep repeating but: "The crew had already reported the abnormal fluctuations so they believed this "bump" was just a continuation of what started at 8:11 PM. Because of this they don't report it. They do have conversation, however, Radazcak said he could see the northern suburbs of Portland when this occurred. He also said it occurred 5 to 10 minutes after last contact at 8:05 PM." There is one 8:15. This may be the best you ever get.

Thanks for your remarks. I just made two posts which I think may help. Thank you agn OM. 73

Not necessarily. Your statement seems to imply that Rataczak and Cooper had an equal view which they did not. Rataczak is sitting at the front of the plane with a near 180 degree view in front of him. Cooper is either looking out side windows, which gives you little indication of what is in front of you. Or he is standing at the backstairs giving no indication at all of what is in front of him. But again to know where you are in "general terms" on a plane, if you know the route doesn't require seeing anything. REPLY> I knew some one would say this. All he has to do is look out the windows, the cabin is dark. Or out the back of the aircraft at the direction of skyglow. He knows Vancouver and Portland are coming up. He knows the area. The way you worded your initial statement isn't always true. If you are approaching a city straight on in an airplane the flight crew is going to see the glow and subsequently the lights before a passenger does. Given the likelihood of clouds that night the fact that Cooper likely had his back to the city, and my experiences that flying at night you get less "night glow" than driving when approaching a city, It isn't as certain as you are trying to make it out to be. REPLY> This is worth revisiting. see map attached. Notice angles of approach to Portland with respect to a personsitting in the cabin of the plane. Not to preclude person sitting in plane can move around and look out any window he wants right to behind the cockpit door! Take Rataczak's words at face value. He didnt say he saw the lights over Portland but Portland itself. "The crew had already reported the abnormal fluctuations so they believed this "bump" was just a continuation of what started at 8:11 PM. Because of this they don't report it. They do have conversation, however, Radazcak said he could see the northern suburbs of Portland when this occurred. He also said it occurred 5 to 10 minutes after last contact at 8:05 PM." (Ckret #2357 June 10 08) The curious thing to me is Rataczak did not say "lights of Portland" but "suburbs" of Portland. The city itself? But we are talking not only about Portland but Vancouver and Portland. Two sets of large lights. Much skyglow in specific direction off clouds. (I know they were at 10000 feet. Luminosity diminishes as a square of the distance from the source. Still bright) I believe Cooper saw the lights and knew from these alone, where he was. Nothing more sophisticated is required. Notice the angle of the plane and the turns on the map and the approach angle at Vancouver/Portland. As an absolute fact, Cooper bailed north of Portland as Rataczack says, but also from Sluggo's analysis, the previous FBI map, etc. Thanks, George

I don't think you're thinking clearly. Or you've never walked railroad tracks. Why is the railroad track an escape route. So you get to Tina Bar. You're not done. Where do you go from there...You get off, lose some money then get back on the train? If you got on the train, there's no reason to get off at Tina Bar? The Tina Bar connection is being used to justify the validity of the train path for escape, but the Tina Bar link makes no sense, train-wise? if escape is the goal? (edit) Also you can't get off a train unless it slows to maybe 10-15mph. Faster than that is crazy? I've not heard a sensible train theory. It makes most sense to get back to Portland. You had to get to Portland area somehow to start the trip? Getting to Portland makes sense. A random railroad walk or hop makes no sense. Can you flesh it out? REPLY> Its just a thought, not a necessity. The rail line is the one single direct and unobstructed route between the new DZ and the Tina Bar area - right behind Tina Bar. All other routes are (far) more complicated. But, it does assume he either survived long enough to get to the Columbia or someone with his money did. He had all night long if he survived. A rail line offers some concealment. He already knew where he was in relative terms, as per Rataczak's statement. He would have known the rail line was going toward the Columbia. The problem in all of these matters is we have no evidence to work from. It's a lot like feeling the legs of an elephant and coming up with the atomic theory from that? This case is almost on a par wth the Drake equation, and until something specific surfaces its an enigma wrapped inside a riddle cloaked inside opinion. We cant even get two people to agree on what people saw!

Questions you are asking are personal and not for a forum - so far I have been an open book but this is going too far. I think I have given FAR more DETAILS than necessary. ARE you wanting to know the most intimate details of our marriage? If you were a writer doing a book you might be entitled to answer to the details of our lives, but considering this is a public forum - You have stepped over the line. REPLY> This has turned crazxy again and Im outta here.

Not necessarily. Your statement seems to imply that Rataczak and Cooper had an equal view which they did not. Rataczak is sitting at the front of the plane with a near 180 degree view in front of him. Cooper is either looking out side windows, which gives you little indication of what is in front of you. Or he is standing at the backstairs giving no indication at all of what is in front of him. But again to know where you are in "general terms" on a plane, if you know the route doesn't require seeing anything. REPLY> I knew some one would say this. All he has to do is look out the windows, the cabin is dark. Or out the back of the aircraft at the direction of skyglow. He knows Vancouver and Portland are coming up. He knows the area. The way you worded your initial statement isn't always true. If you are approaching a city straight on in an airplane the flight crew is going to see the glow and subsequently the lights before a passenger does. Given the likelihood of clouds that night the fact that Cooper likely had his back to the city, and my experiences that flying at night you get less "night glow" than driving when approaching a city, It isn't as certain as you are trying to make it out to be. REPLY? it is as certain as i am not an eskimow riding a camel in brazil! But I must be. Im here!

Not necessarily. Your statement seems to imply that Rataczak and Cooper had an equal view which they did not. Rataczak is sitting at the front of the plane with a near 180 degree view in front of him. Cooper is either looking out side windows, which gives you little indication of what is in front of you. Or he is standing at the backstairs giving no indication at all of what is in front of him. But again to know where you are in "general terms" on a plane, if you know the route doesn't require seeing anything. Agreed. If Cooper was standing on the stairs just after it passed Lake Merwin, he'd probably see the lights on the Lake Merwin Dam right? So he'd have a general feel of a couple minutes since then. Sluggo has talked about compasses and the BTG vortac turn. But just waiting a couple minutes since he saw Lake Merwin would be pretty accurate. I think Cooper had a watch since he dictated time boundaries (5:00) and complained about elapsed time (fuel truck) The lights on Merwin Dam have been highlighted by some of the TV shows on youtube. REPLY> Oooooops you are right. Cooper had retinosa pigmentosa. Its in the transcript!

Not necessarily. Your statement seems to imply that Rataczak and Cooper had an equal view which they did not. Rataczak is sitting at the front of the plane with a near 180 degree view in front of him. Cooper is either looking out side windows, which gives you little indication of what is in front of you. Or he is standing at the backstairs giving no indication at all of what is in front of him. But again to know where you are in "general terms" on a plane, if you know the route doesn't require seeing anything. REPLY> OK. Thanks.

REPLY: Sure you can forget about the money and Tina Bar and search for Cooper remains near Scotton Corner etc. But 37 years has already accomplished that. The is barely one stick of ground that hasnt been explored one way or another and nothing ever seen or noticed. I dont know anything about a shoe being found or a boat being stolen. Likewise I dont know anything about a corpse being found in a rail car 300 miles away that was never linked to the hijacking, if that ever occurred. I can also say with absolute certainty that had the original jump point been projected as being Scotton Corner, the rail line at Scott would have come under intense investigtion. It is an obvious escape route - which just happens to lead right behind Tina Bar, where Cooper money just happens to surface 9 years later. That's some "coincidence", in my book. I suppose if he had packed roller skates we would ALL be looking at - - - railroad tracks! The logic in this matter gets a little humorous at times. It's like a board meeting with vested interests at stake and oil going higher every day? I wonder if there is Quicksand at Vancouver Lake? Maybe his bones are there after jumping off a railcar? Maybe there is quicksand at Scotton Corner, but I doubt it. Sluggo etc have moved this whole case from Merwin Lake to the Scotton area which is to move it from wilderness to civilisation, and Cooper still leaves vanishes and leaves no trace. That is no small accomplishment! He must have had a valet waiting.

Not necessarily. Your statement seems to imply that Rataczak and Cooper had an equal view which they did not. Rataczak is sitting at the front of the plane with a near 180 degree view in front of him. Cooper is either looking out side windows, which gives you little indication of what is in front of you. Or he is standing at the backstairs giving no indication at all of what is in front of him. But again to know where you are in "general terms" on a plane, if you know the route doesn't require seeing anything. REPLY> I knew some one would say this. All he has to do is look out the windows, the cabin is dark. Or out the back of the aircraft at the direction of skyglow. He knows Vancouver and Portland are coming up. He knows the area.

I will reply to Mr Nuke to come back to central facts and a synopsis we could make, I feel. Central facts: [Sluggo] “In actuality they were a 50º Left-Turn at Toledo and a 48º Right-Turn at the 20:15 location on the map (which actually occurred at 20:14 because of the lost minute). That means he jumped at 20:14 Right over Scholl Airport (historical) which was an FAA ID’ed DZ. I think the Orchards-Hokinson area would have been a much more productive search area than Merwin Dam (in 1972). “ Ckret then reminded everyone as follows: “Ratazcak said he could see the northern suburbs of Portland when this (the bump) occurred. He also said it occurred 5 to 10 minutes after last contact at 8:05 PM.” Thus: We have two separate events: oscillations and bump. The bump occurs Just AFTER Cooper has bailed, some time between 8:10-8:15 on the flight map. “Rataczak said he could see the northern suburbs of Portland when (the bump) occurred.” But, Ratacazak also said: ‘we had NOT crossed the Columbia River yet’. This places the DZ somewhere between a mile to maybe 5 miles north of the Columbia and Portland, which at the greater extent (5 miles) agrees with Sluggo's analysis. ?? We then moved to a consideration of how money could get to Tina Bar, say from Orchards-Scotton. There is no direct water route. I then showed there is a direct rail link, however, which passes directly from Scotton area to directly behind Tina Bar. This Ckret is convinced the condition of the money dictates a water route. I disagree with that analysis and favour land storage (with wet periods) were the money was pressed and compacted by an overlay of soil, with mainly edge rotting. In spite of the above I went ahead to prove a water route to Tina Bar via the Columbia which depends on the Willamette confluence taking debris into the area of Vancouver Lake all the way up to Tina Bar by an inland route. That scenario will require a hydologist's opinion. Jo pointed out that locals and farmers "know their own land" and no local person had ever noticed money at Tina Bar or anywhere else in the area over the years. Lastly, a 2400-2600ft forward throw (based on 1000 feet per 100mph) has been suggested as applying to the Cooper jump, subject to a 20 knot SE to NW wind drift. I think that inland water routes to Tina Bar are so problematic as to be unrealistic in this case. The only direct route to Tina Bar from the projected DZ is a rail line which literally goes straight behind Tina Bar at a relatively close distance. If inland water routes are not realistic (for many reasons) then we have the prospect of Cooper or someone delivering money to the Columbia or Tina Bar, by some means other than water. If it was Cooper then he survived the jump enough to travel. The money gets to Tina Bar by some reason! If Rataczak and others could see the lights of Portland Cooper could see them too! He knew where he was at in general terms and bailed. He needs the cover of night and few people so he bails not at Portland but before it to get to the Columbia to steal a boat to get back across the Columbia to Portland where perhaps he has a car? He loses money in the area of Tina Bar or before it along the Columbia in the process of looking for a boat to steal. Or maybe he has an altercation with someone and loses the money to them and they travel up the river toward Tina Bar and disappear? George.

IF ANY OF YOU ARE DEPENDING ON THESE THINGS THAT SNOWMMAN AND GEORGER HAVE POSTED FROM THEIR ON-LINE SEARCH - YOU ARE GOING TO BE DISAPPOINTED. The Lake River and Lake Vancouver along with Salmon Creek - does not work. AS PER - two individuals who live there and know the river and its surrounding. Those bodies of water are not as you are theorizing with your maps. Lake River flows N. and Salmon Creek empties into the River Lake all of which is above Tina's Bar and the water flows NORTH - therefore those avenues are impossible.

I'm thinking the exact year is not important. (although I suspect the satellite image is

REPLY> Good photos of Tina Bar debris. Definately shows it can happen as Ckret thinks. Will go back to find the year of this debris - 96? Im not sure what to think of the Salmon Creek idea, so mulling it over and reading ...

Jo dont go to any special trouble over this. Please!

Yeah, that sentence stood out to me as well. If the fragments were so adherent that they didn't reveal themselves to handling before... ltdiver Good find.

ah you're correct..I didn't look closely enough. weird the '74 dredging occured that year. For completeness, I've attached the court case that incidentally documented the August '74 dumping of 175,000 cubic yards of sand on the opposite side of the Columbia River. I've referred to this before. (page 2, top of column 2) (the court case by itself is curiously interesting also!) So I don't know if the high water levels in '74 in the williamette were after the dredging at the Fazios. They might have been. REPLY? Yes, '74 must have been an interesting year for the dredgers.. 76 is also wet however, just not as wet. I wonder what the Fazio's think about all of this?

yeah, look back at post 2034 to get all the photos. I was interested in reading that Vancouver Lake had high fecal coliform levels. One of the reasons they built the "flushing channel" in later years from the lake to the columbia was to improve the water quality. My random guess is that the bills don't show any contamination by manure or other fecal wastes. But I don't know. It would be interesting if so. But the two things I just noticed: purple on front correlated to green to yellow fade on back, and purple on the un-inked paper surface, seem interesting to me. And it appears the front green ink didn't fade, while the back did (on individual bills). I've read about different ink compositions, so a specialist might have insight there...I've read the ink maybe changes slightly with different batches. Also, I'm surprised by the integrity of the edges, even though decomposed. I was wondering if the bills might have had their edges "brushed" or "picked" clean for display by the Ingrams. So a equally detailed photo of the FBI bills is probably needed, just in case the Ingram bills were "detailed" for auction in any way. I doubt they did any chemical treatment or washing, since numismatics don't like that...they like it untreated. REPLY> I agree with just abt all of this. Logically, if the whole area behind T Bar is contaminated with methane or whatever, eve chemicals from a sand pit operation, oils and the like ... and the money shows none of these contaminations then the money was probably never BEHIND Tina Bar. That Fazio farm and operation could prove a Godsend in helping trace the 'path' of the money - Im sure Ckret knows this. Yes the edges on that bill alone look uniformly worn which suggests a stable environment & decay over time but I hasten to add the rest of the lot shows huge decay and destruction, so put everything in context and Im not sure what that spells. The outer bills would be subject to the forces of nature - the inner bills more protected... I just want tests run to see what the facts really are and then go from there. Thats my position on this - WHERE IS SAFECRACKING! Did he leave unhappy or something? He was one of the reasons I finally came here alongside you and Sluggo, and Ckret of course. I hope I have said nothing to upset or offend him. But I am concerned about this. Any remarks would be appreciated and I wish he were back even if I have toi shut up to do it! He was a very valuable special asset in this discourse prior to my coming here ... I will leave it at that and hope he appears. Thanks..

QuoteI found historical peak flows measured at Salem, OR for the Williamette. http://www.nwrfc.noaa.gov/floods/papers/usgs_large_floods.pdf While we know of the flooding in 1996, a comparison to 1996 on the chart (attached) seems to show late 1976 (or early '77?) was a high year also. Not as bad as 1996 though. Note severe floods in the '60s (worse) are marked. REPLY> I read the high at 74 not 76/77. See attached. And this was for the Salem station not Portland. I looked for similar data and a graph for Vancouver but just ran out of time looking - I do have all the money photos you posted - got them at the time. I was here at this Board some time just reading the mail before ever posting.

I wish NOVA (PBS) would take this on -

REPLY> Well,,, to me the yellowing is oxydisation, of the green pigmented ink. The purple is probably the same as the black, just in a different stage of development _ both fungal, ie mold stain. The same basic thing you see in a bathroom if allowed to grow. I would have some of the bills tested using mass spectroscopy. You may be right. The presence of ink might inhibit the growth of mold in some way. I just dont know - That is a great photo.

I have copied your questions here and will put these directly to my paper guys here - AFTER THE FOURTH! Its a holiday! Go watch some fireworks and cook some wieners. Take a day off.