georger

Just as a heads up. One of my money people surfaced. Like everyone else around here he is busy picking up the pieces after our flooding so has no time for this. He suggested calling Treasury where they are experts. His email has been given to Ckret. George.

Were you talking about the soil? Or the magnosphere? REPLY> Mainly in soil or in the geological environment as opposed to the magnetosphere. However if there are strong affects in the magnetosphere as from a strong solar outburst, then domains can reorient. We need to make a distinction here in types of magnetism. Permeability of the magnetism. Weak magnetic properties as in iron bearing ink where elemental Fe atoms are in lose bonds vs deep magnetism where large Fe arrays are in strong bonds with other atoms as in a potsherd. Weak magnetic associations are easily changed and change depending on the environment. Strong magnetic bonds are fixed until some strong force changes the orientation. (This is why firing pottery at a high temp will change magnetic orientations in the clay to that of the surrounding kiln vs. the softer less fixed magnatism found in paper money. Or, changing the domain orientation of a metal magnet vs the weaker orientations on a VCR tape! ). There may be magnetic properties in money I am not aware of. A Treasury Dept physicist would know. But I believe all magnatism in money is of a low order of permeability. (again not like a potsherd) From 1971 Seattle Sectional: The following warning boxes are shown on the chart: Around Bridal Veil Falls: Magnetic disturbances of as much as 8° exist at ground level between Bridal Veil and Troutdale. Around St. Helens, Or (Near Woodland, WA, not Mt. St Helens): Magnetic disturbances of as much as 6° exist at ground level Just south of St. Helens Near Quincy, OR: Magnetic disturbances of as much as 8° exist at ground level between Quincy and Longview. REPLY> Areas of strong magnetic variation would alter the domain orientation to the local displacement, over time. But the moment the money moves to a different location domain orientation changes again. The only isogonic lines shown on the 1971 chart show the magnetic deviation as 21° 30' East near Toutle and 21 Deg° 0' East near Oswego (Along the flight path.). From USGS: On 11/24/1971 USGS (NGDC) shows normal progression in Magnetic Declination of: Toutle: 46° 17.939'N 122° 43.911'W Declination = 20° 55' E changing by 0° 2' W/year Oswego: 45° 25.147'N 122° 42.541'W Declination = 20° 27' E changing by 0° 2' W/year On 07/17/2008 USGS (NGDC) shows normal progression in Magnetic Declination of: Toutle: 46° 17.939'N 122° 43.911'W Declination = 16° 53' E changing by 0° 9' W/year Oswego: 45° 25.147'N 122° 42.541'W Declination = 16° 38' E changing by 0° 9' W/year So, I would say that an area located along the Pacific Oceanic Plate/North American Continental Plate subduction zone was "very magnetically active". REPLY> Again, the issue of the Permeability of the magnatism in currency is what defeats using money as a magnetic record of its life history, so far as I know. Think of a dollar bill more like a compass needle than as a fixed atomic arrangement which is going to show a permanent (fixed) history. I have thought about this quite a lot, Sluggo. If there was something I knew about in the money of a magnetic nature that would tell its travel history, I would have already said something about it. In fact the plane did fly near the Trojan Nuclear Station (near St. Helens, OR/Longview, WA. Now decommissioned, but running in 1971). But what you are suggesting is virtually impossible given the “environmental levels” of stack discharge (Trojan had a gas decay system, where gases are sequestered and released after a long decay period, keeping environmental discharges very low.) The detection instruments just aren't that sensitive. REPLY> I know this. This is why I have never brought it up. As I said in my post, I know of nothing of a radioactive nature which bears on this case ... The same is true for Cooper if he worked at a commercial nuclear facility or defense facility. It would be possible if the had been given “Therapeutic Levels” of unsealed radio-nuclides (such as used in Radiation Oncology procedures) but those nuclides have very short half-lives and would only be present for a few hours (days at the most). REPLY> Agreed unless he was hot for some other reason that no one was aware of. Or unless he had been a worker and was dying for some reason and blamed the company ... which goes to motivation. I am not aware that anyone ever ran to #305 with a geiger counter at Reno or examined Cooper's seat or his personal effects, just as a matter of precaution. He appeared to be in good physical health. George

A few more comments about magnetic effects: I dont see the magnetic properties of currency as any panacea for tracing the Cooper money. The money is no longer in situ (at the site of discovery). The time to have done a magnetic search was when the Tina Bar site was virgin and undisturbed. Any magnetic traces of this money are long gone. These are small mico effects at the atomic level which are easily changed and eliminated by time in the environment. While it is true that the magnetic properties in iron can change due to environmental effects, those effects represent forces well above any ordinary forces in nature, and even if the magnetic poles of the Earth had changed between 1971 and 1980 that alone would not secure a location of the money short of knowing it was north or south of the equator. Other forces which can change magnatism in iron bearing objects are heat (extreme heat), high intensity solar flares, proximity to dyanamos and strong electrical forces such as at dams or power stations - presumably not ever involved in the Cooper case and not involved at or anywhere near Tina Bar, so far as I know. These forces donot include friction, cold above absolute zero, wind, water, changes in air pressure, and the like. And the magnetic properties of the money would diminish as the iron bearing ink eroded and left the paper of the bills. (That iron bearing ink would go into the sourroundings, however). I considered the magnetic properties of money a long time ago as a possible method for tracing the Cooper money. I also have considered the radioactive properties in money. I see nothing there unless the atomic properties of the money could be compared to some specific site. But age is also a factor in such tests. And just to cover all bases at this moment, I also considered gross radioactive possibilities as for example if Flight #305 had flown very near a nuclear facility which left traces in the money, in Cooper (and everyone else!), as a possible line to trace the path of the money. Or say if Cooper himself had been an employee at some facility where he was exposed to radiation and 'hot' to some extent, thus leaving traces in the money and himself which could be tracked later. I can only assume there was never any evidence to suggest a trace of this kind would be necessary or productive. (for public safety or for forensic reasons). But since I brought up (finally) the magnetic properties of currency tonight I thought perhaps I should add a few words of explanation ... George be compared

Nice photos. Thanks. A few odd remarks about money etc as per Snowmman and you. (a) The "stickingtogetherness" of the money. Yes it does matter. Why? What is stuck in between matters. They were bundles., now blocks. Before they were blocks their environment left traces in between bills and blocks that would give a positive ID to their history. Nuff saide. (b) Who would I like to talk to? Someone atTreasurey or the conservator at the auctionhouse or someone at Quantico versed in these matters. That would clear up a multitude of questions, potentially. (c) Cellulose decay. Yes cellulose decays rapidly in soil or even when exposed to open air. And very rapidly when left in water - which works against any washdown theory. Snowmman is correct there are many technical studies on the net - but all proprietary. These studies make me wonder if money exposed to water then to wet land for a multitude of years would have survived at all - with or without protection. The bundles of bills themselves would offer protection but not submerged in water and only on land. That inturpretation is consistent with everything I have found. (d) Magnetism in currency. The Ink in currency contains elemental iron and other metals, most meaureable in a magnetic field. Money can be traced with a magnetometer as it passes hand-to-hand. The magnetic properties of currency can be traced through the soil given appropriate conditions and assays. Large masses of money can be traced *very easily* by tracking their magnetic signatures through a dense medium. The magnetic properties of the currency should be similar to what they were when the money was given Cooper, unless acted upon by some extraneous magnetic force in the meantime. The area of Tina Bar seems to be magnetically neutral consisting mainly of sedimentary deposits with no strong hematite, magnetite, etc content in the environment - which could reorient iron domains in the currency as a local effect over time. This may not be the case for geological areas further north and northwest from wehich the money is alleged to have come. A field strength test of the money could be done. (The ink in a common dollar bill will react to any strong magnet. This is a basic experiment done in grade school science classes). Lastly, look at Sluggo's #20 bill photo posted today. Notice what look like iron oxide stains. This is rather unmistakable. This is the fist piece of this money I have ever seen which seems to show clearcut iron rust staining. This could not have come from the small amonts of iron in the ink of these bills. It looks like iron rust from a piece of metal. But I bring it to your attention for further inquiry - George

Yes. Looking at the Corbis photo that has 12 bundles. We see 11 with face pictures, one with a visible back. (also: the top view AP photo helps a little for judging the relative whiteness of some of the tops..not all 12 bundles in that photo though) Since the bundles were split from the original 3, we should only see 3 face pictures that are "darker" or more weathered than the others. The two bundles on the right seem darker, more weathered, and may be tops of the original bundles. So maybe those can be used for estimating the deterioration from the original top. The rest of the tops seem whiter and probably were interior to the original 3 bundles. Also: there is a rumor/myth that of the 3 bundles, 2 were in rubber bands, and the third was thinner with no rubber band. I think Ckret has said all 3 had rubber bands. Be nice to clear up this myth. Also: Since the auction house has pieced together new bills, we should increase the count of actual bills found? Since we know the bundles were random sized, I don't know if that helps us though. REPLY> will find and post tonight - its a madhouse here. The auction co has pieced together 35+ ?? new serial numbers not previously counted and they are still working. Without any question there was a LOT more than the $5800 advertised by the media, at the T Bar. That is now fully established fact, just for starters. Please pull links to deterioration pdf's you find and post them here? You have far better searche enginer than I do, and it is appreciated. George

I will say one more thing here quickly - The techniques used to excavate at T Bar are shown in your photo attached here - Bulldozer. Shovels. Rakes. They did use a screen but the guy working the screen is looking for LARGE fragments with a rake, like you would use looking for potsherds. It was a quick and dirty operation by all accounts. Conclusion: They dont have the faintest idea how much money was originally at the site because they didnt use any of the techniques needed to determine that. They just assumed what was obvious was all that was ever there, and moved on. What was found could be the final remnant of what was originally 'all of the money' !

I've been wondering about why most of the bills have been rounded off. I think it's obvious that the brittle edges fell off very easily. See the "crumbs" on the table. REPLY> Its a sign of equal deterioration from equal exposure on all sides (inward) - the same from above and below which means - no protective bag for some time. Also notice the relative flatness of the bundles. REPLY> This caught my attention immediately. Its compression from weight of the soil above. The weight of the soil above and around the bundles held them together.. if there were more bundles which had rotted on any side of the bundles found, the soil at those locations would be chemically ripe and show up in tests (which were not done - no soil samples were saved evidently) The auction house also noted the compression of these bills from weight above. The tech at the auction house said the bills were so compressed she had a very difficult time separating some of them and in fact later afforts to separate fragments lead to finding 36? more bills than previously known. This indicates the bundles found were larger in extent at some time. Didnt you try and email this auction house to get details? I thought you did? George

REPLY> Glad you are back - have no idea! Good questions all. I also tried to locate early maps of T Bar area but without any success. They would be available from the USGS but Im not going to spend the rest of my life looking for them. I sent two paper & currency experts an email; people I had already talked to earlier (as per earlier posts). Things got shut down here due to the floods - it is chaos here. So hearing nothing for weeks I finally just talked to the secretary for one of the men and Im hoping to have something soon. Any further photos you can come up with of T-Bar money would be helpful. Without a doubt, when T Bar was dug they would have found further fragments. I hope they documented their dig! George

Quick reply> yours thoughts are mine exactly. A find like he reports would have gone straight to somebody! The area of the Columbia is not like dense forests of the Amazon!

Been browsing poking around. Guess its dead here. By agreement nobody bothered to informus about? Found one guy (DB Cater) who posted on City-Data.com as follows: [to all who seek D B COOPER.i was boatn with friends on the columb.river when i was younger and we stopd on a island and i walkd back in the woods and saw a parachute hangn from a old bare tree . didnt go to it because my friends dad yelld that it was time to go ...then years later i learnd about the db cooper thing..cant help to wonder~~~ cool.] George

I will also say this ... Clear back in 1972-73a person at Vancouver said: 'This will take years to solve, if it ever gets solved, because there are just too many vested interests involved on all sides, and this has become a public circus'. She went on to say: 'Ive never seen somethig that has so many ego's and personal reputations working against each other. They don't even know where this Cooper jumped out! They were probably too busy arguing over details and making phone calls. There are company people and FBI people and law people and every Tom, Dick, and Harry working for a different newspaper involved in this - each with a different story.' 'I think it was somebody inside, somebody small, somebody very angry who had had enough of the (redacted) and he suspected once he started the ball rolling he could just slip out the back and people would spend so much time arguing with each other, he would get away and never be found. I don't think he will ever be found because I think there are people who don't want him found in order to keep their own dirty laundry from being exposed'. 'This is somebody who knew what he was doing and knew how the system works. He thought he could slip out the back door and never be found. I think somebody knows who it was and they are going to let him go in order to protect themselves.' 'That is how the system works and everyone knows it. There will be people jump out and say its not that way at all, but from Cooper's perspective that is exactly how it is or he would never have done this.' That was one observer's position on the Cooper case written in 1972-73. Georger

REPLY> Well Jo, hmmm, what do I say - several things perhaps from my perspective. I am sure a lot goes on in the background. Email between people and such. I try to stay out of that and keep my cards on the table. I know there are some with a large personal investment in this. I am not sure why this became so important to you. That is something only you could answer. I could observe that some people are interested in this for all the wrong reasons, while others tend to have a more objective interest? Anything carried to excess is not good, and you know that. And everyone here has their own objectives. There are some things in life you have no control over and must let pass. And pulling away from a thing sometimes let's it resolve itself. That is the best advice I can give. It's nobody's business but yours. Georger

What he said... these guys have really added value. don't worry about the hebrew, nothing of significance!! REPLY> Ok. To continue... Someone bash me on the head if I am out of place here but,... _ topics being discussed were: (a) years of dredging both sides of the Columbia that could affect Tina Bar. (b) what exactly were the wet years 71-80 and how may that apply to money at Tina Bar. With charts and graphs previously shown I think we concluded there were no outstandingly wet years, with 76-77 being the wetest? I have a new chart for 79-80 and will show that shortly (c) other non-water scenarios for money arriving at Tina Bar? (d) The new DZ or LZ and exactly what did happen. Sluggo wants "facts and only the facts" so we need "facts"! Sluggo brought up facts. He always brings up "facts" which of course he should do. But, we take old facts that were never connected and make new facts. We try to find new facts. We try to make plausible scenarios which were rejected or missed before, all based on a new interpretation of "the facts" (new or old). And we challenge old facts if it turns out there is substantial reason for doing so. I am sure Sluggo can add or amend this ....... it goes without saying. New ideas! Bring em forth. Ok, now that I have made a total ass of myself let's get going. If this is to be... Thanks, George.

Orange and I will have to work this out behind the scenes. After the photos were posed I was hoping Snow would reply (I had a tip) , but alas he did not and is probably laughing at us.. its well deserved if he is and Im hoping he is enjoying life. What I am a bit curious about is Snow's Magical Search engine(s). As Ckret has noted, Snow is able to focus in on things very quickly, with a wealth of materials always. Now I suspect I know why! I did appreciate Snow's participation, very much. He was our center when Sluggo or Ckret are not here, and I acknowledge that. I guess we carry on as best we can and hope for the best. Hopfully Sluggo and Ckret will have some suggestions & guidance. You do all realise, Snowmman did the workof three people! Damn, that will be impossible to replace not mention liking the guy, "very much". George

Lamah ha'ivrit? cen - l'ha? dober b'ivrit? ma atah choshev?! - cen, aval achshav rak k'tzat - lamaditi k'tzat b'vet hasefer v'gam b'yisrael, aval hayah shanim b'avar! chosehv? b'englit !!! b'vasqisha! when I saw Snowmman's digs I couldnt resist. I guess snowmman meant of temporary nature, like a snowman? But I still dont know what the two 'm's Skuggo referred to are all about. More riddles. Snowmman did say several days ago there were 'three more days'. So evidently he is on the move or busy. Obviously people here know far more about it than I do. Do we continue or is this the end?

Lamah ha'ivrit? cen - l'ha? dober b'ivrit?

Cen ani ma'nishmah. Radaq shalom v' tov miod - todah.

More than I want to read ANY book, I want to rummage through the evidence files. The files may not contain the truth, but they do contain the facts! (As in; “The facts ma’am, just the facts.”) The last few days are a good example of why I don’t read NORJAK books. Sluggo_Monster (Still waiting for a nickname) REPLY> "The truth is more than the facts" (Li-Po-Hsaing) "Facts are not truth" (Karl Jung) "If I had stayed only with the facts I never would have seen this..." (Albert Einstein) "Albert thought he had the facts until ......." (Mileva-Maric Einstein) Many people have thought they had the facts. You have joined an illustrious crowd of humans.

Apparently it was both sides. The sand from the OR side went to that side, the sand from the WA side went to the Fazios. The only info I was able to dredge up was the indirect reference to the cubic yards dumped on the Reeder ranch on the other side. I already posted that a while back... I exchanged email with the guy who owns the Reeder RV place there (and Reeder beach) and he confirmed that it was his aunt and that sand had been dumped there. But I have no detail about where in the river they dredged, or how far up or down river. Tosaw quotes numbers for the cubic yards dumped on the Fazio side, in Oct. '74. The Reeder side referenced Aug. '74 as the dredge time, with a similar, but not exactly the same number of cubic yards of material. (by Army Corps of Engineers) I had a thought that dredging in that area, meant sediment deposited, making the channel less deep. That would mean the river flow slowed, dropping sediment. Maybe because the river was going from narrow to wide there? Not sure why there needed dredging. What about other places (which is what you imply, I think.) OK>> we need to find the exact area dredged which should be fairly easy to do ... (smile). 73? spring of 74 to Oct of 74 ...

Something is amiss. Maybe the pencil plots had big range errors but 1971 radar, even cheap ones, had sweep to sweep range errors at least an order of magnitude better than .5 miles. If I was tied to Pier 47 in SF and painting Alcatraz with my 1969 vintage Decca 101 X band radar, the Alcatraz echo image stayed put... no visually perceptible range variation from sweep to sweep. Absolute range accuracy (comparing to govt nav chart) was within 1 or 2 %. It is really easy to get accurate and stable radar ranging by using a crystal controlled sweep oscillator to control the radial (ranging) sweep of the CRT electron beam. Even a free running oscillator of good design would do a decent job at getting the range right and minimizing range error drift. 377 OK... there are posts about the gear being used at the time but these posts are old ... but will look. Thanks for these details... I have no problem with "standard error" and it looks like thats exactly what we have. Sluggo's latest post on this is very good.

OK. Direct question. Is there ANYTHING you know that suggests or documents Cooper saying his bomb was "electronic" and could be triggered by a squak signal, saide to anyone?

Either Cooper is taking out of his you know what or he is trying to intimidate the crew. Not "intimidating them into not sending them a squawk signal" just plain intimidating them. If someone gave me a message like that I would assume, just like the crew, they meant don't go to 7500, which is the code for Unlawful Interference aka hijacking. To answer your questions though... Squawking the signal has little to do with tracking. For Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) in the U.S. (IFR is what all commercial flights operated under), a plane is generally assigned a transponder code at the clearance delivery stage on the ground and it stays with that aircraft the entire flight. So tracking isn't an issue. It is more a backup way of letting ATC know you have a situation on board. If you have a guy in the cockpit with you demanding you don't tell air traffic control you are being hijacked you may be able to get away with changing your transponder to the code. As for explaining why no squawk was sent... If you are referring to the code the crew was supposed to send when Cooper jumped it doesn't. That code wasn't the hijack code, it was a code given by ATC that Cooper would not have any knowledge of. If you are referring to the hijack code, they obviously were able to communicate the message over the radio. REPLY> I wonder if this is true? This is an astounding thing if Cooper said this, especially in the context of technically trained people. On the other hand, if this is true and Cooper believed this, then it may imply COOPER DID NOT BUILD HIS OWN BOMB - SOMEBODY ELSE DID - or HE BUILT A BOMB OUT OF COMPONENTS HE DID NOT UNDERSTAND (and somebody, at Radio Shack?, told him this transistor or diode or tr switch was vulnerable to: RFI, Cosmic Rays, FBI rays ) ??? I think you all know what I am saying here - Wont day more until this is clarified...

REPLY> That is interesting. Why would he think he could fool anyone on that!? This paints the same portrait Ckret has pushed namely: 'had enough superficial knowledge to be dangerous'. (but also stupid in the face of technical people). I wont get into the techgnical aspects of this but Cooper is basically describing a situation that would be dangerous even for himself ... no bomb control. If this is true it could be very telling ... (and almost a relief!). Does anyone know exactly what frequency and mode we are talking about here?

I like your epilogue!!!

The dredging: What is your understanding of How far either side of Tina Bar the river was dredged? Links? George