georger

REPLY> The odds are good that cards will be mailed back after such finds, even by people who have stolen the radiosonnes or whatever was in the packages. I was in a group of youth who did such a study in the 1950's. Out of 13 helium baloons launched with mice and other things attached 11 cards were returned. We calculated the odds, with the help of our science teacher, presented the work and won the State's science fair and a trip to Argonne National Laboratories in Chciago where we got to meet Robt Oppenheimer. Ogden's Kosher Grocery supplied the baloons and the helium. My grandmother's barn supplied the mice and a rat snake. Things like that are done all the time.

why is it astronomical? > Key word is random chance. The money was found at Tina Bar, not Frenchman's Bar. We must assume the money was where it was found not by random chance but as part of a process, because of a concrete set of circumstances. Just as Ckret reasons the money condition says it was protected somehow. Yes. If the money had been found at I5 then some set of conditions would account for that. Had it been found in Bejing something would account for that. Had it been found on Mons Olympus on Mars - something would account for that! You must examine "immediate causes" first - if that fails look for something more complex. In the case of Tina Bar the immediate causes are obvious: (a) the money was in or near the Willamette-Columbia confluence. (b) The natural hydrological processes in the area left the money at Tina Bar, because hydrologically gravity overcame the drainage forces active on the package to leave it stuck near the top of the bank at Tina Bar. You could also speculate the money arrived at Tina Bar by washing down from further behind Tina Bar. I actually looked at the terrain behind the bar. You can see it in the photo attached. There is a steep incline behind Tina Bar. Maybe Cooper landed near there? That is one plausable theory except for the fact the money and Cooper remains probably would have been noticed further inland. So I opt for the hydrological explanation because the Willamette- Columbia Confluence does offer a mode of conveyance to Tina Bar . If it was found at Frenchman's Bar, is the probability the same? Are you saying that any find location is astronomical? Or just specific ones? If it was found at the I-5 crossing of the Columbia, would anything change? Here's another question. Assume I'm Cooper and I want to plant some money such that it looks like I died. Assume I'm smart enough to realize that the FBI will get my LZ area reasonably close, and that they could be lying about how much they really know. Where would you (Cooper) plant the money? Remember it needs to be found before it decomposes away. REPLY> If I were Cooper I would keep all the money except for what I offered "my friend in time of need" Tina Mucklow. WILDCARD> except if I still wanted Tina Mucklow to have some money and I knew of a place called "Tina Bar" and so I left money for TINA at TINA BAR, intending to tell her later somehow. You wanted a comspiracy theory - there you have one! Or if he wanted the world to know and did this as a sign to tell us: "Im still alive!". Did Tina even have a badge that gave her name? I dont know. Yes, something wierd like this is possible. It would have profound implications. But once again if Cooper had donesomething like this he never would have left the discovery to random chance and would have alerted somebody (somehow) to 'go look'. You do come up with wild cards. (laughing) Also: how much would you plant?

photo is there now. same one everyone has seen before but didnt take as evidence.

You don't know the patterns of silt deposit and erosion. There could be 2" of deposit and erosion daily for all we know, during the high water period. The high water mark may be reached every year for all we know. You don't have the 1980 Tina Bar geology report, so you don't know if it's in error about the clay layer. You also don't have data on the material that was moved during dredging. What you're saying is that you heard a geologist said something and you believe it. You don't have data on whether earth moving equipment moved sand on Tina's Bar or not. Or whether the sand on Tina Bar is a mixture of dredging spoils and natural sediment deposit. So all you can really say firsthand is "I Don't Know". REPLY> Snowmman, this isnt rocket science. Even a causual search on hydrological facts about the Columbia at Vancouver-Portland documents the "fact" of the Willamette diverting water into the Vancouver Lake-to-Tina Bar area. This is well known, documented, and the Vancouver Lake was dredged in the early 1980's of Willamette silts for this very reason. This fact offers a well known and documented hydrological reason for how something coming down the Columbia or even coming from the Portland side of the Columbia, could wind up in the Vancouver Lake to Tina Bar area. Tosaw knew this hydrological fact and it was the whole reason Tosaw and his divers explored this area, after money was found at Tina Bar. All of this is easily retrieved by a Google search on /1980 dreding of Vancouver Lake/ with supporting USGS research documents. During floods these effects are very pronounced. Very likely, the money/bag at Tina Bar was left after high water subsided and drained back into the main channel, after a wet period as Ingram reported. The money was found high on the bank (at a break point) Look at the photo of Igram attached. He is sitting at the breakpoint of a steep incline which falls back to the channel. If it had been less than the whole mass of bag of money and only some bundles, very likely the money would have washed down the incline with the receding water and been gone. See the photo attached - Ingram is standing at the high breakpoint in the bank. The only question is: where did the money come from? I think it could just as easily have come from the Portland side vs. downstream on the Columbia. In fact, the Portland side offers a far more direct and far less destructive route than having come all the way down the Columbia. The Portland side could account for the relative good condition of the money. I think there is a reason the money was found at Tina Bar which goes directly to where Cooper bailed out. The money at Tina Bar is not the result of some convoluted theory of a Washougal or Lacamas washdown. Rather the money at Tina Bar IS the evidence of Cooper's bailout, or the money would not be at Tina Bar at all! The probability of the money being at Tina Bar by random chance is astronomical. I have said this from the start but nobody will believe it! The money is at Tina Bar ONLY because there is a direct link between Cooper and this area, given the hydrological facts that apply IN THIS AREA ONLY! No other evidence of Cooper has ever been found anywhere else ON THE WHOLE PLANET! Sluggo's flight PATH is approximately correct but his TIMES are wrong. His times are wrong because they cannot put Cooper where Cooper money was found. The money and Cooper go together in a direct causal link. (and for God's sake dont give me more gobblewooble about causality because I studied under Gustaf Bergmann who wroite the damned book on CAUSALITY: "The Philosophy of Science"; Gustav Bergmann, UI Press). There is a DIRECT LINK between Cooper and his money. Tina Bar and Portland and Vancouver and the Willamette and Columbia are the area of the link. I think, having failed his primary jump point at Seattle Cooper simply waited to get back to where he had started which was Portland, an easily identifiable place from 10000 feet, and he jumped. I tend to favour he jumped on the Portland side (if Sluggo will give me the extra 30-60 seconds that would require). He may have augered in as you originally suggested months ago and then over time the bag is released and the Willamette forces take it into Vancouver Lake and up to Tina bar during a flood period. This would account for nothing but Cooper's money ever being found. He may have even augered in at Vancouver Lake if he was able to see the Portland airport lights. That would account for why nobody found any trace of him and dredging on the Columbia bypassed him, until finally his bag is released during hi water to flow up to and be deposited at the breakpoint in the bank at Tina Bar. That's what I think pending further evidence. The hydrological part of this is easy once you realise the obvious - the Willamette confluence with the Columbia. [send me a percentage of royalities!]

Someone (Jo, Sluggo?) mentioned experimenting with bundled dollar bills. What was the float time? 377 REPLY> Try SafecrackingPLF on or about April 1, 08. Rumor is there was an estimate on float time for a bag filled with cash, but that's only a rumor. Some say it was "2 minutes" but only a real chemist can say. I will look it up in the Almanac and report back.

Reply: Here is a map of the swath from BTG down to Portland Intl Airport. You will see Heisson (eyewitness report), BTG VOR on V23, Orchards (possible DZ), and Portland ITL where it all started. If money winds up on the ground near the Columbia in this swath, it has a much easier route to going just up to the bend of the river thenwashing back inland in a flood, later winding up at Tina Bar. That's one of four possible theories. What are you trying to do. According to the best information we have the plane didn't actually overfly BTG. It was a mile east. The Heisson story doesn't make sense, plus you location is off by about a mile. For it to check out the plane would have to be 5.5 miles off off of V-23 and about 6 miles off of the radar track. " ....Dennis Levanen, who lives in the Heisson area, said he vividly remembers the airplane flying directly over his house on Thanksgiving Eve in 1971. He quibbles with the FBI’s flight path of the airplane, noting that it appears several miles west of where it actually flew. A plane at 10,000 feet is no where near huge. At night with no lights, partially to mostly clouded skies there is no way you would see it. Lastly, why is PDX marked? Reply> Agree 100%! No points I marked on these maps are definitive of anything, outside of Tina Bar. They are merely points which have been mentioned. I could not agree with you more.l Unless I missed it, even with Sluggo's revised flight path we still have no definitive jump point. Orchards, Hokinson were mentioned by Sluggo, briefly? Then somone asked Ckret if the rumor was true that Scotton Corner and Brush Prarie were being searched by the FBI but Ckret never replied to that. So I am exactly where you are in most of this. I do know enough about fluid dynamics to see a relationship btwn the Willamette and the Columbia for bringing debris into the Vancouver Lake - Tina Bar area NOT BECAUSE I SAY IT BUT BECAUSE THE USGS SAYS IT AND HAS PUBLISHED PAPERS ON FINE SILT SEDIMENT DRIFT FROM THE WILLAMETE ACROSS THE COLUMBIA INTO VANCOUVER LAKE and subsequent dreding of Vancouver Lake because of it (1982-83). (Just do a Google search on Vancouver Lake dredging) I guess it was a total waste of time to make these maps so from now on it belongs to Sluggo and Snowmman and Ckret who will solve this case. Good luck.

I said that 100 posts back...

Reply> I see you live on the wild side. I have two facts that might apply: 1) I drove past Woodburn this weekend 2) 377 has fished for tuna, and has used rubber bands.

agree...

Reply> The money arrived no earlier than 1974, and no later than the last flood which could have left it there, minus time for silt eroded in the meantime to yield the 2" silt overlay found.

Snowmman is right about no logical basis for positively concluding that the money was washed onto Tina Bar (sp?), but I think all the attention to flow and paths makes good sense as it might tell us where Cooper jumped. It is amazing to me that any jump artifacts have been found. The fact that two were found, the money and the placard, makes me think that if items as large as Coopers body and rig were out there, they likely would have been found. REPLY> Good thoughts. I also struggle with no artifacts being found. Everything happens for a reason. *It almost suggests an extinguishing factor. Like something wiped all clues directly related to Cooper, or on his person, except for wads of money of which there were 'many' pieces to find their way back into surface reality. If he had dropped into a volcano or into the mouth of a sturgeon ... well then he would be gone in-total. It has to be something more than terrain and woods and circumstance (after all these years of people looking etc), in my opinion. Unless he fell into something which by its very nature is 100% obliterating ... like a black hole! Now. I have not posted this yet but my charts of the flow direction and Willamette confluence suggest to me the money came to Tina Bar most logically by travel from one of four directions. Either into the Vancouver Lake area from the sky above, or into the same area by land from north or east, or from some point before the Willamette in the Columbia, or from the south side of the Columbia perhaps Portland or the Willamette itself! If the money had been analysed throughly at the beginning we might not be having this discussion. Traits carried by the money might have suggested a specific history. But, we now know that a hydrologic process can account for the money being at Tina Bar .. vs at Mary's Tavern!

Jo you are sharp! Never doubted that for a minute. Thanks!! george

Posted is a map which offers a partial conveyance route to Tina Bar. Its pretty obvious once you see it. The Willamette River empties into Columbia below (before) Tina Bar and offers a strong cross current confluence with the Columbia, as evidenced by Willamette "Quaternary Marine fine silts" being deposited in Vancouver Lake vs. coarse grain basaltic silts endemic to the Columbia itself (ref - USGS) Under high water/high volume conditions, the Willamette diverts Columbia material into ... guess where. The Vancouver Lake-to-Tina Bar area. [This is an estabished fact already spoken to by myself earlier in these pages, using USGS articles which reference "fine Qauternary Marine silt" from the Willamette deposited in Vancouvr Lake vrs. the coarse grain basaltic silts of the Columbia itself. The Willamette River offers a strong cross current diversion at its confluence with the Columbia. This is what the dredging of Vancouvr Lake 1982-83 was all about and why]. This offers a hydrological explanation of how material arriving on the Columbia could wind up in Vancouver Lake and up to Tina Bar. This does NOT explain how Cooper money got into the Columbia prior to the Willamette confluence, in the first place. I attach a vectoring map which shows the relationship. Once again I apologise for the lousy quality of the graphic but it gets the point across... Georger -

Reply: Here is a map of the swath from BTG down to Portland Intl Airport. You will see Heisson (eyewitness report), BTG VOR on V23, Orchards (possible DZ), and Portland ITL where it all started. If money winds up on the ground near the Columbia in this swath, it has a much easier route to going just up to the bend of the river thenwashing back inland in a flood, later winding up at Tina Bar. That's one of four possible theories.

Reply: This photo was taken my merging RGBV filtered black and white photos taken with a ST9 ccd (SBig) using an 18" cassegrain. A good 10-12" scope will show a lot of deatil in the M4 area as well as with any Messier object. M42 in Orion shows colour (red-green-blue) otherwise it takes a larger telescope to reveal colours in nebulosity. One thing that might appeal to you is colour binaries. Try Cygnus which is full of them from Deneb back along the spine of the constellation to Alberio which is a bright colour binary.

REPLY: I favour a more direct route to T-Bar. Take a look at the circuitous route of the Washougal and how it empties into the Columbia. The Washougal was never a first choice. The Washougal became Plan-B after Merwin Lake failed, all based on some logic attached to the flight path at the time. (1972) And the mechanism added was "flood". But when you look at the Washougal its just too complicated a wash route to the Columbia, unless you use only the lower Washougal in which case you might as well back up and say "it was Lacamas". And if you say that you might as well say ' well he walked down H-205 to the Columbia'. If you define the DZ as being near Orchards, now you have a more direct route to the Columbia - maybe! At least Orchards is just north of the Columbia. And in fact the Orchards area is just north of Portland IAP where the whole saga started. You could claim that having failed his first choice of bail (Seattle) he waited to get back to where the crime started (Portland). Then somehow the money gets to the Columbia and sits, then washed down after '74 to settle at T-Bar. Everything depends on the flight. If that can connect Toutle (placard) and T-Bar (money) then you have a viable theory which connects to factual evidence. The Washougal connects to nothing except speculation as I see this. Here's a photo of the Washougal drainage to Columbia. A very convoluted path with many hurdles becoife money can even get to the Columbia to be washed anywhere.

No. A friend of mine shot the photo. The photo is of the central region of Scorpius near the star Antares, a stellar nursery. The Messier number is M4 on any star map.

One more map. This map gives a sense of scale to the proposition that money washed down from the Washougal which winds through a very long circuitous path, then finally all the way west in the Columbia, and up to Tina Bar. Or, from the LaCamas area to Tina Bar. The map also gives some perspective to low lying flood zones which border the Columbia all the way between the Washougal to Tina Bar, areas which the money coming from Washougal escaped? Keep in mind the previous discussions about float time by SafeCracking (Ap 1 - 08 etc) This map is on a 1 mile scale (scale shown right of centre near the bottom). I apologise for the poor quality of the map - it was cropped and reduced from a larger FITS map so quality suffered. _ _ ... ... _ _

Ok Jo. Thanks for the advice. I actually have read most of the other thread, but a few things escaped me so Ive back tracked. I think Ive read about everything there is to read, and a few things more, but some things always escape... and I continually re-read. I have also talked to a number of people who have never been on any forum and never will. This case is larger than any single person. Here's a little something just for you - Happy Fourth. George

reply: I found a wikimap of tina bar using the waymark co'ords, posted by you in a discussion with Safecracking earlier. I will attach this photo again if you dont mind - - its a good photo. I think prior to the money find in 1980 it was called Tina Bar, but then the Seattle PI published their map and labeled the site "Tena's Bar" in another location, and that started the confusion. My attempts to speak to the SPI about this have never been answered. I have to believe the waymark site is correct. It identifies Tina Bar as being 91/2 miles NW of Vancouver. The PI map shows T Bar between Vancouver and the Washougal River. Its only a guess but at the time the PI published their map the FBI stance was that the money had come from the Washougal area, so it may have been that fact alone that had the PI place Tina Bar near the Washougal. Or maybe there is a Tena Bar near the Washougal and a Tina Bar NW of Vancouver? Wouldnt that be a coincidence. In any event I post the photos again here - Georger

--------------------------- Thanks 196. I would like to know the history of Tina/Tena Bar if someone can give a short synopsis? I will go back and poke around at threads still here ... Ive run out of material to post so people can breath a sigh of relief - Snowmman and Sluggo and Ckret will be back soon and life will go on . . . Thanks, George

REPLY: This what? What (which) other thread? Has it got a name?

REPLY TO THE GUY WHO SAYS ITS SPELLED WRONG: Is it Tena or Tina. I dont know. The Seattle PI says "Tena". The sign on the gate (attached) says TINA. See the attached and you decide. Its beyond me! What book!? Im not writing a book. (That's Sluggo's territory) Maybe we should change the name to TYNA to keep ever'one happy and entertained. Are you not being entertained? Georger Maximus Meures

I had never seen the map used by Seattle Post Intelligencer - YOU are RIGHT - we are in trouble with info like that. BUT, that has been the problem with this case from get go - poor information or no information at all. Now we got people like you and Carr and Snowmman and Safecrack who are doing a pretty good job. I spoke with a young man tonight who was raised on that river - I called him because the location of Tena's bar just didn't mean anything to me...but for the sake of the story I wanted to be sure it was right. YOU are right - it is at the upper end of the Vancouver Lake. He said if you look at a map with an island there - it is across from that island, BUT that island was NOT there in 1971. I haven't tried this, but I remember something about that island being stated before. Safecrack posted many photos and maps on the other forum before it go locked down - I think it was in those maps. He had some pretty good maps - yours maybe more of the same. When the technical stuff gets over my head I am best to just shut up and observe. Tena's bar never really meant much to me other than it was a place the TV crew took me to and they wanted me to move the sand around like I was looking for Coopers Money. REPLY: Thank you Jo. I also have cousins in Vancouver who confirmed Tina Bar. But they had to ask others and then call me back. I have no explanation for the PI map but doubt it matters now. Jo, on these technical matters I post, I know its a bit much. I am a down to Earth person so when I post some of these things I just know some arent going to like it. It isnt exactly entertainment and I know that. So please, dont ever think Im trying to be some kind of smartass ... I assure you I'm not. I always criticise people here who go off on some technical tangent at board meetings etc, where I know many will not grasp what is being said. Things have to be brought down to a common sense level, and usually can be if the effort is put forth. I think Ckret is good at that. Jo, I wont complicate this. Thanks for your understanding ... take care. George.

Here are a few more charts which deal with the Vancouver watershed, and related hi water matters as could relate to money found at Tina Bar. The charts and maps are self explanatory so I wont waste time detailing them. This much I have learned: Hi water time at T Bar is generally late in Spring thaw (see graph attached). The amount of flooding at any given time at T-Bar is a function of the general flooding in any given year against the backdrop of a wide flood basin established many years ago, eg. on the Portland side of The Columbia and then continuing on the Vancouver side which encompasses the area of Vancouver Lake up to and including the whole area of Tina Bar and beyond. (See flood basin maps attached). I searched for water table charts for '74-80 in the Vancouver-Portland basin but could find only USGS charts which one must call forth and are proprietary. Maybe someone else can get those. No two years are the same on this location, floodwise. Flow characteristics would accordingly change. Maps showing the Vancouver watershed show tributaries which might have brought money into the Columbia (if that was the mode of conveyance) to later deposit $$$ at Tina Bar. (see watershed charts attached). A geological map is provided. This concerns the major geological regions from which drainage falls to the Columbia. (Not all silts are alike!) It appears Tina Bar and the Washougal, for example, rest in different geological regions. This struck me as interesting. (See geological regional map). Lastly, the condition of the money at Tina Bar as been of interest as a clue to its history. A person I spoke with today however points out that silts moved by the Columbia have a high "basalt" content. Basalts can be very abrassive when moved under pressure. This fact might have bearing on the money's history.