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Everything posted by georger
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QuoteSluggo: I thought there was some discussion in the transcripts of changing the flap/wheel configuration after Cooper had jumped. (which would be a prediction) Do we know that the flap/wheel configuration was consistent thru the flight, so that the fuel burns mentioned were consistent thru the flight? I don't think we do? REPLY: There was this very discussion. It was concluded flight configs changed or as Sluggo pointed out, they would have burned out before reaching Reno. If you recall I finally posted to say: "but they did land at Reno nonstop". So obviously flight configs changed. The transcript does document 11000 ft near the end, for example. This sets up just one more large contradiction. We know they changed flight configs. We know if nothing else they did change altitude to 11000 (TR10/11 say so). And at the same time they supposedly dont know Cooper is gone? Can't have it both ways. They knew Coopoeras gone and there had been plenty of discussion about it with NWA. They altered configs and went on to Reno rather than landing ("as soon as he bails") which ahd been their earlier instruction. Now, just looking at Sluggo's tic map Sluggo also issued a velocity breakdown for each leg between tics. I repost that below. Relating to fuel consumption, how did 305 travel at 202.8 kts (19:57-58) then at 165 knots (58-59), and 243.6 at (20:01-02) then at 182.4 (02-03). I dont understand these large variations in air speed spearated by only 60 seconds each. Maybe that has something to do with fuel consumption? I must not understand Sluggo's chart. Thanks.
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Well there is the argument that has been made by several old school jumpers here that he took the bail out rig because it is reliable. That is what that type of rig is for. He didn’t need performance he needed it to work and get him down alive. REPLY: Exactly. The only "performance" that matters was the "performance" Cooper thought he himself sure of. Given his age we can speculate about where he got that knowledge or skills. In addition, his remark that he 'didnt need any instruction sheet' doesnt mean he didnt pick up the sheet and read it after the stewardess was out of sight. But his remark was for affect. Under the conditions most people would take a look at the sheet just to be sure.
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I agree with you and I agree with Sluggo, given the parameter's Cooper set in place, V 23 was the most obvious. In fact they would have had to work to make the other V's fit. Now we have to determine why Cooper would have not declared a flight path. What would he gain by assuming, given the parameters he gave, they would take V 23. It may seem like a well beaten horse but it is important because it clears the way in making a strong statement about who Cooper might have been as a person. REPLY: all he has to do to guarantee V23 as I see it, is say Im parachuting and BELOW 10000 FEET WHICH WAS HIS ORIGINAL REQUEST. It's in the transcript clear as day. Whether Cooper said "BELOW" or not is irrelevant. This is what Scott told SEA and this is what SEA heard and acted on in reviewing routes. They chose a route with the lowest elevation outside of taking the plane out along the coatline, which would have cost more fuel. I may be missing something but it seems to me there were only two options, coastal vs. V23. Coastal equaled greater fuel consumption so they went V23 and V23 offers the option of finding Cooper after he bails. (I wonder what Cooper would have said had they told him: "we are going a coastal route to let you bail over water!". You know he would have nixed that) I am beginning to believe there is something about V23 that only you and Sluggo know about, that makes V23 important, after you previously said Cooper intended to bail near Seattle. It probably has something todo with a new money find or something!
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As a retired commercial pilot, aviation professional and skydiver for more than 30 years, I have to jump on the Sluggo Wagon regarding the V23 debate. If DBC was on his game as much as I suspect, his flight restrictions set the stage for V23 to be the most likely choice. Perhaps he had two DZ's prepared, in case the flight took the coastal route. REPLY: Sluggo and apparently you think DBC made demands forcing V23. This ignores a large amount of the transcript where routes were explored openly for a long period of time before V23 was chosen. There werent that many choices given 'parachuting' and 'Mexico' and 'BELOW 10000 feet" which was Cooper's original request. Maybe Cooper knew this, maybe he did not. If Ckret is right and Cooper actually wanted to leave right after liftoff at Seattle, then V23 is irrelevant.
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I beg to differ, damnit! Its the Celtics that hold the planet together. Former Lakers Fan.
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What is the average float time of a dead cat? It depends, is it a North American or European cat? Important note - 20 lbs of cash is about the same weight as a coconut. I was going to say: depends on the ph of the water and the grin on the cat.
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QuoteMy theory involves the briefcase that he brought on. Cooper was nervous and brought his neighbors cat to relax and comfort him. In fact, he had Schrodingers Cat. The cat may have survived the opening shock or not. The briefcase holding the cat may have broken loose and the cat fell to its death inside, or perhaps lived. Of course, it is only a theory because no one observed the cat. It may actually be extraneous and implausible. REPLY: I should have taken this seriously, but didnt at the time and I apologise for that. Your point is very well taken. The central issue at stake you point out is Uncertainty. Schroedinger's example was a direct response to the issue of uncertainty inherent at the time in the world of physics, following a paper where Einstein discussed the uncertainties involved in observing and measuring subatomic particles. (The Einstein-Poldosky-Rosen Effect.) At the time historically, there was a 1 in 2.35x10(19) chance (theoretically) of targeting an electron within the normal field of a hydrogen nucleus. That number was brand new and had never been calculated before and it staggered people trying to imagine how such a small probability could exist while Nature and the world continued to exist, and if there might be something fundamentally wrong with physics itself! (The Einstein- Poldosky-Rosen Effect, ie superpositioning of elementary particles) The Schroedinger's Paradox turned out not real. Ironically, the Schroedinger model of the atom is still used in many classrooms today. It is long out of date. The uncertainties implicit in the Cooper case are huge orders of magnitude less than those involved in quantum physics, which Schroedinger and others were dealing with at the time, and for different reasons. The whole platform for uncertainty is different between the two examples. But, Iam glad you brought this up because this puts the whole Cooper matter in perspective, compared to other things in our world. I hope you find this a satisfactory answer. George (physicist, Eastern Iowa Observatory and Learning Center) Here is one of my pet projects: http://www.cedar-astronomers.org/paldows.htm
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Need a favour. I need to know the approximate area within the flight path V23 from SEA to PDX. I am assuming 8 miles wide path (4 miles each side of the center line V23). I am assuming 145 miles distance from SEA to PDX. Can someone please confirm these numbers. (Using the above numbers total area would be 1160 sq mile area.) Thanks -
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QuoteCkret, On page 185 of the transcripts [Re-recording Reel #5, 6:59 PM to 7:41 PM PST] at the bottom of the page we have: (P) About the (unitel) I gave to you a little while ago it is a possibility that this is the same thing that was used in {A space that didn’t copy is here} There is no To Page 186 (P) confirmation on it. (GC) I see Do you have a better copy that shows the missing type? I am assuming this is in reference to the statement made by the pilot at the bottom of page 184, when they were discussing Cooper’s knowledge of aircraft. It seems to be the only thing that fits. Possibly a reference to experience dropping loads (NO….! don’t EVEN go there!) in SE Asia. (Notice I didn’t say; “Viet Nam”) It may also be a reference to techniques used in an earlier hijacking, and if Cooper is the same guy. Especially when P says: "it is a possibility that this is the same thing that was used in (unintel). " Whatever it is, this is just one of many examples that have me convinced these transcripts are censored. Too many vital words and phrases just happen to vanish as (unintel). In this case it could be a reference to a prior hijacking still an active case. George (janitor)
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You are sooo “unbelievably” kind. I’ll do that… I’ll relax. Now, what was it you do (for a living) again. Or, have you never stated your profession? Sluggo_Monster My God you are rude!
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I have wondered the same about yours.
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A few weeks ago, I promised you I would leave the “bad-guy-catching” technology up to you, and I would stick with what I know. So, I will take what you have said under advisement. But, in my attempt to be brief, and not generate a fire-storm of criticism on this forum before I get all the facts, I was unable to make you understand what I was saying. (Particularly in regard to the “Illusionist Analogy”.) So, I will stop trying to make you understand (for now) and continue the work that I believe will pay off. (Think ostrich if you must!)
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Suffocation - unless he jumped with his face wrapped in plastic, no. Unconsciousness - unless he had a medical condition, no. Firstly (refer a post a few days ago), if he jumped from 10K he didn't even have 60 seconds before he hit the ground. Second, as you fall you are falling into more oxygen-rich air - plenty of cases of skydivers who leave an aircraft with hypoxia and 'come to their senses' as they fall. "Air pressure on his face" just doesn't come into the equation - go jump out a plane (or even just into your nearest wind tunnel) and see! But a hard pull + odd set up + money bag flapping around + 50 seconds maximum time to reach a survivable pull altitude... tells me either this guy was an experienced jumper, or he bounced. I was very interested in the tidbit that he got offered instructions and turned them down. Why would a novice do that? Thanks, very much. Cossey may have included instructions just to cover himself legally. (Ive always read Cossey is careful like that) Is it true paratroopers in WWII used to tie msc stuff around their wastes, in front? Rain gear etc? Maybe Cooper was acting out of this experience, or he had seen it in the movies? George
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and let me remind you the Cat can only exist at finite quantum levels (r1...rn) at some time (t1 ... tn) and it is absolutely required that he be there at some point in time, or the whole universe collapses back into a quantum soup at ~10E10-32 seconds. That was tested, clear back in the 40's, or we would all be speaking Japanese or Russian today! "The insubstantial becomes concrete. Nature itself may decide when that happens" (Robt Oppenheimer)
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Ckret, Okay, I’ll try to state my position without a lot of detail. First, a disclaimer… I have not yet proven anything (to my satisfaction), I have done a lot of leg work and I have found enough supporting information to make me feel it was worth my while to dig deeper. Here is the main thesis: Cooper gave the flight crew a set of instructions, That set of instructions defined certain parameters, altitude, airspeed, etc. Much like a magician (or more properly an illusionist) uses “misdirection” (asking for situation A, which sets up situation B, such that the observer thinks situation B was his own idea), Cooper used flight parameters to dictate that the flight would use Victor-23 as the flight path. Victor-23 has two distinctive turns that could be measured very well with even the cheapest of compasses. This allowed Cooper to locate and jump at (or soon after) the BTG VOR. The parameters that I have been investigating are such things as: His first stated destination was Mexico (or possibly Mexico City), whether it was Mexico City specifically, or just Mexico is immaterial because both are EAST (and south) of Seattle. (There is no point in Mexico that is west of Seattle). He would have accepted Phoenix, AZ (East and South) and he accepted Reno, NV (again, east and south). He would not accept San Francisco, Ca. He was going to jump, he wasn’t accepting a destination, he was accepting a ROUTE. The MOCAs* and OROCAs* for points in a direct line to Reno, Phoenix or any point in Mexico are too high for 10,000 ft. flight. Any westerly routes (Like V-27) just added more stops and more fuel burn. I hope to prove V-23 was the only option. I have much documentation. And, thanks to your high-res Seattle Sectional, I have a complete list of 1971 Victor Airways out of Seattle. I have a few more days worth of work to do. When I’m finished, I will make a presentation to you. Or, I will have discovered I was wrong, in which case, I’ll go on to something else. Thanks, Sluggo_Monster *MOCA =- Minimum Obstruction Clearance Altitude *OROCA = Off Route Obstruction Clearance Altitude Gottcha Sluggo but please address this in your theory. There is generally consistency in action within a given act. If a subject rob's a bank, he will use the same demand note or same words, dress in the same manner, hit the same type of branch, many times the same bank, over and over until caught. In Coopers case there is consistency in his actions on the night, Ordered chutes, left what kind up to the provider. Ordered money, left the denomination up to the provider. Ordered the direction of travel (south), but left the path up to the provider. Each of these demands was a vital part of whether he would be able to make a safe and successful escape, yet he left it up to the provider. His level of planning and execution set him up to successfully initiate the crime but he is consistent with a lack of planning the escape. This tells me that Cooper thought out the crime but didn't have the actual experience of jumping to realistically plan the escape. For me to buy into Cooper was planning an illusion you will have to prove purpose. Why do it, what benifit would it have for Cooper to risk the flight crew taking a route he didn't think was possible. Also, you have to reconcile the chutes and money with the route as like actions. In other words, the whole of the escape plan was to create an illusion of who Cooper was. ____________________________________________ At most, Cooper was deluded. He was over powered by the events 'he himself' set into motion with his bomb. There are a million examples of this in the facts, or Cooper would have walked off the plane at Seattle sipping a martini with 200,000 tucked under his arm into a waiting limo with Scott and Tina and the FBI etc waving and cheering: "Have a good trip DB! See you at the Oscars". Sluggo is stuck on "performance enhancement" which is a figment and requires a total revision of the facts of this case. Sluggo will never move off this position (like Jo) until forced to. I have said this 1000 times so I will say it again. We need the NWA-305 flight comms, if they exist. Cooper was NOT a GUEST on Flight 305! Cooper was NOT in sole control of events or even the most crucial events of that day. Cooper set events into motion larger than any single person - or they all would all have been potentially dead on that day including Cooper. These are the core facts of this case which contain this whole case, Cooper included. Dan Cooper was NOT Babe Ruth!
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QuoteSince everyone is into oxygen today, here’s the federal regulation that would have kept flight 305 below 12,500 feet as long as they remained unpressurized, if it was in effect then. I imagine it was, but I just don’t know. REPLY: One of the Boeing engineers who worked on the Cooper Vane told me NWA had its own rule, which was 12000 feet.
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No regulation . . . NONE . . . matters in an emergency. Yes, a hijacking qualifies as an emergency even if the pilot doesn't officially declare it. ATC can declare for the pilot. 1000% correct and everyone says so, quote: "NO RESTRICTIONS", SAID OVER AND OVER NAD OVER....
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In a 727, the Oxygen Masks deploy and O-2 flow starts at a cabin pressure equivalent to 14,000 ft. Didn't you read my post from this morning? Sluggo I'm confused now. I thought we were told they might have ascended above 10,000 ft to try to get Cooper woozy. The transcripts reports them saying 15,000 ft at one point? We thought that was a typo, right? But did we hear that they went to 12,000? What's the real max altitude they went to? Is it on the flight recorder? at 7:48 the comment is made: "... the cabin is better if you guys have massks on ..." 8:01 - 15000 mentioned but, you explained away all of this previously. at 7:48 the strange comment s mde:
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We could all meet in Fulton TN. Chris Christopherson's relatives still make BQ there. I could make a call! Snowmman is paying for it!!
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What does O2 have to do with anything? Cooper wasn't comet!
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Good call CKRET. If youve got a pile of junk over your head......cutaway. I would have done it 200000 pages ago!
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At the very least Cossey would have known no novice would pass his "open this parachute" test! Maybe the instruction sheet was to convince Cooper to give up.
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Yes! It certainly does make sense. It is brilliant, actually. I have 2000 hours flying jumpers with about 1000 hours flying for a heavily first jump oriented DZ on the Eastern Shore of Maryland known as Pelicanland. I was always expecting a student to freak-out and grab onto me screaming, "I'm not leaving this airplane!" As I've written, I put a 28 into an NB-6 because I didn't want a potentially hard landing under a 26. The more difficult hard pull was a bonus for protecting me from the nutty first time grabbers. I would guess that Cossy or the pilot for whom he packed the rig would want the larger, easier landing canopy for the same reason I would. His idea for the rip cord under the right arm is brilliant! Only under the left arm would be better than under the right. Second reason for the ripcord postion as described under the right arm allows for the best possible body position when diving out the door. Your right hand can easily grab the handle and push out, Superman style with the right thumb hooked inside the handle, as the pilot jumps out. My hat's off to Cossey. I wish I had thought of it. OK...what's next? Brilliant for a pro but a death trap for a non pro?
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On pull motions alone he likely never got the chute open but I am betting with the bag flopping around (f=ma) it knocked him silly or was such a distraction, it distracts him or physicallty prevents him from getting chute open. ? Is it possible he suffocated mid air or lost consciousness within 60 seconds due to inability to breathe due to air pressure on his face if his chute failed to open? (Combined stresses of low oxygen and fear can also cause filbrilation in less than one minute.)
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Sounding more and more like he had to be experienced to survive, especially when you add in a lose bag of money.