georger

Im assuming that, or something close to that. Thanks...

can you do a jpeg or gif or bmp ???

I take everything you guys with first hand knowledge say, as near gospel. Then tell me this. He meets the air stream once he's out of the vacuum behind the plane. Then what forces does he encounter? That is where I think I have read things might fall apart for him. Any help appreciated - Playing devil's advocate here, but anyone who hasn't jumped doesn't seem to understand how difficult it is to just "fall out" of a plane. The transcript also states "ability to jump out of a 707 with a parachute on is nil" , which it clearly wasn't (I assume they meant 727 not 707?) ... just because opinions are expressed in the transcript doesn't make them fact! In any case there are enough guys who have had experience jumping out of jets, they have stated that the exits are quite wild, but this is not the same as being "sucked out".

_______________________________________ They are two kinds of events, physically, in terms of the aircraft itself. A pilot is going to know the difference between an oscillation and a bump, but, these are two pilots, a flight engineer, so its more than one witness all with great technical expertise.

The transcript clearly states that Cooper requested to fly with gear down and flaps at 15 deg. (and, btw, that after underway all lights to be turned out in aircraft - which sounds like someone familiar with a n night jump?) ____________________________________________ yes it does but a jump into what, where if he plans to escape with his hide on? He trades technical knowledge for a possible suicide?

I will make a quick reply & hopfully more later ... Go to the end of 6:21/18:21 which is the passage everyone cites giving credit to Cooper for 15* flaps and other technical knowledge. It starts with Scott saying: "We have instructions from the Individual." as if what follows are explicit instructions from Cooper. Next senetence begins: "He wants . . ." and the technical list follows. Next comes strong debate about these technical requests at the of which Scott says: "Roger, will talk to him again". Every technical discussion through this period ends with Scott saying: "will talk to him again". There even comes a point in these technical discussions where somebody says 'Where id he get that!?' and Scott replies something like, 'well maybe he's got the manual back there ... dont know what he has back there', alluding directly to Cooper's technical requests and some assumed technical expertise on Cooper's part, but, , , these technical debates come to nothing. The settings required to accomplish a bailout are few and clear, whether Scott or Cooper or SEADX knew them. The 727 had 3 flap options (discussed at length in other groups): 5, 15, and 25 degrees, if I am correct. 15 degrees goes automatically with 160-170 kts and gear down and BELOW 10,000ft which was Cooper's original request. Regardless of who requested 15 degrees, 15 degrees is the only option based on the other flight parameters. All Cooper had to do was request configs for a bailout - the rest follows. (This has been discussed at length in other forums). 6:21 and Scott's remarks does make it sound like Cooper had technical knowledge. 6:21 is the Genesis of Cooper's Urban Legend - the diabolical genius who got away with it. So let's assume he has technical expertise. Does this help him get off the ground at SEADX in the fifteen minute turn around he originally expected? No, that becomes almost 2 hours! Does it lift the clouds for a bailout? Does it change getting the air stairs out as he wanted? And why if he has important technical demands is he making them through a third party, Mucklow? Why isnt this technical genius working the futures market or the gold market vs hijacking an airplane? It reads: "will talk to him again".

Snowmman, what does the RED X denote on your last Quinn's Cove jpeg? Those are VG photos. Tnx. Im back, coming up to speed, but we have massive flooding here, more storms on the way, its a mess. Im OK, all I know are OK, so... what's the X. ??

Okay georger… let’s get one thing straight… here… and now, damn it! Flattery will get you everywhere!

True, its the difference between direct flow vs indirect flow. At the back of the aircraft you arent experiencing the direct flow through the air stream. At the front and sides you are. This is why at the tail they call it a "slip stream"? if I am correct, because you are out of the direct air flow. But I have been told by a Boeing engineer (who actually worked on the Cooper Vane) and by oher people that 305 was flying "dirty' meaning significant turbulence for anyone bailing at the back. As a technical point, 305 opened it rear door before 10,000 feet and was unpressurised, and Scott still reported the pressure difference (due mainly to the Bernoulli affect). They did discuss tying Tina down for her safety, because it was her who Cooper wanted to open the door (its in the transcript).

As stated in numerous posts before, the aircraft was not pressurized...Therefore, there would be no 'rushing out of air' from the plane when the rear door was cracked open. Also, stated before, there is no turbulence at the back of the plane with the door open. Or at least, very little that would perhaps remove a paper placard poorly affixed to the open door. ltdiver __________________________________________ Yes, the plane was not pressurised for altitude, but there is a pressure difference between inside vs outside due to air flow around the aircraft. Hi velocity air outside vs. no-velocity air inside equals a pressure difference, ie. the Bernoulli affect. True, the pressure difference is least at the tail (underside) of the aircraft but the minute you open the rear door, air from the inside is drawn out and pressure equalises. Then, you have a more steady state. This is basic physics.

and one more thing: I ADMIRE THE HECK OUT OF SLUGGO. I can say this very easily. His website is magnificent and a work of art. I have even sent people there. When I first saw his website my jaw dropped. If that guy was anywhere near I would take him out to dinner, or give him a job, or something. He probably doesn't need a job. Maybe he could give us all jobs! I don't know but I admire the heck out of Sluggo, and I get a kick out of him too. So your words are well taken, Snowmman. George.

Quotehey georger, I don't understand the new timeline either. I do, at least I think I do, and when it arrives I think everyone is going to be very happy if not smiling. While I am very serious I also am trying to have some fun with this, not as an older smartass, but as a grain of sand on the beach of this whole thing and I think a few conclusions are beginning to take form after a lot of hard work on everyone's part and what can be learned is being learned. George

Or, try this as an experiment . . . Take a piece of plywood, 1 foot x 1 foot square and attach it to the lower part of the rear bumper to a car with gaffer's tape so that one edge is hinged and the rest is allowed to flop in the breeze. Drive the car down the street at various speeds and either from the side of the road or a following car watch the behavior of the piece. My prediction is that no matter how fast you go above say, 10 mph, it will always flap in the wind. It's never going to just sit there and hold still. That's your oscillation right there; just the staircase flopping in the breeze. DB Cooper doesn't have to be anywhere near it from stair deployment to the moment he exits. He doesn't have to have one foot resting on it while he gets all misty-eyed about his future and he doesn't have to keep opening it to toss crap out. It's going to flop around all by itself. As for your "wind rush", there really isn't one until you get out. Oh sure there is a small amount of turbulence flopping bits and whatnot around right at the door, but you can easily stand in the tail gate of a 727 without hardly noticing it at all. The wind, for the most part, is going past the plane, not into it. I will say more, I hope ok. Everything in motion has a natural frequency depending on the situation of course. The key is motion. (from atoms to aircraft to posters sitting chairs typing). The stairs are attached to the pane so their motion in the airflow has a 'moment', develops a natural frequency of movement. A hole in an object in motion causes a Bernoulli effect. So the minute the back door was cracked on the plane in motion, air was sucked out (like a car window only more so.). Cooper knew this. That is very likely why he wanted Mucklow to be the one to open the door. (Its in the transcript) Scott asked if she should be tied down and the answer was yes. Once air rushes out of the plane it probably equalised, unless some change in altitude. But I have always wondered how far into the plane turbulence was a factor. You skydivers would know something about this -

Exactly. (A Feynman experiment) George

Sluggo. Forgive me for saying this but I thought it was decided 305 and no 727 operated by NWA had TTY capability. So who is doing the typing? George

Resolution also a product of weather conditions in those days. A fanciful sidenote Ive always wondered about is if any HAMs or SWL's happened to catch any of the communications. The period around Thanksgiving used to be rather active during those years, on the ham bands. Ive never seen anything in print if someone did report hearing something - - - George

Snowmman, forgive my ignorance, but unless I am dreaming this, somewhere in these pages (previous locked Thread) there is an extensive discussion about what communications 305 had, or did not have. Phone, radio, TTY, RTTY, etc. A number of people researched this. I thought the conclusion was, 305 had no RTTY, no TTY, no phone, and everything was done by radio transcribed into a TTY machine (or something) on the other end. Maybe I'm totally wrong but this discussion did take place here previously. It was out of that discussion that the issue of time stamp accuracies developed. The previous debate was everyone thought Scott or Rataczak were sitting in the cockpit typing out their messages (which I also had assumed), until someone here did some actual research and discovered NWA did not supply its 727's with RTTY or TTY capability in 1971. So that took the issue of TTY in 305 off the plate, a few here said 'oh!', and it was decided all flight comms coming from 305 were by radio. My reference to this matter was based on what I thought I read, not from Sluggo's website, but from discussion here.... George

georger, I am well aware that if I place information on my website, this forum, or any other forum, readers are free to use it as they see fit. They may use it to better understand the “facts of the case,” or use it to further their own agenda to prove a suspect was or was not Cooper. However, the above statement is a total distortion, in fact, it is pure fiction. Point by point: (Fact) Ckret never questioned me about the accuracy of time stamps on the transcript. (Fact) There never was an RTTY, they didn’t exist on NWA flights at that time. (Fact) The time stamp is a product of the TTY and as such in inalterable. (Fact) Based on the above statements the “who” is a machine. (Fact) The time stamps are set in stone with the exception “listen to type time” delays. (Fact) The FBI assigned to “listen to type time” delays to be 1 min or less. (Fact) 8:10 cannot become 8:13 – 8:20. 8: 10 can become 8:09 and only 8:09. (Fact) The crucial fact here is the oscillations were time-stamped but the pressure bump was not. The pressure bump time was estimated (by the flight crew) as 10 to 15 minutes after the 8:05 call to the back. That is the only time issue with any variability. (Fact) Times listed on the TTY log do not change the position data based on Air Force Radar. The TTY log is useful for identifying the times of communications. With few exceptions (where positions were reported by the crew) it does not identify positions of the aircraft. (Fact) The Radar data is accurate to 1 NM (plus or minus) along the azimuth of the scan. The angular resolution is unknown (to me). I would appreciate the courtesy of checking with me, before you attribute your conjecture to my data. What say you? Favorite-Nephew Ckret?

Changes in nitrite/nitrate levels caught my eye because of the mention of "salts" as possible purple staining cause. I was also thinking of potassium or sodium nitrate runoff from the Fazio farming operation as a source of "salts" _______________ Well that is testable. If particular nitrates say of Na or K are present in the money that would show very easily in any spectroscopic test - with the H-K lines at 3934/3968 and the D1-3 lines at 5876/96. Whatever is in the environment leaves its traces. Now if we would find some trait not in the immediate environment then that would be interesting and require explanation. That is how these tests work and their value. I know some are reading this thinking: "Oh No! Now we are going into CSI and tinfoil hats!". Not really. As a practical matter you don't do these tests unless it is warranted. ...

QuoteOnce you're comfortable with 5 years or so at Tena Bar, then you bump into the likelihood that somehow dredging displacement may have caused the final resting place at Tena Bar. '74 is a year quoted for dredging, although it's unclear if that was the only year from '71 thru '80 in that location. _________________ Five years or any amount of time is contingent on the amount of protection the money has. Refer back and look at the bills. Their condition speaks for itself. The currency is fragile material especially after decay sets in. Those bills sucked into a dredge wouldnt last 10 seconds. The currency found at Tina Bar looks to me as if it had a rather benign history. Maybe there was other money at some earlier date which would have shown signs of violence and it departed leaving the lucky remnant we find - without something conrete to suggest or prove this we cannot know. George

question: You make a reference to Scott slowing the plane down for Cooper. Sluggo and I have gone back and forth on that as myth vs fact. There are some quotes attributed to Bill R. that may be myth. Sluggo has pointed out increases in fuel consumption, noted in the transcripts, that could be attributed to increased flaps to slow the plane. Or not. Where did you get the information that Scott levelled and slowed the plane for Cooper? Or are you just saying at some point the plane was apparently in a state that favored Cooper, as opposed to an actual documented exchange between Cooper and Scoot or Bill R. that led to that state? Also: are you familar with the timeline Sluggo has assembled from all the info in the transcripts at http://n467us.com/NORJAK%20Time%20Table.htm Can you comment on that timeline and whether you agree/disagree about anything Sluggo has noted? You seem to have some specific thoughts on the 7:45 to 8:20 period. Can you expand on them? It's not clear there's a lot of evidence from the transcripts that one can infer stuff from..are we missing something? Any particular reason you're guessing 66 bundles? Sorry for drilling you..but welcome to the thread! _____________ No problem. I expect to be drilled. Scott brought the plane up to altitude, leveled, and slowed the plane to accomodate Cooper jumping. Scott was cooperating as per Donald Nyrop's order to cooperate and save the situation - give Cooper whatever he wants and the untranscripted part probably would read: "and get him the hell off my plane!" I read this from the transcript. I read this from your and Sluggo's (extremely good) analysis of the transcript. I believe Ckret has also spoken to this point. Scott & Rataczak both cooperated actively. Tina cooperated. That helped give Cooper confidence to jump (and they got him off the plane which may have been their best option!) Yes, I am aware of yours and Sluggo's analyses. I am up to speed (I think!). I am aware of the work Sluggo has been doing on a flight path and a timeline. All very excellent work. To my eye all of this work proves there is flexibility in the path and the timeline to put 305 over northern Portland at bailout, without violating any major tenent-in-fact of the case. I believe Sluggo & you (with Ckret's help) have been moving in this direction all along, in any event. The issue of accuracy vs. flexibility began with Ckret questioning Sluggo about how accurate any time stamp in the transcript could be, whether it was typed TTY or RTTY or radio exchanges, and who and when time values were being assigned to become a part the transcript. At length, you all came to the conclusion and agreed these time stamps are not set in stone but flexible, and probably early. 8:10 can easily become 8:13, 8:13~8:20, and so on. Changing the times changes the position of the plane along its flight path. Merwin Lake becomes northern Vancouver becomes northern suburbs of Portland south of the Columbia. (with the south wind aloft 10-20 kts you have all found in the WX records - applause to you guys!) I have arrived at some of this on my own but I am also feeding back to you what I believe is very credible work by you and Sluggo and others, not the least of who is Ckret himself who keeps pounding at all of you with THE BASIC FACTS! . I have already given my basic scenario for 7:45- 8:20, above. I realise it's simple, but forgive me for saying: 'Cooper is not a complex person'. The options for everyone from takeoff until say 8:30 are few and very simple, as directed by Coopers demands. Fly the plane south, do nothing to disturb the guy, get Tina up front, get the plane into a position for Cooper to bail, and watch him go - BYE BYE! (The threat of a bomb was making everyone behave. It would have become far more complicated had Cooper chickened out and stayed on board with his damned bomb.) I got to 66 bundles by looking at the roughly two bundles found at Tena Bar which equal ~$6000, dividing 6000 into 200,000 which equals 33 and multiplying that by 2 = 66. It's Rocket Science! No, that is how I arrived at 66 quickly. The actual number would I presume be the number of bundles actually banded by rubber at the bank and I WILL NOT waste Ckret's time asking that precise number because it is statistically irrelevant so far as a field distrubution probability is concerned, from the stand- point of the whole Columbia basin and the odds of finding any single bundle in that maze through which a single channel flows (at Vancouver). There trully is a point at which 'mathematical' certainty in this case is beside the point, and irrelevant. We only have a few fixed data points with which to establish certainties. (One data point is the placard at Toutle Lake, seldom discussed). Im not trying to fudge the issue of flight path or timeline. You and Sluggo have already developed it and all I can say is, metaphorically: "you're right on the money in the Columbia!". Thanks...

All good thoughts. I will revise my estimate to 5 years at one site. The kinds of deterioration shown in these bills indicates a uniform consistency of similar deterioration which suggests one location for an extended period of time. Your idea of the whole bag having been at the bar, depositing a few bundles which then get fixed in sediment, then the bag moving on with whatever was in it, could have occurred. That has an appeal logically but there is apparently no "evidence" to decide. The significant fact is: that money appears at Tena Bar at all. That seperates this from the kind of assertion: "well money could have landed in Bejing via ...". The money at the bar has a direct link to Cooper and 305. Even if the whole bag has been at Tena I still opt for the shallow water flow scenario because the Columbia is a high volume swift current situation especially during flood. Currents away from the shoreline would take the bag at a fast rate down stream. The money must get to the shoreline and stay there, somehow. And the money is in remarkable condition which suggests protection of some kind during its history. I do not think a long term constant movement scenario would leave the money in the condition it is in. *I see this whole case as obeying the law of averages consistent with every 'fact' and supposition based in fact, Ckret has proposed. Cooper was an average guy in over his head. Partial learning but dangerous because of his reach. 305 left Seatac and Cooper wanted to bail quickly but could not and did not because the stair dilemma intervened. By ~8:10-8:20 Scott has leveled and slowed the plane to ~160 kts to accomodate Cooper (Scott and NWA want Cooper out!). The sky glow of Vancouver appears breaking the darkness with the skyglow of Portland coming up, Cooper has an idea where he is with the Columbia basin below, and he bails. Whatever parachuting scenario developed then completes the story with some money left in the Columbia basin, which then is found. You say 100 parcels of money. I was thinking more like 66. Whatever the number statistics and probability now come into play. Why? Because any money was found at all. The probability of any single spot of money being found in the whole Columbia basin is exceedingly small. That any money was found suggests 'distribution'. The probability is simply higher if 100 or 66 or even 33 spots of money are distributed than if only 1 is sent lose into the whole basin. So having found one spot of money we can safely assume a larger distribution by some means. Again, the mere fact of any money being found almost requires more money having been present and distributed at some time. If we had the bag we could almost assume something drastic happened to seperate the money from Cooper, from his point of view. He was giddy at receiving the money and would not have been happy losing it. This tells us nothing of whether he lived or died. I will leave it at that. I have calls out to several experts. Hopfully one will come back to me.

Let me make a few calls here and I will get back. My rough estimate is at minimum 3 years which would place those bills on the bar in 1977. My actual thought is, the whole bag or a part of the bag with money was at Tena Bar and eroded from there leaving the remnant found in 1980. The problem with that theory is no part of the bag or even threads from the bag were found along with the money, so far as I know. It is either that or the stacks of bills as a semi cemented block were "rolled up" on Tena Bar by the current because it hard to conceive of this 'wad' of wet currency floating in any fashion. In deep water a wet wad would sink (like a stone). So if it was a wad and it rolled by action of current then it could only have rolled across shallow terrain from up stream. It could not have rolled too far or the wad would have been destroyed. The probability of that wad (or any block of money) having rolled all the way from the Washougal is zero. So, the distance for rolling by action of current is relatively short for any given block of bills, once seperated from the bag. And it must be a rolling action vs flotation. Also: when I said salts I was referring to mineral salts as opposed to HCl as in sea water. (I knew that would come up the minute I said it). I agree with Ckret. I believe the money is crucial. The money "is the evidence", as it were (literally). I dont believe it is any accident the money was found along the Columbia and I do not believe it washed down via the Washougal or elsewhere. I think the fact of money anywhere at the Columbia River is a direct link to Cooper's bailout. I have two rather solid pieces of evidence for believing this. The first has to do with the mathematical probability of ever finding any of the Cooper money at any specific location. And secondly, Cooper's general behavior and the general flow of events as they happened aboard 305 after the takeoff from Seatac. I believe these two scenarios outlined above place a high probability of money or other evidence of Cooper showing up near this general area of the Columbia. I would be happy to explain this if you want me to. In general I agree very closely with Ckret's assessment of Cooper as an individual, and the outline of specific events which transpired on 305 from say 7:45 through to 8:20, thereabouts. Let me make a few calls to gett corroboration about decay of US currency and I will check back later. Thanks again.

I've been curious about purple staining. I know that iodine tests are used to detect high starch levels in counterfeit bills. The discolored Ingram bills seem to have purple staining. I was wondering if there's any database on what causes different types of staining to the flax/cotton US bills. Try zooming in on these. Some have the holes which I assumed were insect. You can zoom in a lot with these and maintain resolution. Yes. I will give what expertise I have. The true experts would be in the Treasury Dept or in the numismatic community, or Soetheby's, etc. Paper money is very specific in paper, dies, and techniques, aging, etc. while also following the general rules of entropy. These are good images. This is wet money vs dry money decomposition. I see no sign of the money having been given a trace element or dye for tracing from its origin before Cooper. You see obvious (wet) oxydisation (yellow green), some signs of mildew (fungal) dark blackish-grey staining, and the violet suggests salt(s) contamination to my eye.Spectroscopy of the paper would answer all these questions. I know of no website with a data base which specifically addresses these issues. The holes are interesting but also the areas of degeneration peripheral on each bill. A palentologist might make some sense of this, but more probably there were larvae and other artifacts which came along with the stacks of bills and their flakes when found - which might confirm nothing more than the money was found where it was found, and had been in-situ for some time. One last thing, I see no signs of stress in the money. By this I mean a uniform deformation of the money (through the bills) as from a collision or severe impact which carries a stress or shock wave through an object (even a stack of paper or money or soft tissue). A number of years ago I saw a close photo of the stacks of money the Ingrams brought in, and then a photos of the money spread out, and I looked for any sign of stress or deformation in the bills (one to the others), and I could find none. I wondered about this vs. the options of the money have dropped from the sky and hit earth, or been with Cooper hitting earth or water at high velocity (eg. 32ft sec/sec). Now, a UV and possibly an IR scan of the money might find stress pattern? Its a possibility but of course all of the money is now distributed and far flung so no group analysis can be done. A few bills could still be examined, just to say you did it! Thank you Snowmman.

Thanks for the reply. Obviously the Seattle PI map of Tena Bar is wrong. I attached a few correct which show the outline of the river from Washougal out beyond Tena Bar. I will assume the area opposite Tena Bar was searched, for some distance up and down stream. Tena Bar sits on the right hand side of the river and even juts out (in dry periods) into a free flow field following the rather sharp right hand curve in the Columbia, prior to the channel involving Tena Bar. (Fast deeper water flows to the outside of an arc, Slow more shallow water to the inside of an arc). These remarks must be interpreted in the context of the Columbia being a wide river; during flood even wider. But the the principles of flow and deposition are the same. Debris in this situation would collect on the inside of the curve, then wash into the channel or even to the opposte side depending on velocity and volume of flow, then be conveyed downstream some conveying to the sides (shorelines), again depending on time of year and velocity and flow. The problem is "entry point" (above, from sides proximate to Tena Bar, or further upstream as in the Washougal hypothesis.) There may also be a fourth option, as I read the maps, which is the Vancouver Lake area upstream and not too far behind Tena Bar. If Tena Bar is affected by overflow from Vancouver Lake then that is a possible entry point, also. I seriously doubt Tena Bar was the original deposit site unless by accident money was dropped or buried further inland and it washed or eroded to that location, apparently after dredging operations. Only two things come to mind which might shed light on this matter. I notice what appear to be 'worm holes' in the money? I wonder if these holes penetrated the total stacks of bills or were just superficial. Different worms leave different (hole) tracks and patterns, which might help distinguish if money spent its time on land vs in the water. BTW, the outer areas of the bills show relative uniform wear in terms of erosion, rolling, and decay. Notice the curved wear patterns at both ends of each bill. This is consistent with uniform wear from burying vs one specific side of the bills being subject to directional wear (as bills sitting in stream wash). I tend to agree with the poster who points to the lack of staining from water - in fact colour in several bills is still very bright. But the wear patterns suggest a uniform state of decay consistent with burying, unless I am missing something. Lastly, had it been me, I would have had some of these bills analysed under a microscope simply on the chance some clue in pollen, bacteria, or mineral deposits might turn up. In addition, I would have taken samples of some of these bills (outisde of stack vs inside protected in stack) and run some mass spectroscopy on the samples, just to see what turned up. You never know. Clues like this might shed light on their history. That's enough for now - and thank you. I wish you all great luck in this quest. George