georger

I think there is sufficient evidence that the person making the tic-marks slipped 1 major tic-mark west for FOUR* plotted, hand-drawn tic-marks and then corrected the error. They left the tic-marks but plotted the line correctly. REPLY> Thanks for the reply Sluggo. I understand the dilemma. What interests me most is the orphans only exist at PDX and nowhere else on the map. The uncertainty is centered at PDX and Im not sure it is uncertainty. I also find it interesting that just south of Orchards at "RGREEN" they swing wide, west of PDX, as if to avoid it. And does this depart from where you would expect them to go, given their previous path along V23 - in some meaningful manner? Both FP tic sets avoid PDX to the west. Why? The only question is by how much. Why were they avoiding PDX and when was that decision made, or was this standard procedure? Had Cooper bailed or was he in the process of bailing (in the minds of the crew at the time) starting just south of Orchards/RGREEN ? Is that why they swung wide of PDX? Also, notice the two pencil dots (tic marks?) right in the middle of the Columbia River? (attached phto I have pulled this map apart in layers. I may post the layers later tonight. George

The above quote by Snowmman is a positive. The FBI has answered that for us already. Yes, they lost evidence - the cigarette butts. REPLY> That is not certain at all. Information earlier (in these and other pages) suggested the butts were returned to Reno after analysis and are still at Reno in storage, somewhere. Ckret spoke to this long ago. Your Duane was "not" DB Cooper, any more than I am the Pope! Georger

My post seeking rigger input on the rust stains didn't get any substantive responses. I see the stain outline of some sort of man made steel hardware, right angles, arcs, symmetry, but maybe its all in the eye of the beholder, faces on clouds. One thing I did notice is that the same image displayed on different computers/monitors gives VERY different appearances. I couldn't understand why nobody was seeing the circle/arc that was so plain to me until I displayed it on a friends computer and you could not see it at all, something to do with color settings? 377 REPLY> There isnt much one can say without an analysis. It looks like rust. What caused the rust is pure conjecture. Here are photos in natural colour. Features: There is an impression left of center approx 10mm wide which runs the full width of the bill (65mm). This impression looks like a depression and appears to have gentle curvature, but the depth of curvature is not uniform the full width of the bill. The shading or shadows in the depression reveal its nonuniformity as you follow the full length of the feature. At the top of the depression the paper is broken (with flap layed over). Going right from the depression along the bottom of the bill is a deep arc of rust approx 65mm long. At the right end, the rust line arcs upward suggesting the semi circular shape you see. Above this are sporadic rust marks. I understand the temptation to associate these features with something on an NB6 chute - photo of NB6 attached. To me these features have the shape of 2/3rds of a U-bolt, but this is only a subjective impression. Obviously, rust from metalic parts of an NB6 chute would have to be matched to the rust on this bill, if there even is a match. Without an analysis of the rust it is impossible to match it to a possible source. In addition, we do not know if there is similar rust on other bills - I have seen no other bills which show similar rust. If anyone has photos of bills showing rust, I certainly would like to see them. Georger

I think you are right Sluggo. Reminds me of nav track plotting errors I made back in the day before GPS. My post seeking rigger input on the rust stains didn't get any substantive responses. I see the stain outline of some sort of man made steel hardware, right angles, arcs, symmetry, but maybe its all in the eye of the beholder, faces on clouds. One thing I did notice is that the same image displayed on different computers/monitors gives VERY different appearances. I couldn't understand why nobody was seeing the circle/arc that was so plain to me until I displayed it on a friends computer and you could not see it at all, something to do with color settings? 377 REPLY> 377, your request for a 'substative' response was noted. It hasnt been forgotten. It has been hectic here.. I will be back tomorrow with more ... Thanks, George

I assume that's for me. Fire at will (or shoot anyone if you don't have their names). Thanks Sluggo. What do you make of the tic marks (+'s) on the left side of the FP at Portland? See attached - Georger

I do have a couple of questions about the FP if you're up for it? George

If he is so sure Gossett was Cooper why did he hound me for yrs? You make it sound like Greg hounded you, but I presume you mean Cook. The articles stated Cook has been after Cooper for 2 decades but only found out about Gossett in the past couple of years. You may think what you like (given your clear bias), and I'll accept Ckret's assertions that the facts don't add up, but from what I have seen of Cook he really has been one to try find a suspect to fit the man rather than try get the facts to fit his suspect. Ckret, can you confirm or otherwise receipt of Cook's /Gosset's fingerprints and whether they have been eliminated? (Sorry I think you may have answered this a while ago ...if so humble apologies) Oh, and personally, I feel much better about the fact that banks don't go opening up safety deposit boxes to everyone who claims to be a surviving relative of someone who may or may not have had anything deposited there. REPLY> How do Cooper 'detectives' scare up their candidates? I have yet to see one follow the ordinary protocols one would think appropriate to such matters, but maybe Im missing something. Did they review old passenger lists? Where and how do they find their 'Coopers'? It seems to me their criteria for selecting their targets is very lose.

REPLY> The real question is, 'where do these people come up with this stuff and why'? This ought to give you a sense of peace. Enjoy the view and be thankful you have an inherent dislike of crow, and have a good laugh! Georger

REPLY>> well if $5800 was found then there are 290 $20 bills in one form or another, discounting additional serial numbers the auction house has pieced together of.

QuoteGeorger, Snowmman, Sluggo, Can you post an enhanced jpg of the stained bill that best highlights the shapes of the rust stains? Is the false color one that Geroger posted optimal for showing shape? The symmetrical nature of some stains suggests contact with a manufactured steel item. I want to see if I can match it up with anything that might have been on an NB 6 rig. It is a super longshot but easy to do. Thanks. REPLY> Try these. See the pressure ridge... Good luck, let us know! George

In nature erosion and decay tends to round things off that are in an active flow, (wind or water) anything that sticks out (end corners or edge points) receives more friction or erosion in an active flow. It could also be biological bacterial, or a combination of the two.

QuoteGeorger, Snowmman, Sluggo, Can you post an enhanced jpg of the stained bill that best highlights the shapes of the rust stains? Is the false color one that Geroger posted optimal for showing shape? REPLY> Sorry I didnt answer that specifically. No, actually nothing I have posted here is "optimal" in the sense you mean. The best way to reveal features in a situation like this is to back lite or forward lite the specimen with specific wavelengths of lite. It is standard practice to use UV or other wavelengths to try and reveal background features, or enhance stains, surface prints, etc. There are standard forensic procedures that are used. In this case once the nature of stains is known then specific lighting can be used to enhance those features, photographically. All elments have inherent reflective and absorptive properties which lighting can enhance. Im sure you already knew this. Everything Ive done here is done on common home computer software - well common for me anyway. There are special techniques & softwares which can do better. In the context of Tina Bar it is likely there was diverse debris, from many sources. Tina Bar is after all a deposition sand bar. The presence of rust raises a question, potentially. Iron or steel objects do not as a rule float! On the other hand the one specimen we have is thee ONLY specimen showing rust. These are questions which have to be addressed. Im sure someone will address this issues as time goes. Georger

REPLY> 377, again, I dont see the patterns you see. Here's the bill, raw image - with closeup. Here is also a more subtle colorised version - the specific areas of rust are colorised. The colorised version shows a more random rust pattern, certainly not the outline of a D-ring or anything specific that I can see. But obviously something accounts for the rust. There is rust and there is "rust". Not all rusts are alike. If this is rust!? I am being more careful with my words. Georger

QuoteHi Jo. What makes people read this thread Jo? I doubt anyone does anyhow. Do people get emotional about this thing? How come? I'm curious about that because I think it gives some insight into the investigation of this case for the last 37 years. Maybe people could chime in with thoughts/opinions? I can imagine there's a separate set of thoughts about outsiders and insiders (skydiving) in this thread, and how it relates to DZ.com. But I figure that's quade's thing. I can understand if the jumpers rally and decide people like me are bad for the site/community. Heck it would be fine for me if there was a banning solely based on community vote... I find everyone's posts interesting. You're right that if there's a way to drum up more data, we should figure it out. But who has the data? Isn't the real problem that we need to figure out what we need to drum out of Ckret, and how to get that? REPLY> Your YouTube link was interesting. Obviously its still a media 'opportunity'. I want to assure Sluggo, Investigations cannot rely on entertainment any more than a train can run on marshmellows! It's funny how the media is never around when there is a calf to pull out of the thicket or the bog, in the middle of the wilderness. George -

I think Cooper learned a lot from hijacks of the era. If we acknowledge that, he doesn't seem so smart/unique? See, the point is, in 1971 they were shooting hijackers. Think about that, and the jump is obviously just a small part of the overall risk. And you can see maybe why Cooper decided 'no gun'. REPLY> Im not convinced he didnt have a pistol on him or in his brown paper bag. If he did he may have tossed the pistol in with the money - its a possible item to keep in mind. He reduced his exposure but he was also amazingly open inside the plane, as I see it. We know there were FBI personnel ready at both Seattle and Reno. He got very upset toward the end, at the time delay on the ground at SEA. He was ready to bail asap after Seattle. He wasnt going to risk landing a second time. Why didnt he hijack in Montana vs in Washington State?

Wonder if any of the true passengers were ever interviewed by the press... ltdiver REPLY> Frankly, yes. One is on YouTube. And not without issues. Ckret has remarked about how FBI interviews diverge (in some cases) from later socalled media interviews a few passengers gave after their FBI interviews. Passenger Simmons and his wife a case in point, in the Leonard Nimoy 'In Search Of' interview. One could get at little cynical about this and in Nimoy's case it concerns me a little because in general terms Ive always considered Nimoy a pretty credible guy. My reason for saying this is because Nimoy actually interviewed and had people I know on several of his programs, and we were quite happy with his presentation. We thought he was accurate and factual. But the subject matter was entirely different and had nothing to do with the Cooper case. Editorial oversight is always a concern in media presentations, or it should be...

REPLY> The map that has always confounded me is: attached. Note the Tina Bar location. I assume they had some reason for their map and that is what has always had me wondering what info they had, or thought they had, and from whom? It might go back to the first Washougal washdown theory. What has always bothered me is the thought they actually had hard information of some kind that lead them to draw their map. It remains a mystery always lurking ...

REPLY> This came up in the context of Duane Weber being identified? as one of the passengers on the CBS footage. I guess the thought is if Weber was there then that is the source of his compulsion or involvement? Okay, I tried to stay out of this…. But it’s just against my nature. The time stamp on the Cronkite Video doesn’t mean squat! What you are seeing is a FILM taken off a kinescope for archival purposes. The time stamp was created by a rotating light wheel and projected on the kinescope screen while the film was being made. The time displayed could be GMT, PST, EST, CST, MST or any other time, AM or PM. It could represent the time it was broadcast or the time it was being archived. I’m just guessing that at sometime later the film was projected onto a shadowbox and put on 1-inch video-tape and then later to a video file. If you’ll notice the time stamp rolls over twice or three times throughout the video. It doesn’t change when they switch from Seattle to Reno. That is pretty good evidence that the time-stamp has nothing to do with the time it was filmed. Ltdiver, I have no idea how old you are, and I surely don’t want to sound like I’m talking down to you, but I’m guessing you haven’t looked at this video and tried to interpret it with your 1971 “Culture Goggles” on. In 1971, the newscast anchored by Walter Cronkite (one of the most trusted men in America) would not use “File Footage” without labeling it as such. [ Remember Johnson’s comment about the Viet Nam War: “My God… If I’ve lost Cronkite, I’ve lost America”] There were no satellites, internet, or any other way to get news around the world other than making film and one-inch tape and sending them out by courier. The date and time stamped onto that video meant something to someone. But, for right now, for the purpose of trying to find DB Cooper, it just doesn’t mean squat. I don’t know if the video was taken when they entered the terminal from the busses, after they had been debriefed, or when they were boarding a plane to their destination. But it was taken and it was broadcast on Thursday the 25th of November 1971 (because Cronkite says “last night”). I’m pretty sure those are real Flight 305 passengers. I am curious why this has generated so much discussion? (That’s an honest question.) Sluggo_Monster EDIT: Remember, If it's physical... it's therapy!

REPLY> or this ?

I can’t speak for snowmman, but the only way I know to prove I am human is to show you my life’s history in pictures. I was born in Roswell, NM on July 7th, 1947. My parents were killed in a plane crash when I was only a few days old. They were both pilots (so I’ve been told), but I’m not sure who they worked for, but I’m fairly sure it was the Air Force. I was placed out for adoption. (See Adoption Photo.jpg) I was adopted by Dr. William Jefferson (W J) Walker and Ruby Walker and lived in Tempiute, NV throughout my early years. My new dad was an exobiologist and spent most of his time at the lab. I was allowed to go to the lab with him almost every day and made a lot of friends in his group of co-workers. My mom and dad worried about my health constantly, so I was sent away to a private school in Tooele, UT (where my Dad works now, after the Nevada lab closed). I studied Anthropology and Paleontology and got my B.S. degree there. (See College Studies.jpg) I got my Master’s Degree in Cartography from the University of Texas where I began seeing some new doctors and my health improved considerably. (See Cartography Degree.jpg) After my master’s Degree and several surgeries at U of Texas Medical Center my health was much better and I entered the workforce as a cartographer for the Department of Energy. Guess where? Back at the Nevada Test Site. (See Test Site Badge Photo.jpg) I finally got tired of Guv’ment jobs and started my own consulting business (See What If Technologies.jpg). Now after 8 months of reading this thread, I look like this. (See DZ dot com.jpg). So see, I’m no more of an alien than any of you are. Sluggo_Monster REPLY> hmmm.

REPLY> ah yes, I know it well. Actually its spelled: Mishkatonic. The owner hails from Columbus and owned the Lemon Lounge there - where UI footballers and Marching Band members used to hang out in the 60's. Here is a photo of Cooper tuning up! Jo may recognise this photo. I will also attach a photo of how he actually escaped from 305! (The SafecrackingPLF Theory).

Znlor lbh'er univat ceboyrzf orpnhfr lbh cbfg va ynathntrf ab bar haqrefgnaqf. Sluggo_Monster Absolutely!! REPLY> Ok. Nuff. tov miod! neleq ha'qiret! means: very good - let's go - meaning "lets get on with it". These remarks were squarely addressed in agreement at the poster's remarks and sentiments expressed. Im sorry that it disturbed some. Some are easily upset.

Nigel - Separating fantasy and lies from the truth is easy for me. Why? Im probably out of order saying this but, Duane had his life, you have yours. Separate and distinct. That might bear some thinging about. And I say this with due respect. I dont like seeing others stumble off into the darkness.

Good to know. Thanks. And at what time were the passengers released by Cooper? The footage shows a time of 5:36 GMT. Did the passengers -really- sit on the plane for almost 4 hours before being released? The plane was airborne again at 7:34 PM PST which would put that at 3:34 GMT. ltdiver REPLY> from transcript. 3:07 pm pst 11/24 t1 [Departure PDX] 305: Out PDX 2253/2258. ETA SEA 2336 on 18.5 RB KC2307CK 3:13 pm pst t1 [hijack note] 305: Passenger advises is hijacking enroute to Seattle. 6:21 pm pst t1 [ 305 on ground. New instructions from Cooper , getting ready to deplane passengers and stewardesses… 15 degree flaps first mentioned] 6:38 pm pst t1 [release of stewardesses etc … technical discussion about stairs] 305: Have negotiated release of 2 girls leaving at any moment. 3rd girl (Tina Mucklow) to stay with aircraft. H e wants her to manipulate stairs for him after plane is airborne. Have tried to tell him unable to operate stairs to lower position after 6:44 pm pst t1 [stewardesses leaving aircraft] 305: Ops. Other two gils leaving aircraft. MSFLOPS: Roger. KC0244CK Sluggo may have the "facts" version. So, by this timeline it's pretty certain that those passengers seen deplaning and entering the terminal are -not- from 305. Thanks. ltdiver REPLY> Sluggo should reply to this because he probably knows the full story. My impression from the transcript is the passengers stood on the tarmak (tarmac) for some time waiting to be taken to the terminal. There was confusion. Scott was concerned about the passenger's safety and complained about the confusion several times. One passenger ran back to the airplane trying to get something left behind and Scott describes him as being 'tackled' on the steps.... there were problems with sequestering the passengers into an area .. and finally with all the confusion of people wandering around the airport was closed. One frankly gets the image of near chaos for a time, from the transcript. Its my understanding that part of this traces back to Cooper not actually releasing the passengers to go back to the terminal until all he requested' had been delivered, andso they were held on the tarmak ... for sometime. But, Scott makes it very clear in the transcript he was concerned about the safety of the passengers and wanted them away from the plane (where Cooper is holding a bomb)...

Good to know. Thanks. And at what time were the passengers released by Cooper? The footage shows a time of 5:36 GMT. Did the passengers -really- sit on the plane for almost 4 hours before being released? The plane was airborne again at 7:34 PM PST which would put that at 3:34 GMT. ltdiver REPLY> from transcript. 3:07 pm pst 11/24 t1 [Departure PDX] 305: Out PDX 2253/2258. ETA SEA 2336 on 18.5 RB KC2307CK 3:13 pm pst t1 [hijack note] 305: Passenger advises is hijacking enroute to Seattle. 6:21 pm pst t1 [ 305 on ground. New instructions from Cooper , getting ready to deplane passengers and stewardesses… 15 degree flaps first mentioned] 6:38 pm pst t1 [release of stewardesses etc … technical discussion about stairs] 305: Have negotiated release of 2 girls leaving at any moment. 3rd girl (Tina Mucklow) to stay with aircraft. H e wants her to manipulate stairs for him after plane is airborne. Have tried to tell him unable to operate stairs to lower position after 6:44 pm pst t1 [stewardesses leaving aircraft] 305: Ops. Other two gils leaving aircraft. MSFLOPS: Roger. KC0244CK Sluggo may have the "facts" version.