georger

Good observation.. the "yes I know" response REPLY> It was in Cooper's interest to keep people guessing (up to a point) and assuming competence on his part. "Yes I know" would be appropriate, for that reason alone.

Hopefully (if everything goes right on my end) in several weeks we should have some interesting discoveries as it relates to the money thanks to Georger. REPLY/EXPLANATION: Some time ago, a panel was assembled and recommended to Larry Carr with the idea of examining the money. The panel consists of recognised experts in different areas of forensics and analysis, who will examine the money or specimens from the money cache. The analyses will be conducted in laboratory environments equiped with the latest in technology, including chemical, spectroscopic, and even electron microscopy (if necessary). Our panel will also have access to other researchers and resources if necessary. Every person on our panel is highly skilled, experienced, credentialed, and a published research scientist: some with ties to Quantico. We have no preconceptions about what we will find. Whatever we find, all information will be relayed to Spc. Agent Carr and his colleagues for their decision making process and determination. We consider this an opportunity to try and extract some useful information which will help the FBI first and foremost. It has been through the very kind efforts of Larry and his colleagues that this is possible. Speaking for the whole panel, I wish to thank them all publically. Wish us luck! Sincerely, Georger

REPLY: Two things come to mind. He may have been trying to apply principles from some aircraft he knew, to the 727 he was on. How does wheels down affect parachuting out the back at 10000 ft? High fuel consumption, hi drag, engines straining, all sounds exactly like what the witness at (Heisson?) said she heard, except her report was of a low passenger jet? Just a reminder: the Bohan report is still hanging. Guess I will go poke at graves! Just what I needed. G

QuoteSluggo, Aren't the system generated transients in the steam age 727-100 pressurization system only going to be felt with a sealed fuselage? Ask Benson. On graves...well maybe. I wouldn't have looked at it the way you do but it is the diversity of thought that often bears fruit on this forum. You do have the geocaching experience. I just lose stuff. I never find anything. Ckret has ruined any chance of me sleeping well tonight. New clues/info about the money? Derived from Georger? How long must we wait? Pure torture for someone with ADD. I want it yesterday. REPLY> NOW do you see why I asked for patience? My cards are always on the table (if there is a table!). Patience My Son. (Read Jeremiah espec the part about "It is good to wait for the salvation of ...). I hear you laughing - - I cant/wont say any more. Sorry.

wow...I've been looking at the little crumbs georger gave about his "client" that talked about project skyhook and parachuting. Any of you whackos out there that track UFOs as well as JFK assassination plots should have had light bulbs going off: WS-119L WS-461L Finally: we have a Roswell connection on this thread! The weird thing, is the georger mixed up a lot of things that don't seem to go together...like the recovery by plane. As far as I can tell, those recoveries were always unmanned payloads. Now if georger was talking to people who were in the pre-astronaut program, parachuting from the balloons derived from Project Skyhook. (the camera recon stuff)...then it's probably a pretty short list of names for the possible client. It ain't Attinger. It probably was connected to Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio? Possible names George Post Harry Collins But that all was in late '50s...so georger probably was just looking at someone's resume that included this stuff from the late '50s? Or maybe georger was just bullshitting us? The book "The Pre-Astronauts" has a lot of pages searchable on Google. http://books.google.com/books?id=1QS38bu9iTwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22The+Pre-Astronauts%22&sig=ACfU3U3H61sTQgFq8V288U_kS5Ud0dpOhg REPLY: The God's truth is I dont even remember the guy's name or where he came from. At the time DB Cooper was the last thing on my mind. Even when he started his schpeil it was his demeanor that had me most attentive, along with his words. I thought the man was going to have an episode so I got an orderly in to stand by. New Mexico did come up, but not Rosewell (per se). The man's story fit a pattern. That is what concerned me. (His thinking process) So far as I could tell his references to DB Cooper were meant to either impress me or used as a device for establishing a common reference (item in recent news everyone would know about). It was his sincerity that got through to me and his references to psychological traits in high risk takers he had worked with for many years. I have never tried to make any more or less of the event (and what the man said) than that. (Until this forum I had not thought about it in years. And every word I wrote is true.) Confidentiality would preclude me from giving names or dates etc in this matter, in any event. Anyone who knows me learns very quickly I am very strict in that regard. Once again, we have all had lives. Every person here has done many diferent (sometimes diverse) things in life. We all could supply anecdotes from our lives. In the case of my client, I always wondered how accurate his descriptions were (of high risk occupations). I have found some agreement with things he said and some strong disagreemnt with his generalisations. In the end, I felt he was speaking for himself and perhaps even doing some wishful thinking and perhaps even projecting to DB Cooper as representing a freedom my client had always lacked in his own life? At some level most of us dream to fly and be free of the world's bonds ... and triumph in something. He never mentioned UFO's once.

REPLY: Great post! This agrees with comments made by people I know (retirees) who worked for Boeing, NWA, etc. at the time. The Cooper hijacking was a "wake up" call. Posts have been made about this before. A person I know refered to this as the first "tactical" hijacking. I am sure we would disagree about this, but it is a word I havd heard over the years many times regarding this hijacking. Donald Nyrop played a large role in how these events unfolded. G.

QUESTION: Just to be clear, what are we defining "cabin" as? (it has to be the whole inside cavity of the aircraft in this case, correct?). They were going unpressurised. 8:13.14 305: Getting some oscillations in the cabin. Mustbe doing something with the air stairs. MSP: Roger [Parms: 10kft 15*flap gear/wheels down] G

I think it fed the public consciousness of "meticulously planned". Just like the idea that it was the first US extortion attempt. (It wasn't). I also noticed that an estimated bailout time of 8:13 was already reported on 11/26/71...with a quote saying it was based on slight changes in altitude from the flight recorder. (edit) don't know if this was really the oscillations, or not. This made them concentrate search around Woodland. REPLY> I wonder how this squares with Tosaw's account for Soderlind? The two sources for 8:13 would have agreed( flight recorder & Soderlind radio copy/map mark). What was our previous time stamp for "nose up and trim" (Scott said he did), at oscillations or bump? I will try and find this. But, if my memory serves this was also at ~8:12 -8:13. Im glad you posted this Snowmman. Thanks. G

I'm confused Sluggo. On the one hand, you say you've read everything, but you seem to not have read my posts about the successful jump from a DC-9 (LaPoint 1/20/1972). You don't believe the myth that 727 was "the only one possible" right? I had even posted the news article... The myth is especially broken when we include non-US, like the BAC-111 (also posted pic of that). I posted the MD-88 rear stairway photo because my understanding is that the MD- series was derived from the DC-9? (which is why they were sometimes called DC-9-88 or whatever?...although I'm guessing a little there). I couldn't find an actual DC-9 ventral stair photo. Did people not believe the DC-9 story or ??? (edit) I'm exploring that. Which is why I posted the likely stable of planes Northwest had in 1971. I'll know more when I get my 1971 timetable. And you saw the people with apparent parachute plans that were on 707's and DC-8's right? How do you explain that? (they're the opposite: bad choices). Just because most future successful jumps mirrored the 727 choice, doesn't mean the first 727 choice was planned. REPLY> I wonder how many of these hijackers tested the route or the plane prior to hijacking?

For the experienced pilots out there. What does lowering the wheels on a 737 do (in terms of flight characteristics) that going to 30 deg. flaps (as opposed to 15 deg. flaps) DOESN’T do. (ie. Why did Cooper want the wheels down and 15 degrees instead of wheels up and 30 deg?) Remember: Thrust>; Drag

In your original "underlined" post, it looks like you tried to copy and paste the question "Can someone prove Duane was not Cooper?". After that is the markup code for an underline start and there is never a markup code for an underline stop. So the underlining just continues. Computers can be very frustrating sometimes because they do EXACTLY what you tell them to do. REPLY> Thanks Quade.

Sure, here goes: Nobody knows who Cooper is/was or even exactly where he jumped. We engage in endless speculation about the forgoing. Jo Weber thinks her late husband Duane was Cooper, but most on the forum disagree. Quade is the adult in charge of the forum and raps our knuckles when we get mean to each other. Ckret is a real FBI agent and wants to solve the case with our help. Cooper is almost a hobby for him pursued only in spare moments. His day job involves catching bank robbers. We get off topic sometimes. We squabble too...but there is a base of mutual respect and collegiality. There. I just saved you a LOT of reading. 37.7 REPLY! Brilliant. Geoger

REPLY> My client was not a hijacker, so far as I ever knew. I had to wonder however, if he had some insight. This lead to a number of discussions between staff and some research. One of the reasons I finally presented this here is because, as Sluggo points out, we have some very experienced people here who might be able to identify with or disclaim part or all of what my client said. I didnt present this here for sensationalism! What made my client's remarks have some credibility was his documented background in physics and his long tenure with the US military and high altitude projects which involved parachuting and other high risk activities. I mean we are supposed to be looking for missing links here. Which rocks will we turn over and which will we not turn over, and who shall decide? I mean we could focus on Cemetary graves in the Orchards WA area or we could look into high risk motivations which may overlap with the decision to skyjack - or we could look at many things as we have been. Thanks.

I believe you have misled us as to your profession. REPLY> I havent mislead anybody. Ive just had a life, like everyone else here. I even washed pots and pans in college to get by. Does that make me a liar? If I said aluminum pans and iron pans need separate washing, would that make me a liar? If I said I had a wooden leg would that make me a liar? I dont have a wooden leg, I dont want this forum shut down, and I apologise to you for any abuse or slight, real or intended. George

REPLY> Where is the personal attack? I fail to see it. I made no moral judgements beyond what many others have already made.. Just stated my opinion. You are the one making moral judgements, against me! You have me (AND OTHERS!) at a total loss here. Please explain. Thanks, George

REPLY TO MY OWN: How did this all get underlined? I didnt do this. I just typed. Georger

Can someone prove Duane was not Cooper? - REPLY> I can. Duane didnt have the brains or the guts to be Cooper. Neither you or Duane have been a couple of saints. Just a couple of lost souls seeking attention and meaning in a hard world. But, you and others have opened the door to the whole psychological side of this case. There is one option we have to consider, as follows. In the mid 1970s a man walked into my office, sat down, and began his personal interview with me after weeks of being evaluated by staff at our facility. I opened this man's file and began reading and noted his credentials which included time in something called Project Skyhook (a program involving high altitude baloons and high altitude research including parachuting from high altitude baloons - a program conducted by the US Army Air Corps in tandem with the aviation industry. Our conversation came around to Project Skyhook itself. Later documentation proved this man had in fact been intimately involved in several facets of Project Skyhook including several other high altitude parachute programs. Just to relieve stress during this interview I finally leaned back in my chair and asked this individual: "What is it like to parachute from one of these hi altitude baloons?". The man lowered his head and laughed and said, "you could ask DB Cooper". I took this to mean the man wanted to stop the interview and was diverting the conversation. I mean it was a Friday afternoon, the clients and staff had had a full week, and we all needed a break. I closed the man's file and said, "OK. I understand. It's ok. I know you want to get back to the dorm . . . " Prior to this moment and a few letters from my grandmother at Vancouver WA, DB Cooper was the last thing on my mind. I kept waiting for my client to begin getting out of his chair, I asked him if he needed assistance getting back to the dorm, and he replied softly "no", and with no movement on my client's part I finally said, "are you ok?", and my client responded "They just don't understand. "And you dont understand either, God damnit!" I called an orderly in for assistance. With the orderly standing at this man's side and me now sitting on my desk close to this man, the orderly and I listened as the man explained his situation. He began by saying 'we are all alike, high altitude and high risk parachuters, DB Cooper, and other high risk takers - it is in the risk of the enterprise itself that satisfaction is drawn and survival is secondary. He explained that DB Cooper and people like him (and himself) never intend to survive and may not want to, and the money was irrelevant once it had been obtained, because the enterprise of hijacking itself is complete just as going up high and jumping is complete in itself. That if Cooper dd not die in the jump he very likely committed suicide on the ground because (a) "nothing in life could ever equal the experience of the hijacking again, and (b) it is the hijacking that is complete and sufficient in istelf, and (c) only a few special people get to chose how they will leave this world (everybody else must die by ordinary means)". My client explained to us there is a basic fatalism in high risk activity and this was why DB Cooper had done what he did, and why he probably would never be found. Because this was his original plan. "How else do you become a legend", my client asked. [I am not offering this as an explanation for DB Cooper. I am saying this is how one of my clients who had experience with high risk takers explained DB Cooper. It was my client's belief it was Cooper's intent not to survive and exit this world on his own terms, if he could. This may be a missing link...]

Well, actually hardly - that was just one of the first posts that came up in a search, so I left it there. I've now looked at a few more (by no means all of them). It is interesting to note that in a number of them Jo accuses the FBI of a cover-up. In one, she even says that she had asked the FBI "many times" about the commutation and they told her it didn't mean anything. Hmmm... seems they were ... RIGHT! Now, I wonder who owes who an apology...? REPLY> Agree. I wonder if Duane would have persued this as much as Jo has. Jo has her own agenda. Thanks -

Jo, I can't tell you how relieved I am to see that you seem to be accepting that the commutation means nothing. However, I have to point out that you did use it to connect dots... see below (it's long because i left it unedited - so as not to get accused of selective editing) but see especially your last paragraph. Now, you surely have to wonder what other bits of "evidence" have led you to various "confirmations" that may be completely spurious. And we still have a situation where the only real bits of evidence - like fingerprints and DNA - just don't match up (not just to Duane, but to anyone so far - like Cook's suspect too). REPLY> good work.

Orange, You completely missed the second level conspiracy explanation. To cover up the significance of Duane's 1968 commutation, the MO govt in the very next year dramatically ramped up commutation volume thus effectively diminishing or even nullifying their significance. A guy in a black helicopter told me so. 377 the really funny thing is... that exact "explanation" had crossed my mind! (albeit sans guy from black helicopter) heh! I was actually astounded when I found the article. I looked again when 377 said the state numbers I quoted before were too low. So good for 377 to be skeptical at first. The surprising thing was how MO was apparently unique during the period we were interested in, and how they had a law change in '79. (I'm guessing about other states, but it doesn't really matter what other states were doing, except how it affected our bias...) Just totally unpredictable. Shows how random coincidences can easily occur and without knowing the full picture, be judged based on present information/bias, rather than the information from the period/region. The sheer number may also explain why records on Duane were lost. The article was written by reporters in a hot political race evidently. Someone trying to tar Republicans (or challenge an assertion?) for being soft on crime historically. The reporters were trying to show how that was an unfair tar, that there was a good reason for it. So the data is probably good...during a gubernatorial race, reporters are going to try to be accurate. (relatively modern, 1998) Also they noted that the governor's office couldn't find some records. So I suspect it's not just Duane's records that were lost, but others also. But as everyone sees, the key thing was that commutations were given as part of the parole process. So it's much easier to understand how Duane would be released after serving half his sentence. REPLY> I forget the year, but,. there was a fire in a joint State-Federal records centre in 19?? in StLouis and I know for a fact the fire destroyed hundreds of thousands of Federal military records. Not sure if this is related ....

REPLY> This has been discussed at length in the past and nothing conclusive ever surfaced. Keep track of Rataczack's statement which has Cooper bailing as Rat "could see the nothern suburbs of Portland". Now, consider what PDX radar saw, if anyone was looking.

No. The article I just posted above I think answers the question. The laws were different in MO then. There was a parole board, but evidently not full powers until '79? or something like that. (see above). See, we were thinking we understood MO. We didn't. Note to Jo: if this doesn't make you realize you were connecting dots that didn't exist, I don't know what will. You have to read the above and agree: Duane's commutation meant nothing. It was like parole. 377 will have to concur, eventually. (I think?) REPLY: MO has always been a poor State, economically. Sometimes commutations have an economic motivation, and then they let the small fish go. It's expensive to run prisons.

Everyone laugh because that is a strange reply for Georger - Georger - did you fall on your head laughing. No Duane was never a boxer nor did he ever have a head injury or be diagnosis with anything you guys have mentioned. He did need some counseling regarding going on the Kidney Machine, but who wouldn't - they do the same thing when someone has cancer. REPLY: Jo, can you tell me simply "why" you want Duane to have been Cooper? Georger

The raincoat is a non-issue. It is probably the least of his worries. In fact, probably his only contributing survival factor if he landed safely that night. REPLY: I have been keeping a tally. (for a long time) The current tally is 13 - raincoat would have harmed or killed him. 9 - raincoat of no consequence at all. All experienced jumpers (I guess). A similar tally of survived vs didnt survive splits almost 50-50 among skyjumpers. Now do you see the dilemma? Experts cant even agree.

And how would the judicial system deal with the flood of people that would simply claim to have been DB Cooper in order to become rich or go down in history? How would they deal with the delusional ones living out a fantasy life that might actually think they are DB Cooper? REPLY: The same way they deal with them here.