georger

The Ingram family dynamics are a bit complex. But a number of them gathered to inspect and paw-over the money the evening after finding it. (The biggest thing in their lives and it just kept getting bigger after the Cooper connection). One account has a 'brother-in-law' removing rubber bands or pieces of bands at the Ingram residence, which is interesting. Harold and Patricia went in to meet with H and others. Their story fairly straightforward. It appears the FBI took charge of the money. At that point things got nutty with other family members getting into the act, as the news articles relate. It seems to have then entered their minds they might not get the moneyback so Patricia called back to ask if Brian would get a reward - sad she had just heard he would from a radio report. Before it was over other family members were involved and stories began to conflict, as news articles reveal. Just when Jo Weber gets into this, I do not know but it could NOT have been until years later after Duane supposedly reveals to Jo 'I am DB Cooper' some time around 1995 - By then the Ingrams have gone on with their lives. From my point of view it is a shame the money was not simply left where found and authorities contacted so the find and all of its circumstances could be documented. But, H and othrs got on this promptly as soon as they could, whcih is to their credit. I have a feeling one of Fazio's Holsteins found the money first! Maybe Boo-Boo or Elsa!

REPLY: When did you first contact any of the Ingrams, or they contact you? Dates . . .

Georger - what else could explain the smaller pieces being deeper or did they just sift there in the recovery process like the grits and cereal. Reply> I wasnt there during the recovery or the excavation so have no idea what is sifted or moved around etc - would have to see it to get an idea. Generally speaking, lighter objects 'float' in the strata of which they are a part and go where the strata goes if something changes . . . This is all conjecture based on a 2nd or even 3rd hand reports.

REPLY> Harold D Ingram, wife Patricia, son Brian. Crystal Ingram ex-wife of Harold's brother David. daughter Denise. Parents Divorced.

REPLY> The article proves the child Denise was interviewed for the article and claimd a role in finding the money. The child's mother was on hand with the child during the interview. Many people have talked to witnesses, Jo. Most of them years ago. You are not the only person who talked to witnesses, but you may be the only person who maintains a continual relationship? Georger sometimes I have to re-read Jo's posts a couple of times, before I see she doesn't really read other people's posts in detail before she goes off. Reply - became obvious to me a long time ago. Im in the opposite dilemma. Cant say what I would like to and sometimes need to. I would be in instant trouble if I did ... There is probably no point in calling Brian? If you remember this thread, Ckret called Brian to talk about the money a while back. Ckret pressed him about the rubber band question, and Brian had to call his parents to check. That tells me Brian's memory is unreliable today. That and family dynamics . . . Also Brian gave varying descriptions of the bundle positioning during his interviews for the money auction. I posted on that before, although it's weak since it's a function of the article writers also. Reporters sometimes report accurately. Obviously Denise and Brian were together, playing. One or the other turned the money up but whatever happened the adults took over. As the various articles have reported, Harold talked about it at work which is to his credit. This lead to a meeting with H. At length, everyone was interviewed. But then the Ingrams had to file an action to claim a share. Very likely had Harold just walked into a bank to try and convert the bills, a trace of serial numbers would have followed, and who knows what would have developed. Harold made no connection to Cooper until people at his work suggested a possible link. I think your suggestion of a quick 'theory' to account for Tina Bar and connect it to the Washougal is accurate, however the Washougal had already been an active theory, people had searched there. Some explored the Lewis River as the link to T_Bar but that quickly proved hydrologically impossible. So, apparently. the Washougal theory was given credance ... At the very least I thought it odd how often Brian talked about how the bundles were found close to each other in his auction interviews...almost like he was regurgitating stuff that seemed important to others, or his memory was kind of weak. There is no doubt the adults took over. The story they developed and their reasons for doing so is anyone's guess. on the "lifeline" Brian used: May 1, 2008, 9:33 AM Ckret posted (snipped) .. So I then started putting calls into Brian Ingram. He called me back and we spoke about the discovery of the money. What I found was that the money was not recovered near the water but about 20 to 40 feet from the edge. He said he found it in an area that had recently been covered in water. So I thought, "well not really much of a difference." I then asked for the details about the condition of the money when he found it and he confirmed, after speaking with his parents, that the money absolutely had rubber bands around the bundles. Rubber band fragments seems universal. Three bundles each with band (fragments). Each bundle more or less stuck together and needing separation. The Ingrams spread the money out at home as best they could and made some separations. They discussed the matter. Harold goes to work the next day and starts chirping to his workmates 'hey guess what I found!' . . . When you look at where Tina Bar sits, there is nothing (and I do mean nothing) compelling about its location in the light of the present-day facts. It does not even sit in a hydrologically compelling location, by itself. But I am saying nothing new . . . Good show Snow! Georger

When did 1974 enter the mix? I am very surprised to have you even consider adding the human element. Now you have my attention. Perhaps my screaming that the money be tested using todays' forensic has finally been heard. Could the test have shown that the money was buried in another location prior to entering the water? I know they can do amazing things with forensics today, but thought most of it was just for show on TV or in the movies. Maybe you could put something together since you have talked to all the witnesses and still communicate with so any. Th world awaits your guidance and permission. Georger

As for the postings by Georger and Snowmman - I am critized if I make any in-put, but what I just read in these last few posts is very questionable. This is how the myths obscure the truths and I don't have enough time on this earth to continue to try to keep them straight. How in the world would a 5 yr old child - remember this. At 5 she was very impressionable and probably very jealous of all the attention her brother got over the yrs....Why don't they call Brian? I do not understand all of certain speculations when there are still those who are alive that know exactly what happened. I have been in contact with actual witnesses over the yrs - how many of you have done that or care enough about the truth to do so? REPLY> The article proves the child Denise was interviewed for the article and claimd a role in finding the money. The child's mother was on hand with the child during the interview. Many people have talked to witnesses, Jo. Most of them years ago. You are not the only person who talked to witnesses, but you may be the only person who maintains a continual relationship? Georger

No, the Scott - Himmelsbach meeting is not myth, but somehow the faulty information you have was a myth. There was never any discussion of the plane being West of I-5. I also spoke to the Co-pilot yrs ago and nothing was said about being West of I-5. It was due to the Money Find and there was lots of Speculation about WHY the money was found where it was. The only explanation they had was the Washougal so the myth was created to justify the Money Find. Being West of I-5 is a myth or speculation by a reporter. As I have said before talk to the Co-pilot and rely on the reports made by the Chase planes and the communications taking place between the plane and the land. I am unable to handle the technical language - since Sluggo left we do not have anyone who has the experience and knowledge to put this Myth to bed. NOTE: I had no contact with Himmelsbach prior to 1996 June or July of 1996 was the first contact.. NOTE: Himmelsbach knows that some errors are in the book. As you know someone else wrote the book with Himmelsbach. The very reason I fired and refused to work with certain writers who wanted to do a story about this. They couldn't keep the facts straight...and this or that had to be said this way for such a story to sell....my decision was - it will be the truth or nothing. REPLY> Thanks for the help Jo. I agree a lot of speculation followed the money find. No obvious way to link it given the facts at the time. Georger

Thanks Snow. But surely not west of I5 during the whole flight (SEA-PDX). Perhaps only near PDX which might explain the four or five mystery X's west of the penciled fp at Portland ? In any event, the fp on the FBI map does intersect I5 at Portland, briefly G.

Snow & Ckret: Is it your understanding Scott revised his flight path estimate (in a discussion with H in 1980) to say he was further EAST of his original estimate, - not WEST ? TIA. Georger

REPLY: and so, how do rumors & missinformation get started? That's an easy one. They get started in the vacuum of no official facts & information, even over 37 years! In a mass marketed media society that leads to a curse quickly. Anyone and everyone is free to speculate endlessly, and Cooper may have even understood that when he "targeted" 305 on 11-24-71, to make his own personal point. In the end given enough time, even officials have a hard time piecing the facts back together. The history gets lost and becomes compromised. I am constantly amazed how as time passes new people emerge, with new sets of alleged facts and new re-interpretations. Of the original people involved fewer and fewer survive every day. This means fewer and fewer remain in a position to know the facts and work with them, as time passes. Sluggo uses the phrase "cultural goggles" but the fate or nations and no war was decided by the DB Cooper affair. The Coopper case has no Homer and I seriously doubt it ever will. So perhaps it will merit some rhym in a fuiture children's book on common sense: 'Don't Himmelsbach or your Cooper will find itself being Buzzarded" ? George

REPLY> Thanks! GeorgeR

REPLY> and your evidence for this is? I doubt any evidence will be presented. why present evidence for something 'that needs no evidence'? You make a claim, like a candidate made a claim against Adler Planetarium two nights ago that was dead wrong and a flasehood. Maybe the news will dispense with your claim tomorrow ? I see you just registered, just to post this? Thius is not the first time a conjecture like yours has been made. Are you aware of that? Do you think this is NEW? If what you suggest occurred then please explain the lack of medical care immediately upon landing at Reno. Tina was readily available, participated in the CBS interview, was interviewed by FBI etc all without going to a hospital or medical care ... Tina then was interviewed & debriefed further, still without any medical or psychological intervention and this continued uninterupted for some time. We all know the event affected Tina. It affected Flo Schaffner and Hancock. Its affected everyone including people whose names who will never know! It may be that the reason Tina avoids publicity is to avoid nuts? By all accounts Tina resumed her life. I will let you guess the rest... You deserve no more. Georger

Jo, you are leaping to conclusions again. Ckret did not say the new info is related to the evidence found in Feb 1980; he said: (my bold added) The new info may of course be related to the money, especially as we have been told there is further investigation into that going on; but you can NOT conclude that from what Ckret said. It may be something entirely different, for example, the first concrete piece of evidence they have found since they found the money. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but in the meantime better not to jump to conclusions, because it makes people wonder how many other times you have done so. REPLY> Appreciate the post. As we have all learned, every aspect of this matter is complex - no simple easy answers at this late date 37 years later. It takes honest effort. Most of us are adults and know who and what are credible or not, by this point. Thats all I have to say. Georger

REPLY> Did you do all of Duane's thinking for him too?

The map or site is only as good as the person putting it there - it is not a real dictionary or encyclopedia. The arrow is to high for "Tena's" bar on that map. You have it at the upper end of Vancouver Lake when it is down toward the lower end of that lake. I don't have a map of it handy, but you will find that the arrow on that map is too High and too far North. The area was part of the Fazio farm and the only river that flows North into the Columbia is the Washougal - that would allow the money to be deposited at the Fazio farm. Although the Fazio property "Tena's Bar" is only a few feet above sea level - rarely - maybe once or twice a yr. does the river rise to the level where the money was found, The farmers used the beach in their farming -which included moving cattle and they claimed that hundreds of people came there for recreational activities. It was the opinion of these long time owners and farmers that IF the money had been there for very long even under a layer of sand that someone would have found it. My father was a farmer - and he knew his land - these 4 brothers knew their land - I will take the word of these long time farmers of that land before that of any hydrologist. The local fishermen also where of the opinion that the money had come down the river from somewhere upstream. They also felt and were in agreement that the money may have been deposited on the beach with the melting snow about 2 wks before (this caused the river to rise) and left the money there covered by a layer of silt. Fishermen and Farmers - good indicators and they knew their land and their waters. Also it has never been explained how the three packets were able to stay together after they separated from the sack if indeed the money bag itself did land in the Columbia. The DZ (per todays' technology) makes the money landing in the Columbia highly improbable. Writers and seekers of Cooper and his money have for 36 yrs moved the DZ to fit their whims or theories. Now it is time to look at FACTS. The DZ and the money in the Columbia and the conditions under which it was found do not fit together like a puzzle piece. That is because they occurred 6 yrs apart. Not one of the theories can explain how three packets arrive together - except what I have been trying to tell the FBI and others since May 24 1996 - for over 12 yrs. I believe the statements I made explain that the only chances of such a deposit being made...these statements where not made by me but by fishermen and farmers in 1980.. Jo, do you happen to know what kind of cattle the Fazio's raised? Was it a dairy operation? George.

My reaction to call the FBI was not just the book - it was the sudden surge of memories - when I found that D.B. Cooper had given the name Dan Cooper. All of those memories exploding so fast and so vivid - I did not know who Dan Cooper was until that night. As for the other relentless quips you make I will state again - I gave copies to the FBI. It is their job to check things out NOT mine. If I had paid for an expert handwriting analysis - I would have been my doing the FBI's investigation for them. Maybe they did make a comparison, but I have never been told anything about what they did or did not do other than the DNA. REPLY> where is the rest of the page with the rest of map? Looks like ........... Georger

The rubber band was ONLY suggested by me as a way of securing the bag - we had them in the car. He could just as well have tripled the top over and threw it that way. He was watching it go down stream when I got there. ------------------------------------- REPLY> Only one rubber band? What type of rubber band made by who? Vulcanised band or unvulcanised? Sterile rubber band or unsterile? Georger.

REPLY> Thanks for the clarification, Snow. I guess what bugs me is its 'Duane did this, Duane said this, etc etc ' without one independently verifiable thing Duane did or said of his own, because of course 'Duane was in hiding'. Its circular. The arguement proves itself, and is therefore no argument at all. It is all Jo and no living Duane. Jo could be making the whole thing up. A ploygraph might settle this once and for all. And to make things even more wierd, there lurks the possibility some official will come foreard and say "Jo is vindicated, X Y & Z are full of ____, and Duane was DB Cooper". G.

well apparently with this map we are looking at Duane's handwriting? Just one word of it. Toutle. Sheesh! The least I expected was a line or two, as in, "Hey Mo! Bring home some tomato juice tonight". The good news is Jo doesnt claim this map was found in a bottle which washed up on Tina Bar, as a further sign from the celestial Duane saying: "Hey. It was me. I'm Shirley McLane." (sp?) Snow is right about some old scanners and xerox and such, and grid patterns from some of them. I knew a genealogist once and her (Casio?) copy machine turned out everything with a light grid pattern in the background. Thermo-fax machine? But today Im more convinced than ever that the map is incomplete, half the page missing? Its hard to get good help in the copying business. I would also say Im suspicious something has been erased over Vector 23-287 leaving a remnant of another pencil mark. Its a pencil mark for sure, same pencil density as 'Toutle'. I just want to close with one thing: You do know what everyone else is thinking here, dont you. Sitting back, laughing their _______ off. We ask for evidence and once again we get a mere crumb and anyone observing this is probably asking: "These people must be nuts and have a lot of free time on their hands!". Jo has guessed FBI, CIA, DOT, knows Ckret, doesnt know CKRT, in conspiracy, out of conspiracy, etc etc etc. She may now claim we are all inmates at some institution, which might not be far wrong. I think Jo is the mean old nurse with a big needle & a club in the drawer. I plan to make my escape - soon. And did you ever fake a note to a teacher when you were a kid? Mom or Dad's signature. As in, "Johnny has histoplasmosis with a touch of blasto-myocondrial endopathy! Has three days to live! Doctor's appointment today at noon". signed - Jeanne. You always printed. Never cursive. Cursive could be traced and compared. So in like-manner we get one word - "Toutle". Printed. Printed so not even God could trace it. Now the teacher has the task of proving it is real or not! Do you get a pass and get the afternoon off or not? Does Jo get to be famous and Duane gets to be DB Cooper? That's why in my hometown teachers always sent such notes to the Principle to read - who knew the hand writing of everyone in town, and in my case happened to be my own Grandmother! I never could get a break. Georger.

Or the simple possibility that someone else with handwriting similar to Duane's (no idea what the writing looks like) and, as you say, did what people often do - annotate in the margins of something they are interested in. (For the record, my opinion is that it is extremely bad behaviour to write in a book that doesn't belong to you, even if it is in pencil.) Looking at it from an evidentiary perspective - I doubt that any court would accept "hearsay" evidence that someone "knows" whose handwriting it is. Wouldn't the courts want a handwriting expert at the very least? And this really is something that Jo could organise very easily and without much expense - I agree that it is still nothing conclusive (like you say, Duane may simply have been interested) but at least there would finally be something in Jo's story that stood up to minor scrutiny. well, it was enough to get Himmelsbach interested, Jo says. Himmelsbach is not here to speak for himself. The map Snowmman posted (of Jo's) does ID Toutle. I checked. The map was printed on grid paper which shows signs of age. There is also a second pencil mark (or partial image?) over the letters Vector 23-287. What is that? There is something wierd about this map - looks incomplete and cut off at the bottom? Oh well. see attached blowups of map - Georger.

The FBI is more than welcome to make copies of those pages and they were sent copies of those pages in 1996. REPLY> You say above, you sent copies of Duane's BOOK notes to the FBI in 1996. That was 12 years ago. Scan the copies and show them here now. Show me yours, and I will show you mine! Georger On this subject, Jo, did the handwriting just "look" like Duane's, or did you ever actually get a handwriting expert to compare the two? Again, my immediate response is: if the FBI were sent something and didn't bother to do anything about it, well, maybe that's because they didn't think the so-called "evidence" was worth anything. REPLY> The relevant quotes are these, from post above: "Jo never knew Duane to go to the library. Yet in pencil in the book's margins was what looked to her like Duane's handwriting. On one page he had written the name of a town in Washington where a placard from the rear stairs of Flight 305 had landed. "I knew right off the bat that handwriting was his," says Anne Faass, who worked with Duane for five years. Jo called the FBI the night she read the D.B. Cooper book. "They just blew me off," she says." (US News & World Report, 2000) Jo never names the book in question - Claims Duane had written the name of the "town" where the placard was found. (The placard was not found in a town but in the woods & Duane could have picked this info up from a newspaper?) The date when Duane was in the library writing these notes? Has an independent witness to these notes being Duanes handwriting - one Anne Faass who had worked woth Duane. Lastly, Jo ignores the possibility Duane just went to a library, got interested in DB Cooper case, got a book to read on the subject, and made notes in the margin of the book - as is very common in libraries. But her reaction is to call the FBI! Next time I have a water leak I think I will "call the FBI for help"! Hell ... I will call the President! Might as well go right to the top?

You say above, you sent copies of Duane's BOOK notes to the FBI in 1996. That was 12 years ago. Scan the copies and show them here now. Show me yours, and I will show you mine! Georger

My reaction to this is: put you through what, exactly? Do you mean calling you out on inconsistencies and "evidence" that isn't there or doesn't add up? Yes, those kind of things probably don't go down too well with the FBI, for obvious reasons. Now, unless I missed this, can I just confirm that while you keep on saying that the FBI removed the registration page, you did not actually get confirmation from the FBI that they did? So we still only have the clerk's word for this (and here I agree 100% with what 377 et al were saying...) Ckret has posted that he cannot say without doubt what happened but that he cannot find any records relating to this in the files. The whole story is based on heresay. Not one shred of tangible proof in what by now has become a Jo Weber Epic more prolific than any other Cooper confessor story and promotion, in the whole history of the DB Cooper case. Were this not an inconsequential matter in the first place, something I think Jo relies on, I would say that Jo is a paid schill being paid to divert attention away from the DB Cooper case. Jo has her own motives and Jo's efforts are obviously full of "motivation of some kind". And the end is endless! Jo has made her own mark more noteworthy than Duane will ever be. Perhaps that was her goal from the outset. She must have felt she was owed something by somebody? So where is any tangible proof of anything? Example: a photo copy of the library book with Duane's handwritten notes on the hijacking? Hard physical evidence the world could see and evaluate. Maybe Jo has these documents but she has never produced them to my knowldgde. Instead its all 'he said, she said, some third party said". All heresay. All of the socalled evidence magically vanishes the moment it becomes necessary to see it . . . Its like a Cassey Anthony story. One story piled on top of another in ever increasing complexity, and never one shred of simple unimpeacable evidece independent of endless dialogue. The whole is like some kind of endless Communist Dialectic, to me. I guess we can all be thankful Duane was not Stalin or we trully would be in real trouble, and historians would have to be going to Jo Weber for the truth? Maybe Jo is Anastasia? It's an event de sociologique!