georger

Reply> I can go with that! Just a hint that there is no such thing as just finger prints, ala Jo. What there is is transference. Forget the grooves and lands and hills and vallies, and prominences and praetoria too, and all the rest of that structural BS ... what you have is chemistry and even dna on a surface. Whatever the guy was doing, its in the print too. So class, let's say this all together - NANO- meter. Nano. One more time, NAH-No. Back to your regular program. Symba Bill? Tarzan says: "get down Symba". Woops I mean Jo! Georger

========================= Georger this is you reply to my post: "Jo, you have a mean streak and it gets you into trouble . But your comments about Duane's motive and state of mind in 1971 are appropriate. They establish a strong psychological connection between Duane and his mother. Can you not see with all of this, it is very unlikely Duane was Dan Cooper. ? But nobody expects you will change." ================== Georger: Why can't you see motive in his illness and connection to his mother - obviously you have NO idea what living on a kidney machine in the 50's was like or you would know what was going thur Duane's mind. "Hell if I am going to die - I will go out in a blaze - if I live then I got enough money to live on before this disease puts me on welfare." What little was know about the disease made it more frightening than a cancer diagnosis because there was NO cure - but technology brought in new machines, transplants and other ways to manage the disease - he got to live to see those days. ================= . If you are truely doing this: WHY do you knock me every chance you get - it only proves the conspiracy theory with how negative you are regarding Duane and this influences anyone else on the panel. If the group is being paid by the government and if they are being paid by a private party - it means they are biased to the employer. It is a NO WIN thing to finding COOPER. If you have connections to the FBI - so be it. There are FBI agents who have their own agenda in this case - IF some of the information I have recieve is correct The FBI never verified if a person contacting me was legitimate or not but he incriminated several people in the incident including an FBI agent. No, he did not accuse Himmelsbach - it was another name and if you truely got your facts together then you know the name of that agent. His story went so far as to say the co-pilot trained Cooper, I have not been able to digest 95% of what this man told me. I did test him to see how much was real and how much was fantasy. He would tell me a story and then I would send him FALSE information on which he would build a fantasy story. To protect myself from his fantasy - I would copy each E-mail to a party who knew what was truth and what was false - thru this process I had to eliminate most of what he had told me, but a couple of small pieces of information held on - this man knew Duane and his wife, but just how is yet to be determined. This man knew something else and the only way to shut him up was to declare him certifiably mentally distrubed just like you are TRYING to do with me. You do this publically in a forum and you know that when the public hears something long enough - they start to believe it. NOT one thing I stated warrants your statement when you replied to the comments about Duane's motive and state of mind in 1971. They definitely establish a motive. IF you really spoke with Tina and showed her a picture line of all the suspects along with other pictures submitted by family memembersof these indiividual that had never been publicized - You might be surprised - images can trigger aconversation long buried in our memory...but the you know that. After all that was your specialty wasn't it? ===================== ----------------------------------------------------- Reply> It is pointless to debate this further. Out of the thousands of posts Jo has made over the years, only now does the pivital issue of Duane's serious medical condition surface, a condition involving facts and circumstances which bare directly on Duane's candidacy for being DB Cooper. Perhaps this was never about Duane being Cooper, at all, but something else? Im only sorry it took me so long to run across this piece of information. Let it be a lesson. The medical conditions of Cooper candidates must be taken seriously, high up the chain in considering people. Thanks, Georger

Hi Buzzard. Short answer is no and not likely. Tha stats dont favour it happening. Many have discussed this here - you can do a search and call up the various posts. The Cooper threads here at DZ now comprise a large compendium of issues related to Cooper .. it would make good winter night reading. Good luck - Georger

His mother died after 2 yrs on the rudimentary machines of the 50's - that is the image he had in his mind at the time of his diagnosis in 1970 or 71 (I was not with him at that time I do not know when he was hospitalized the first time when the diagnosis was made.) Duane's condition was of the hereditary type. Emotionally in 1971 he felt the world had come to an end - all he could invision was what his mother went thru -- he didn't want to die like that. If he had a grudge it would be that he inherited his mothers genes. If he had a wish - it was not to die the way his mother did. The motive and the state of mind! You walked right into that one Georger. Reply> Jo, you have a mean streak and it gets you into trouble - . But your comments about Duane's motive and state of mind in 1971 are appropriate. They establish a strong psychological connection between Duane and his mother. Can you not see with all of this, it is very unlikely Duane was Dan Cooper. ? But nobody expects you will change. I am not the money man. I am a person who assembled a panel of experts (6-10) who are examining the whole Cooper case, with special emphasis on physical evidence which includes the money. I have a place on that panel, but we work as a panel. Good luck. Georger

Ckret: Did anyone report the hijacker having a particular odor? Tina sat very close to Cooper so would have known. Thanks, Georger

If you have a specific question regarding something he said then quote it here and I will try to clarify what he said or be more specific. We covered a lot of ground in just a short time doing that article. REPLY> Ok. Thanks for the opportunity. Doug writes: "In 1971, Duane Weber's emotional and physical health were failing. He was on the verge of separating from his fifth wife and had been diagnosed with kidney disease; he was not expected to live past 50. " (He was 47) Duane had polycystic kideney disease, PKD ? Please explain how a 47 year old man already involved in a family breakup and diagnosed with polycystic kidney disease (PKD) at some location in the USA, has the energy to travel much less to hijack an aeroplane? That is some tall order! Was Duane on dialysis? When did he finally go on dialysis or was there a transplant, or a misdiagnosis? Now. PDK often presents as a genetic condition from a more general genetic abnormality resulting in poly(many) cystic growths in many of the major organs (kidney, liver, stomach-mucosa, brain . . .). There are specific chemical associations thought to induce the condition, as some may know. Was Duane's form Autosomal Dominant or Recessive? In either case there are definate genetic markers. The FBI has partial dna profiles for Cooper. I wonder if they looked for Duane's PK markers in the Cooper profiles they have, given that they dismissed Duane from their repertoir of suspects in 1998? Lastly, PKD and psychogenesis have a strong correlation, as hormonal levels cycle and blood chemistry changes (as in any kidney condition). Symptomologies range from minor mood swings and irritability all the way to psychotic disorders including dissassociative states, where a person may lose conginitive stasis, not know who they are and even project they are (or wish they were)someone else. This is even more likely in patients who present with a previous background of psychic issues & personality dissorder. Today, most physicians will explain the full panoply of symptoms patients and their families can expect. In the past that was less common than it is today due to the more wholistic approaches taught in medical schools today. Onset symptoms may include anti social behaviors before victims and their families become aware of the condition's existence. I leave these notes for your consideration - Perhaps we could bring a professional here to answer specific questions as it may apply in Duane's and your case. Georger

Reply: OK, will keep looking. The collector has many old parking tickets from airports. Thanks for the info. Georger

What does my being a real estate agent have to do with S---. NOTE I did not become a real estate agent until after his death. Duane did NOT spend 23 yrs in prison unless you know something I don't know. ==================== Until I became a real estate agent I had no need for computer skills other than data input and output for accts. receivables. ======================= What you have just stated is liable - I have not to my memory revealed that information accept to the FBI. If I don't find that in print - bet a Nickle you are in trouble. =================== Ann is not a handwriting expert and there was a complete sentence on another page. She thinks it looks like his handwriting and so do I and others who have seen this. =================== I have NO knowledge of the FBI interviewing Duane's brother. ======================== People change and I don't have to like what he was to have loved the man I was married to. Everyone liked Duane and that is exactly how they described him - Likeable. ======================== Do NOT judge until you are judged...Guess you got my Nickle joke? REPLY: Then read it for yourself. You certified the accuracy of this US News & World report last week. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/doubleissue/mysteries/cooper.htm Good luck Jo. Georger

REPLY> Im not suggesting shunning Jo - God knows that will never happen here. There will always be an audience for her, somewhere. Jo has been so prolific and forceful about stating "her" case it makes me wonder if it didnt surpass Duane, long ago. Somewhere in Jo's blitzkriege the reality of Duane got lost - the actual criminal. And therein lies the only true link, to Ralph Himmelsbach who intentionally or unintentionally gave this matter status (without which Jo might never have been what she has become). Ralph Himmelsbach stated the link he thought he saw, as quoted from the US News & World report: ". Retired FBI agent Himmelsbach believes the skyjacker must certainly have had a criminal record, military training, and familiarity with the Northwest. U.S. News has confirmed that Duane Weber served in the Army in the early 1940s. He also did time in at least six prisons from 1945 to 1968 for burglary and forgery. One prison was McNeil Island in Steilacoom, Wash.–20 miles from the Seattle-Tacoma airport. " It was Duane's long carreer criminal record which peaked Himmelsbach's interest. By any accounting, Duane's is a serious criminal record with ample evidence of adult personality disorder formation. He marries Jo, his six or seventh wife. It starts with Duaner wrapping a $100 bill around a champagne bottle and presenting it Jo in the lounge of an airport. (The lounge lizzards meet?) Without Himmelsbach's certification, as it were, we probably would not be discussing this today because it would not have received traction in the media. I mean the plot is superficial, the actors poor, and no ending in site. It's not a commercially viable sitcom! But somehow, somewhere, the whole thing became respectable. Himmelsbach again was at the core of this judging Jo to be credible, innocent, and only after the truth. What was Himmelsbach thinking!? Now, Im going to give Jo the benefit of the doubt and join Snow in posting no more on this very tedious topic of Mom-Jo and Husband-Duane. Maybe Nancy Grace will take it up next! Georger

The amazing thing, Orange1 (as you've pointed out before), is that we're supposed to ignore the places where the memories are wrong, but pay attention where they happen to be right.. i.e. the ones that are "right" are more truthful, somehow. And when Jo is "right" she's smart and has massive memory banks. When she's wrong, she's just a dumb blonde being attacked. And we're not supposed to be exposed to all of Duane's life and personality, just the cherry picked factoids Jo has assembled in the 12 foot wall. The sad thing: Eventually that 12 foot wall that took 12 years to assemble, will just be thrown in the trash heap. Cause it has zero value. (edit) the previous cooper ticket photo from the fbi doesn't have any date detail I can see. I attached a snap from a Carr video, but it's too fuzzy. I can't tell where a date would be on that ticket. Does anyone know? The full ticket is visible but fuzzy in the attached. (edit) 2nd shot from fbi shows date field. (edit) attached the fbi shot again. The date field seems empty? people agree? (there's a field labelled date but empty) ------------------------------------------------ Reply> Unless "readers" are suffering memory loss, we have been down this road before, many times. A claim or claims are made. Claims examined. Claims are modified or collapse often with an angry response from the claimant, ie. 'you just dont undrstand', 'Im sick and under stress', 'you werent there I was', 'I know things you dont know'... at the end of this cycle its 'poor me the victim', 'I know who you are and you were always making life difficult for me', and 'Im not going to post here any more'. This is immediately followed by: 'I have new claims ... and this time the evidence will be documented but not here (for you jerks)'. Does that about sum it up? By any account (this side of senility) the accounting is shabby at best, or possibly fraudulent at worst. It is not unlike certain realty ploys. Sell or rent a house then deny all knowledge and any responsibility for anything wrong with one parting statement: "buyer beware - its YOUR fault!". Jo was a realty agent in real life when married to Duane, a person sent to prison for burglary and fraud and forgery who did time in 6 prisons between 1945-1968. Was married six or seven times. These are actual facts. Twenty three years of Duane's life factually spent in prison. Jo's late life computer skills are probably related to the skills she developed early as a secretary then later as a realty agent, while married to Duane. Who speaks for the Duane-Cooper association: Frank Bender - criminal forensic reconstructionist who worked for the FBI (20 years?) - confirms physical traits, or did he?. Ann Faass who worked with Duane Weber, confirms Duane's handwriting in a book - one word of which Jo has posted - the printed noncursive word "Toutle". Jo Webers own accounts which rely on surprise and lack of knowledge, but certainty all at the same time. "I know what I saw!" Himmelsbach: who Jo contacted and H finally convinced his colleagues at the FBI to open a file on Duane, and they interview Jo, one of Duane's six or seven former wives, and Duane's brother. So far as I know, Ralph Himmelsbach who Jo describes as a 'confident', has never issued a formal public statement in this whole affair, outside of telling Mr. Pasternak at the US News & World Report that 'Duane is one of the best candidates we have ever had . . . ' For me, the whole story is Subprime riding on Credit with Jo saying every now and then, "I did not realize". The whole case floats on innocence and "I did not realise". Duane himself a known forger and thief and manipulator and conspirator who spent 23 years of his life in prison but in Jo's remake is somehow tolerably 'innocent and likeable' ? It makes me wonder why Himmelsbach really wanted a file opened? Because he thought Duane was Cooper, or for some other reason? Whatever is going on, it's way over my pay grade! The whole thing begins with Jo-the-innocent-victim- wife-#7 feining lack of knowledge and surprise .... that her beloved poor husband was a professional criminal with deep pathology? It's a role fit for Greta Garbo (see attached). And I think we are ... Mickey Mouse. Georger

The SeaTac was on what looked like an old parking ticket (the type they used to give at the theater) A STUB NOT not a plane ticket. The airline Ticket was in a box of items - for 1990 (this is the yr we had an argument over the taxes and everything was thrown in a file box and needed to be sorted out.) Other things were in that box and that airline ticket was one of the things that had no place there. It was 1994 we were going thur that box and the first time I saw the airline ticket. It was a Northwest Airline ticket. I don't know how difficult it is to tell a ticket (probably parking) stub from and airline ticket - I do not see where your confusion is. That old 1971 airline ticket had no place in that box. I never saw the parking stub except in 1990. Before they ever showed what these items looked like in the media I had described them in detail...color and all. I am talking about what may have been a parking ticket (stub) with Sea Tac on it. The airline Ticket was a separate item seen at a different time. Jo said, on Nov 28, 2007, 9:21 PM "There was a Sea-Tac stub (like a movie stub) it was a blue/grey color. I have thought that might have been a parking sub. Cannot remember the color of the print on it - seems like the numbers were red" ---------------------------------------------------- Reply> Would the parking stub have looked anything like this? Its not quite what you describe but pretty close. This stub came from a collector. Note* it is from 1974, not 1971, but the collector says the same basic stubs were being used from 1970 on at Seatac. Georger

Waohh! In other words, you are not being entertained?

This kind of thing is why I advised him NOT to go public - because he doesn't know what it will do to his life - the third degrees, tearing apart of this statement - word for word - and to be taunted and made fun of. I think I gave him good advise. First there was one and now there are two. Find my wife and you will find me. Perhaps none of you know what this means - except that someone has been looking in the wrong place. If the witness decides to go public that will be his choice - I just want him to know what he would face and the stress it can cause. Some of us older folks are not up to that kind of stress. Reply. which gives you the lisence to cause it in others? Get professional help, Jo. Georger

1) I'm bummed I wasn't accused of being part of the conspiracy. What's georger got that I don't got? 2) 'decision' implies there are options. I can't imagine what the options are. Go to the press? That would be really cool. I'm really curious how the press would react to you now. Sue? Sue who? Write your congressman? Build a website and flame off against the world? There are 100s out there already, with all sorts of conspiracy theories. You're just in the noise. If you're going to play poker, you always have to be prepared for someone to call your bluff. I'm prepared for you to call my bluff...i.e. there might actually be a witness. But then I'm simply right about the past not having any credible evidence, and the future: possibly. I'm not sure what happens with your bluff? The Dow drops 800 pts? Someone Jo, you either don't understand the benefit of cooperation, or you've somehow gotten your way with bluster in the past a lot, or you really don't have anything, and the whole thing is just about blustering around etc, trying to get people to chat about this thing. 3) Hey: did no one check the Wikipedia history? It's the only wikipedia entry I've ever created. Only one person can be first. And that one's mine. 4) Queen to queens level 3? trying hard to get in the conspiracy Reply> Before this is done, Jo will be begging to have her witness presented here! Witnesses beget witnesses - like rabbits. Smile. Georger

By the way to anyone who cares - the FBI will have their signed and notarized statement from the night clerk in a few days. As I have said this is between the witness and the FBI and it will not be made public in this forum. REPLY> The Phoenix has risen. The FBI will be given ample time to make a response - if no response is made then the decision will be made what to do regarding the statement. He wants to go public with it but I recommended that he not do that because of what I myself have experience 1st hand. REPLY> I thought you just said: " As I have said this is between the witness and the FBI and it will not be made public in this forum. " There you go again! And you already just made it "public in this forum". This is already a no-pull. And, by the way, if Cooper was a no-pull how could he possibly have been at some hotel and been Duane !? Close the window and buy a coat, Jo. It's going to be a long hard winter. Georger & Lao Tse

QuoteGeorgers statement regarding my actions in forging forward on my own: He said I was seeking publicity and fouling up the works Reply> I didnt say that. My exact words were: "You became a magnet for people seeking publicity and fouling up the works. " As a youth I visited a professor of Chinese studies and asked him to explain the working of the I-Ching. My interest was in coming to know how a primitive people had come to understand nature so well and knew so many of the basic principles of Nature and Human Bhavior. The origins of the I-Ching far predates anything in the middle East (the Torah or Gilgamesh or Baal for example) or Western science. The professor caught on immediately what I was after and began to laugh. This took me a-back. So I stood there like a complete moron watching the professor laugh, and sinking with every passing moment - finally he said: "You missunderstand I think. What do you do in the winter?" Totally confused I said, "I dont know". He laughed even harder. "What do you do when winter comes?", he asked. I replied, "I really don't know!". He placed his hand on my shoulder and said, "You close the window and buy a coat". So I blurted: "well what about the correspondence between the natural cycles in the I-Ching and Quantum Resonance?" "What the fuck are you talking about!?", he exclaimed. "What in hell is Quantum Resonance. That has nothing to do with the I-Ching. Where did you ever get such a crazy idea?" "The I-Ching is a book of common sense and nothing more.", he said. As in, "look before you leap" ... and dont yank chords before getting airborn" ?" Got it? Georger

I know who you are now and you know that I did not go public until I was forced to do so because the FBI ignored me. Reply> well. . . you finally have me. I knew in time you would. As I see this, Jo, you brought some of this on yourself. You became a magnet for people seeking publicity and fouling up the works. You know what (our) original advice was: "Keep it close to your vest. Remain silent. Be patient". But you went ahead on your own and nobody appreciated that - because the process was in motion, whether you knew it or not. There was always more involved, and other people to consider. a prior agent were aware of this man and did NOT once attempt to interview him while he was in the states. They have had almost 8 yrs to talk to him and have not done so?????????? Reply> ... so far as you know or ever knew. Just because he contacted you does not mean he fully trusted you, or anyone else for that matter. He had his own life. Nobody can force people to testify if they dont want to. And there were other facts that surfaced which you aren't even aware of. You wanted my perspective and now you have it. Have a good day. Georger

one of the problems with a large centralized law enforcement agency, in a big country, is that they are constrained with how they react to "kooks"..i.e. kooks take bandwidth out of the system, much like Joe McCain's 911 call. And bandwidth is fixed, cause us taxpayers only want to pony up so much for certain things. People get adamant the "system" is supposed to react to them in a certain way, and then the thing shifts to how the "system" interacts with people, as opposed to solving the initial problem. Look at poor Larry having to deal with Jo. And all the poor agents before him with the same problem. The one nice thing about an anonymous open forum, is that while we have fewer investigative powers, we can tell each other to f* off, with no repercussions. Here, we can encourage kooks of all ages and sizes, and vet them fairly rapidly...it would be worth a bunch of false positives, to get just one clue. On anything hard, it's all about building a process that can tolerate a bunch of false positives and false negatives, and yet still get the right answer. An instance of scaling up a process: The technology is easily available, database wise, to file and cross reference 100,000 tips, and maybe 100,000 suspects, with maybe just 1-3 humans supporting. It doesn't sound like Seattle FBI does this, since 1000 suspects is really nothing to brag about. In fact by admitting just to investigating 1000, you can see why Cooper wasn't found. I was doing rough estimates based on the population of Or and Wa back then, and I figured there needed to be at least an order of magnitude more suspects in the net, to be reasonably certain of finding Cooper, if he was in OR and WA...i.e. 10,000 suspects. So, in short, I don't think kooks are the problem. I think people use that as an excuse for poor process management. reply - In 71 one could never have built that kind of data base, with the data processing environment available then. Imagine the manpower (shoe leather) required! That was where my friend was coming from. Today is an entirely different story. Data bases are expanding exponentially. Retrieval and cross referencing algorythms are becoming sophisticated. Long gone are the days when a single person solves a riddle - things are done by committee today. One person's expertise feeds into the next person's, and so on. Systems and network builders reign supreme. Once data is assembled it doesnt take very long to generate a list of weighted correlations to explore. As long as the basic evidence is kept intact and well-preserved, technology and people will catch up to it. I am very optimistic. Georger

QuoteI scanned Jo's posts, but there was no new evidence in them, right? (edit) Safe: I'm still wondering why you believe the night clerk story. There may be a future story, but you seem to believe a story based on past info of dubious origin. I'm still wondering where you got the "late wake up call" piece of info. Was that from Jo? I can't find it anywhere. I hate missing part of a story. REPLY> Following 11-24-71 there was a massive search. Many stories/anecdotes flowed from this. For months following 11-24-71 you would have been hard-pressed not to hear a story, be told a story, et cetera, especially if you lived in Washington or the area around Portland, or you had some direct contact with the people and events transpiring then. My guess is Safe's account may come from one of those original stories and/or an original witness? Except for her relationship to Duane later, Jo Weber has no direct relationship with that place or period. Jo was living on the east coast far removed and totally unaware. And, Safecracking may not have even been born yet. Neither Jo nor Safecracking was directly impacted by the events then. That would come later, by their own accounts. I also wonder if any of the other Cooper candidates has ever taken to the Internet to prove their case? Why do these people seek out publicity? Dont any of them and their sponsors ever shun publicity and attention? Why havent any of these people ever been proscecuted for giving false testimony? Guess Im just old-fashioned. One of my concerns all along, expressed by others very early (in 1971), has been that the large number of cranks and kooks and false confessors "coming out of the woodwork", would actually drive away credible informants and helpers, who might otherwise get involved and be helpful. We were all young then - that was the opinion of another young person working for the FBI back then, addressed to me directly. And I can back that up! Georger

Let me establish something right NOW - I recieved a call from this night clerk in 2001 after the Oregonian did an article - this was the first time the night clerk had seen a picture of Duane. .

Was reading Jeremiah once and when I hit "it is good ....to wait for the salvation of the Lord Adonai" the phone rang. My mother calling. Went back picked up the Torah and read the same line and phone rang... my brother. This went on seven times. Same line, read it, and phone rings (all to see if Im ok). I go back after call #7 and pick up the book and read very slowly the same line, but I stop at the Lord Adonai. I wait. Phone doesnt ring. I wait some more. No phone ring, so what the heck and I shout out the last word ADONAI! and the damned phone rang ... eight times in succession... was the same Chinese girl as with the first call and she says: "ooooooooo me have wrong number". I went out and bought John Poulos "Innumeracy" the next day. Solved that problem.

QuoteBut georger, you agree it's b.s. right? REPLY> I about died when I read this above... what I want to know is who is the schmuck they got to post it!

Turns out I know about this ... what caught my attention was: niteclerk Aug 23, 2006 Location: St Charles Mo. Posts: 1 D B Cooper /Duayne Weber/john collins ------------------------------------------------------------ I can verify that Mr. Weber/aka dbcooper was at the Rodeway Inn on the evening of Nov 24th 1971 and registered under the name of john collins. I identified him to the FBI on the following day after he had hijacked the aircraft and jumped into history. I was the front desk clerk on duty that thanksgiving evening. My recollection of that particular individual was enhanced greatly while being questioned by the FBI and other law enforcement officials. I was shown photos of many individuals and asked to pick out the one who I believed to be the one who I checked in the prior evening. I was then shown several composites with and without disquise or dark glasses. I had no problem matching the correct person to the right photo. The investigating officer asked for the registration card for the evening of the 24th and took the card with him. I only heard from them once more a few days later to verify what I had stated, never to hear from them again. I have been in touch with Jo Weber since 1997 to this day and I am still 100% convinced that Duayne Weber and DBCOOPER are one and the same." That's pretty specific. George

Thanks Safe, appreciate this. Georger

Hey thanks Snow. Here's another resource: http://home.comcast.net/~a0000003/q703_frames.html but it does not seem to be functioning today. You click up a district and get relevant technical geology plus Ph etc.. I just thought maybe Safe had done some actual sampling at T_Bar. What we are seeking is baselines in the area around T-Bar. T-Bar specifically was skewed (71-80) due to the cattle. Have no idea what it is today. Its just one of those tedious things to be done as 377 keeps insisting on "results results". Thanks,