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Everything posted by georger
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==================== Not from me you don't. I just think if is funny as all get out. He went to the bathroom before he put the chute on. WHAT did he do in that bathroom? if it had been 2008 they would have to look for DNA. ::::: I thought it was kind of funny too. What did he do in the Lav if he had a chute on? How did he? Damned good thing he didnt ask for a snowmobile suit, I guess. George
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Cruise Ships have been known to make Dumps at Sea.Maybe Northwest made a DUMP at 10,000 feet.... The devil made me do it.
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There are indications that he was going into the bathroom for a long time. ::::: Then he was traveling faster than the speed of light. I knew this would come up. Guys over fifty sometimes have this problem.
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:::: I emailed the website owner too - he may know how, when, and where the 11/24/71 sked was made, printed by who, etc.
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"The Wow! signal was a strong, narrowband radio signal detected by Dr. Jerry R. Ehman on August 15, 1977, while working on a SETI project at the Big Ear radio telescope of the Ohio State University. The signal bore expected hallmarks of potential non-terrestrial and non-solar system origin. It lasted for 72 seconds, the full duration Big Ear observed it, but has not been detected again. It has been the focus of attention in the mainstream media when talking about SETI results. Amazed at how closely the signal matched the expected signature of an interstellar signal in the antenna used, Ehman circled the signal on the computer printout and wrote the comment "Wow!" on its side. This comment became the name of the signal." ::::: There was a previous wow signal. Look up Jocelyn Bell or Susan J. Bell and the discovery of pulsars. Prior to this no one had seen a powerful cosmic source with precise regularity ... for several days people seriously thought it might be artificial and it definately was not Earth-based. Nothing on Earth at the time had the capability of generating such a signal.
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REPLY> Cooper never requested Reno.
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On 3-31-08 SafecrackingPLF said (post #727): "I will be interested to read the Hancock statement to see if Cooper was harnessing up BEFORE speaking to Rataczak..." We know Hancock said she saw Cooper chuting up even before 305 had left SEA, but what was the exchange between Hancock and Rataczack? What did they talk about prior to Hancock leaving the plane? Georger
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QuoteThe FOIA reveals little conversation between Cooper and Tina, yet we all know that more had to have been said in the time they had together. SO MUCH has been removed from that file that it is useless. If it was Tina that spoke to me on the phone that day a few yrs ago - more had to have been said. I don't remember the exact words, but she indicated he was a very sad person - I would think it not possible to form such an opinion regarding a persons state of mind unless there was more conversation than the public has been told REPLY> Let me add some perspective. We are spectators, as is Mr. Cook, in this whole matter. Georger
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It's possible, 305, as flown on 11/24/71 never showed up on a schedule they printed, although that seems unlikely. So we're guessing a new schedule, maybe active 9/1/71 or 10/1/71 or 11/1/71 or the week of thanksgiving should have 305 as reported flown. The stop in Missoula is in news accounts. I guess we don't know for sure 305 really stopped in Missoula. 305 definitely went from Portland to Seattle though on 11/24/71. and that's not in the 8/1/71 sked. (Missoula isn't in the 8/1/71 sked either). Spokane is in the 8/1/71 sked, so as reported in news accounts, 305 probably stopped in Spokane before Portland. I've mentioned "why not start in Spokane?" before. REPLY> Again, it would be good to know when and where sked changes were made, posted, and printed. My guess is it all came from Minneapolis HQ after communicating with each regional office. Some person or persons were in charge of schedule making. I believe Ckret has spoken to this before - hardware stores and many people/places in the Portland area were visited trying to link Cooper to a purchase (bomb parts) or a place/event. That turned up nothing. No cars, no taxis, no parking etc connecting Cooper. If it turned out the 11/24 flight was a late addition with no prior advertisement except as you walked up to the counter on 11/24 and asked about flights, that could help define Cooper's actions and level of planning. George
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yeah... which is why there was a big debate about "no accent" which (IIRC) most seemed to accept as meaning "no identifiable regional accent" (i.e. not no "foreign" accent). Prove it! Prove your distinction. Attitude is not Proof. Find us one thing anyone on the planet has ever said or discovered or published as a study in the entire history of the Universe that proves your assertion. Hey, calm down I didn't "assert" anything... I was pointing out a previous discussion had come to a different conclusion. You have come to a different one, and that's cool, and in the absence of a recording of his voice we have no way of knowing which is right...like so much else in this case. Now go take 10 deep breaths, or something REPLY> I can hardly believe Tina didnt say more about what she and Cooper talked about, if they did talk over the hours. Maybe its in her interview notes? Georger
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yeah... which is why there was a big debate about "no accent" which (IIRC) most seemed to accept as meaning "no identifiable regional accent" (i.e. not no "foreign" accent). Prove it! Prove your distinction. Attitude is not Proof. Find us one thing anyone on the planet has ever said or discovered or published as a study in the entire history of the Universe that proves your assertion. It boils down to personal opinion. But here is why I pursued this, not for self vidication that I am right and you are WRONG, but for some larger purpose and association which might in the scheme of things bear fruit and lead to something beyond mere "personal opinions and attitudes", for a change. We were discussing flight skeds. It was found by Snowmman that prior to 8/1/71 there was no PDX to SEA flite at the time Cooper took his flight. Coop[s flight was a late (perhaps special holiday) addition. So, where did Cooper LEARN of the new flight sked or was his choice of that flight pure coincidence? My thought was he might have learned of the sked in Minneapolis if skeds are made and printed in Minneapolis. I realise this is a longshot but what the heck! Maybe he lived at Minneapolis? Maybe he worked for NWA at Minneapolis. He did say "get the plane on the road" WHICH MAY have some link to midwestern idioms, but since this is NOT a Midwestern idiom then obvious this line of thinking is wrong. Undoubtedly Cooper learned of the sked change at Portland the minute he walked in to buy a ticket. He got the enxt flight available, that is all that happened. He was intending to take the 5:00pm flight but got the 3:00pm flight instead. He didnt care which flight he took. Cooper had not done any prior research. Just got lucky. Cooper was going to hijack a turkey vulture and milk a cobra if necessary on that particular day ... if somebody would bail him out of his financial problems and make him a hero in the media. All from: "get this plane on the road" ! Thanks! Case solved. Georger
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Reply> Thanks Snowmman. This helps. Georger
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NEW - Flood of 1977. SafecrackingPLF and others commented about a flood along the Columbia in 1977. One chart (below) did not seem to confirm that. A return to the topic today yielded the quote below. Anyone have more? Water-Supply Paper 2502 Summary of Significant Floods in the United States, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands, 1970 Through 1989 Summary of Significant Floods, 1970 Through 1989, by Year http://ks.water.usgs.gov/Kansas/pubs/reports/wsp.2502.sum77.html COLUMBIA FLOOD OF 1977 - A drought that had plagued the Pacific Northwest throughout the year was broken with November and December storms. The storms caused large amounts of rain and flooding in three separate events during the 2 months. Twelve Washington counties were declared Federal disaster areas (Washington State Department of Community, Trade and Economy, 1995) (U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, 1978c). Northern Washington was affected by the December 2-3 flood, which resulted in five deaths and $14.8 million in damages. Southern Washington and northern Oregon experienced flooding on three different occasions. Flooding occurred in the Cowlitz River Basin in southwest Washingon and along the Columbia River in Oregon on November 25, December 2-3, and December 13-15. Flooding in the Willamette River Basin of Oregon occurred on November 25 and December 13-15. These floods caused $16.2 million in damages in the lower Columbia River Basin and along coastal drainages in Oregon (U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, 1978c). Selected References for 1977 Paulson, R.W., Chase, E.B., Roberts, R.S., and Moody, D.W., compilers 1991, National water summary, 1988-89-Hydrologic events and floods and droughts: U.S. Geological Survey Water-Supply Paper 2375, 591 p. ____1978c, Post flood report, November-December 1977 floods in Portland District, Oregon and Washington: Portland District, Oregon, 106 p.
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----------------------------------------------------- REPLY> But I do make that association, but Im Midwestern since birth. For Cooper it expresses his frustration/anxiety. It's clear from the context of "get this plane on the road" (again, it's in the transcript) that he meant he wanted things to move faster. But the midwest surely does not have a monopoly on the phrase... "get this show on the road" (assuming that's where it's from and makes sense to me it does) has long been used here, halfway around the world from there. As I understand, the phrase originates from travelling circuses/carnivals (which by definition went to lots of places ) from travelling circuses/carnivals ... in Chicago area home of several large circus companies in the early 1900's. Was picked up and used by traveling theatre groups also - nevertheless your point is very well taken. No single locus. Everywhere as an idiom, in 1971?
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George You've forgotten where Tina was from? Not midwest. SE PA, right? Remember I posted the newspaper article where they talked to her mother the night of the hijack. ----------------------------------------------------- REPLY: I didnt forget. Tina was from PA? Thats not exactly Midwestern. So maybe the best we can get is that there was no distinctive 'regional' accent, as Orange suggests. Any time you see me making a screwup or over reaching dont hesitate to point it out - Im receptive and its very valuable to me. That goes for everyone here in correcting me - well almost everyone! ------------------------------------------------------- also: I was looking at use of the phrase "get this plane on", followed by whatever. It seems "get this plane on the ground" is used, when pilots are panicked? I always wondered if "get this plane on the road" was a reference to getting the plane onto the runway. I don't know why people make the leap from "plane on the road" to "show on the road". There's nothing that would say to me that if someone says the former, they mean the latter. ----------------------------------------------------- REPLY> But I do make that association, but Im Midwestern since birth. For Cooper it expresses his frustration/anxiety.
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yeah... which is why there was a big debate about "no accent" which (IIRC) most seemed to accept as meaning "no identifiable regional accent" (i.e. not no "foreign" accent). REPLY> No doubt Tina knew more than she said, or was asked. She probably was responding to someone's question: "did he have any accent?" But she spent hours with her conversing. Now if Tina had been an expert on phonology (like Jeff Nunberg, CalTech) a small treatise probably would have been written: 'Dialect Variation and Consonental Drift of a Hijacker'! And under the circumstances, Tina and Coop were not sitting there discussing family history, I presume. You take what you get in these matters. But, if Tina had sat down with a linguist she might have been able to provide some clues. Everybody is from somewhere ... Cooper is reported to have said: "Get this plane on the road" which is a derrivative of "Get the show on the road" which oddly enough may have its origins in the Chicago area of the early 1900's ( a linguist reports). But its a common phase many people use in many regions. There are regional differences. One cannot hep but wonder however, was Cooper from the Midwest, the Chicago area, Minneapolis . . . If his physical description is valid then he obviously had an ethnic lineage which was not Irish or Scandinavian. Given that he was second or third generation something. George
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midwestern accent? i thought the eye (ear)witness descriptions were all "no accent".. we had a debate about what "no accent" means some time ago... REPLY> Everyone has an accent (phonetic signature). Midwestern 'accent' is an accent. (regional classes associated with Midwestern speech). She might have meant: 'I heard no Foreign accent'. But very likely if Coopper had said "Y'all git dem grits' she would have said, "He doesnt come from 'round here!'. I used the word ruminating because in fact Ive been trying to get barns painted before winter and stepping in cowshit a lot lately ... George
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we need more flight schedules I guess, from closer to 11/71. I noticed they had published a special schedule for when the pilots were striking, in 1970. So schedules did change. Don't know if there were special holiday schedules. Don't know if they printed new schedules every month, even? Am I'm not sure if we're going to be able to identify which flights were 707 vs 727 from the timetables in '71. We can tell that they weren't 747. (they bragged about the 747 flights) But knowing when flight 305 started adding the final leg to Seatac (from PDX) would be interesting (between 8/1/71 and 11/24/71). I'm also curious about when the stop in Missoula got added. (edit) I added the departures from Portland and the departures from Great Falls (which shows 305) from the timetable. This backs up everything I said before. The first two show the 8/1/71 effective date. (edit) added some of the flight itineraries for Northwest..including 305. (edit) It appears that Cooper could have flown first class for just $25. But he decided to go with the $20 coach fare. (all the portland to seattle flights then available were that price) REPLY> I wonder who set the schedules, and where? My guess is Minneapolis. This trully is a midwestern airline. Look at the route map. He picked the west- most route (a north-south short leg) removed from the midwestern heartland, the east coast urban area, and a route over remote country. He didnt pick Minneapolis as his starting place or he could have gone directly south-west ... funny he asked to go to Mexico City (from SEA!) when he had these other choices but require a different start point. He picked an area he was familiar with. But, his midwestern acent, a midwestern airline, skeds coming out of Minneapolis??, ... its tempting to add this up ..... Im just ruminating... G
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Yeah it's odd. Remember though the normal timetable may have changed by 11/71. On the one hand, you could say Cooper just seemed to walk in and say "give me the next flight to Seattle"...and it just happened to be the last one arriving in Seattle before 5:00, and it was special/new, since 8/71 at least. (edit) But he knew he had to get the money from the banks before 5:00??? or did he? You've mentioned him scouting the route. The likely two planes were going to be 707 or 727. Either he didn't care, or he checked it out. There's some myth about him asking at the counter, but I don't think so? It's interesting that back then Cooper didn't have to worry about being overbooked around Thanksgiving...no advance ticketing needed. He wasn't worried about a seat? And the whole Washington, Minneapolis, Great Falls, Missoula, Spokane, Portland, Seattle itinerary for 305 bugs me. It was the last leg of a very long flight itinerary. If he was from Seattle, or wanted the chutes from Seattle, why didn't he hijack a plane from Spokane to Seattle? (I'll have to check those, but some existed). Why go to Portland? So he wouldn't be recognized? It makes more sense that he was from Portland, and Seattle was the only logical choice. But why risk being recognized at PDX (in the future?) I'm wondering if Cooper was really from neither Portland, nor Seattle area. (edit) it would be interesting if most of the other PDX to Seattle flights were 707, not 727. Don't have that info. If they were all 727, that would mean I don't know what. (edit) Or why didn't he just hijack any plane out of PDX, and say "we're going to Seattle to get some stuff" I guess then you have to worry about other planes in the air in your way? Better to pick one that's already going where you want? REPLY: I have to believe he picked a plane he thought (or knew) he could get out of which could also be configured for a successful jump. To me that selects a 727. (Sluggo may have other thoughts?) I suggested long ago passenger lists for the PDX- SEATAC route be searched to look for a phony name which did not connect to a real person, on the premise he is picking a route to hijack. The sudden switch to a flight that will put him out the door but in the dark in early evening leaving time to maneuver and escape on the ground, this makes 305 that afternoon the perfect flight. But how long before the flight had it been published? I cant accept him chosing this flight was an accident. It's too perfect for his agenda. He new the area. He knew Tacoma from the air. He knew something about the likely turn-around time on the ground at SEA (as Sluggo pointed out and explained here long ago). He knew McChord was there and parachutes would be available. He knew that on Thanksgiving Eve after a long day for the crew and everyone else, on a routine 30 minute last flight milk run, people's guard would be down expecting nothing but a break and relaxation ahead ... and he strikes? His 'bomb' was pre-assembled. His note pre-written in his pocket as he got on the plane (unless Ckret says otherwise). I would actually prefer this was a coincidence or put together quickly just before the flight - that would explain a few things. But the facts say premeditated. Great work Snowmman!!! Georger
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QuoteGot my 8/71 Northwest Orient System Timetable. It raises a couple of questions. (it might say Cooper didn't plan it in 8/71?) First, it feels eerie thumbing thru it..I picture Cooper flipping thru one very similar. But not this one. While 8/71 is very close to 11/71, it appears that it's not close enough. Flight 305 in 8/71, went direct to Spokane then Portland, from Great Falls. No stop at Seatac. They must have changed 305 by 11/24/71? Or maybe a special holiday schedule? REPLY> Not an established route but a new or special (one time only?) route. This may help explain why there weren't too many on board, and it adds to the sense of vulnerability of the flight especially if Cooper had been observing this route and looking for an opportunity. George
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REPLY> Thanks Sluggo! Received!! Georger
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Photos (especially aerial photos) of Tina Bar in the 1960's would be welcome ... from any source. Thanks, George
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Quotethe pink canopy was originally white when in military inventory. this one was apparently dyed in in its civilian life REPLY> We tracked this down. You will notice the chute dye left some areas and cords white - Georger
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QuoteThe little politics quips reminded me of a thought I had but didn't post much on. It's easy to fall into a trap of thinking Cooper might have been a left/liberal kind of guy..i.e. the folklore of winning against the system. Or a guy with no social/political views..just wanted the money. But in reading thru Hubbard, I was surprised to see him say that contrary to myth, many of the skyjackers were more right wing conservative types. I don't know if the numbers still hold that way. But it got me looking for right wing groups. As I mentioned before, the Minutemen had been trying to be active in the Seattle area there, with a number of arrests around 1968 around planned bank robberies/bombings. I was always surprised that H. thought it made sense to say Cooper might have been a career criminal looking to make one last big score. And I still have a hard time with the idea of "it was just about the money". I guess I'm a "grudge+money" fanboy. REPLY> I dont know what would have lead H to that conclusion. I would have taken the opposite view: A nobody looking to make his "first & last big score" before age ended the opportunity, after years of gestating. Hijacking is special - not bank robbery. The risks are infnitely greater with the former & when you add parachuting then the risks go 'sky-high'. The public acknowledged the difference in their reaction. The only thing better in the public mind would have been if somebody had dropped from a satellite and hijacked an airplane - impossible. There was a strong sense of the impossible in the public mind in what Cooper did at the time. Law enforcement and aviation would have seen it differently, but to the public this was in a class of its own at the time. (This is not my idea. I am almost quoting an FBI agent I knew at the time and what he said). There is also a difference between Reactionary & Liberal activists worth noting. They tend to follow a differernt life track. Liberals are active earlier and settle down by their mid forties. Reactionaries are active later, as a rule, and their activism may even increase as they age. I think your reference to the Minutemen has merit. It is exactly that kind of environment out of which an older activist could emerge - to take independent action within a small group of conspirators. The Michigan group and McVey are good examples. In addition reactionary groups are usually difficult to penetrate vs liberal groups whose members you can know by simply attending a public meeting. In any event Snowmman, I think your observations are well taken...
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REPLY: Agree with all - - just pondering here late Friday night w. Turner Classic Movies on. I remain convinced Cooper scouted the route to some extent. (but no direct evidence he did). I think he picked this route for a reason and he seems to have wanted to bail in WA and maybe close to Seattle. He had an escape plan? I remain astonished because with all the effort the FBI and others put into turning anything up that would connect, nothing apparently connected (or it was missed). This almost suggests a complete outsider coming in to pick an opportunity. He caught everybody off guard and leaves no trace coming or going. How in hell do you do that!? Maybe we have looked for the wrong connections? We have focused on aircraft, aviation, parachuting, and technical skills. Maybe all of that was secondary to this guy and his true skills (and hutzpah) were in other areas. Maybe that is why Cooper comes out as 'middling' in everything technical. As Ckret once said: 'little knowledge a dangerous thing' or as my Gram would have said, "jack of all trades and master of none'. Maybe this guy was actually nothing technical. Maybe he was a voyeur (a watcher) and seeing an opportunity then he decides to walk in and take what he is convinced he can get and escape quickly from? That is almost exactly how the media first portrayed Cooper when this first happened. A Nobody who suddenly does something and becomes a Somebody. The David who smotes Goliath and runs and gets away. This guy knew people and he had made hard estimates about how the system was likely to respond and he didnt press his luck beyond Seattle but bailed. He didnt give people the time to set up a response. Once he was in this and saw firsthand how the system was gearing up while he sits at SEA then he decides to get the hell out as soon as possible. That time he spent sitting at SEA may have changed whatever longer plan he had into deciding to bail asap as soon as airborne, because he saw how the system was slowly gearing up to deal with him. Its all conjecture but I cant help thinking about it - George