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Everything posted by georger
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QuoteThe little politics quips reminded me of a thought I had but didn't post much on. It's easy to fall into a trap of thinking Cooper might have been a left/liberal kind of guy..i.e. the folklore of winning against the system. Or a guy with no social/political views..just wanted the money. But in reading thru Hubbard, I was surprised to see him say that contrary to myth, many of the skyjackers were more right wing conservative types. I don't know if the numbers still hold that way. But it got me looking for right wing groups. As I mentioned before, the Minutemen had been trying to be active in the Seattle area there, with a number of arrests around 1968 around planned bank robberies/bombings. I was always surprised that H. thought it made sense to say Cooper might have been a career criminal looking to make one last big score. And I still have a hard time with the idea of "it was just about the money". I guess I'm a "grudge+money" fanboy. REPLY> I dont know what would have lead H to that conclusion. I would have taken the opposite view: A nobody looking to make his "first & last big score" before age ended the opportunity, after years of gestating. Hijacking is special - not bank robbery. The risks are infnitely greater with the former & when you add parachuting then the risks go 'sky-high'. The public acknowledged the difference in their reaction. The only thing better in the public mind would have been if somebody had dropped from a satellite and hijacked an airplane - impossible. There was a strong sense of the impossible in the public mind in what Cooper did at the time. Law enforcement and aviation would have seen it differently, but to the public this was in a class of its own at the time. (This is not my idea. I am almost quoting an FBI agent I knew at the time and what he said). There is also a difference between Reactionary & Liberal activists worth noting. They tend to follow a differernt life track. Liberals are active earlier and settle down by their mid forties. Reactionaries are active later, as a rule, and their activism may even increase as they age. I think your reference to the Minutemen has merit. It is exactly that kind of environment out of which an older activist could emerge - to take independent action within a small group of conspirators. The Michigan group and McVey are good examples. In addition reactionary groups are usually difficult to penetrate vs liberal groups whose members you can know by simply attending a public meeting. In any event Snowmman, I think your observations are well taken...
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REPLY: Agree with all - - just pondering here late Friday night w. Turner Classic Movies on. I remain convinced Cooper scouted the route to some extent. (but no direct evidence he did). I think he picked this route for a reason and he seems to have wanted to bail in WA and maybe close to Seattle. He had an escape plan? I remain astonished because with all the effort the FBI and others put into turning anything up that would connect, nothing apparently connected (or it was missed). This almost suggests a complete outsider coming in to pick an opportunity. He caught everybody off guard and leaves no trace coming or going. How in hell do you do that!? Maybe we have looked for the wrong connections? We have focused on aircraft, aviation, parachuting, and technical skills. Maybe all of that was secondary to this guy and his true skills (and hutzpah) were in other areas. Maybe that is why Cooper comes out as 'middling' in everything technical. As Ckret once said: 'little knowledge a dangerous thing' or as my Gram would have said, "jack of all trades and master of none'. Maybe this guy was actually nothing technical. Maybe he was a voyeur (a watcher) and seeing an opportunity then he decides to walk in and take what he is convinced he can get and escape quickly from? That is almost exactly how the media first portrayed Cooper when this first happened. A Nobody who suddenly does something and becomes a Somebody. The David who smotes Goliath and runs and gets away. This guy knew people and he had made hard estimates about how the system was likely to respond and he didnt press his luck beyond Seattle but bailed. He didnt give people the time to set up a response. Once he was in this and saw firsthand how the system was gearing up while he sits at SEA then he decides to get the hell out as soon as possible. That time he spent sitting at SEA may have changed whatever longer plan he had into deciding to bail asap as soon as airborne, because he saw how the system was slowly gearing up to deal with him. Its all conjecture but I cant help thinking about it - George
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I see the mere mention of Mayfield has brought that up again. Tell you what: you keep on asking people to prove that Duane Weber wasn't Cooper. Why don't you prove that Mayfield wasn't Cooper? You say that previous discussions dismissed him - I am not entirely convinced yet that he wasn't, and from a couple of PM conversations I have had I know he is still considered a possibility by others (old time jumpers, not authors etc). REPLY> I think Cooper was not known or well-known in the jumping community in WA and OR, and was from out of that area. Mayfield was not Cooper. He strikes me as more the accomplice-type and since he was not seen in the Scholls airfield area or anywhere else in a compromised situation, very likely Cooper is as much a mystery to Mayfield as to the rest of the world. I think Mayfield would have jumped at the chance to sovle this and turn Cooper in to collect a reward, if he could have. That does not mean he wouldnt have had insight to give in this matter and perhaps he did. Mayfield and H got to know each other pretty well. But Mayfield was/is too easy a target - a natural target. He's the wrong personality type to do something like this in his own back yard. Mayfield has always had strong social connections which he values. Cooper probably came from the opposite condition - George
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REPLY: Thanks.
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REPLY: Thank you. Agree. Appreciated. Georger
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Again - fiction and fact - WHERE does the FACTs state he pulled the packing cards out and tossed them on the floor? REPLY> OK you are technically correct. Tina had the instruction sheet(s) - the packing cards were "in" the chutes. Strange turnaround you've done since saying there were no instruction sheets - now you are anexpert! Snowmman you are getting this all messed up. The packing card was something that is packed with the chute telling who packed it (as to my understanding ). The only time a packing card was mentioned was in one of the fiction books. We are ALL aware of the instruction sheet that Tina was given - a packing card in the chute and the instruction sheet Tina had possession of are TWO different animals as I understand it. If I am wrong ok - but you guys (skydivers hashed this out in the other thread or earlier in this one) I had nothing to do with it that information. One is fiction and one is fact. But both are not fact.
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But If Cossey dealt with sport pilot's rigs he might have something like a one page instruction sheet on hand. He might give them out to aerobatic pilots as they must wear parachutes and most have no parachuting experience or formal training. And that's another point. Think of all the emergency parachute jumps, both civilian and military, done since parachutes were invented. More often than not they were successful and more often than not they were done by people who had never jumped before . . . NickD I wasnt there but yours above or something along those lines is my guess and I am assuming the 'cards' were in the NB6's only because Cossey placed them there on purpose at his home. I have three different versions of how the chutes were procured - all versions close in detail. The front packs came from the jump school after hours. Cossey was not there. One of the staff supplied those, pulled them off a shelf and that is how the training pack got thrown in by mistake. Cossey discovered this later because he knew what packs were on the shelves in specific places. Cossey was at home and supplied the 2 NB6 back packs at his home, they were rushed to the airport. Cossey may have thrown the instruction cards in just to be safe, complete, or to cover himself legally ? Only Cossey could explain and Im sure he already has, to someone. . But somebody calls you up and says they want four parachutes in an emergency, so what do you do? From Cossey's viewpoint only God knew where these chutes would wind up and be used, et cetera ... with who being legally liable should anything go wrong. I can see Master Rigger Cossey throwing some instruction cards in ... I would! That Cooper tossed the cards aside saying 'I dont need to read those' (or whatever) means nothing in and of itself. (He also jumped and down like a kid at the sight of $200000 in a bag, in the middle of a hijacking, so Im not prone to give Coop to much credit on the scale of rationality or experience.) The only thing that smacks of experience is Tina's statement that Coop dawned the NB6 with ease as if he had done it before. But, Cooper did not specify anything about the chutes he wanted. Nada. (He did not ask for V23 either). The fact that he had to cut lines at all (2) and made a hand hold loop out of one of those would seem to select against Cossey having supplied belly straps etc. Cossey may have simply supplied packs without anything attached to them - Cossey would know. He asked for a knapsack but he didnt get that either and he didnt complain about it. We all know his reserves were pointless anyway. So if you think about this he had two ready containers which would have held (together) all the money and more. Instead we find this guy fumbling around as Tina describes finally cutting lines and trying to tie the bank bag around his waste? That is amateur stuff! And he actually takes a reserve pack with him! What in blazes did he think he would do with that? Need it? Something does not add up for Cooper being an experienced chutist. George
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If you will note at that time in this thread CKRET was doing a lot of speculation and I felt it unprofession for him to be doing this and now refrains from doing so. CKRET> I take anything Ckret says as authoritative. He is in this to solve the case, not play games. Thanks, Georger
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But Belgium presumably would have been WW2? I know an ex-paratrooper with over 50 jumps - 5 training (from planes not towers) and the rest combat (and all of them SL), but it was a different era and a different war. Given the time of the hijacking, Cooper may have been a Vietnam (or Korea) vet and I was wondering more about then - I have no knowledge whatsoever of paratrooper deployment in those wars. I think I recall reading about US paratrooper involvement in something happening in the middle east around that era as well but cannot be 100% certain that memory is right. REPLY> In my uncle's case, his citation meant they were training people with few jumps and dropping them into combat in EU. If Coop was say 47 in 1971 that makes him 18 in 1942 and born ~1924, well within the WWII generation but too old for Nam unless he was still AD at age 38 (in 1962). Vietnam began roughly 1958 under Ike but wasnt really active (taking people) unless say 1962-3. Everyone thought Cooper was more like 50 (1971).
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REPLY> And I am interested to know if Tina saw him exploring the inside of any pack! If he did then he knew something about parachutes and was examining them. That goes directly to his level of experience. I assume he would have seen pink vs white and known what it meant, as he opened the reserve to cut lines with Tina there! Did he comment one way or another? We already know he contemptuously pulled the packing card(s) out and tossed that on the floor and Tina questioned him about that and his reply. These issues go directly to Cooper's competence and help us estimate if he knew what he was doing (had experience) or not, which relates to his survival chances..
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REPLY> I just want to point out the (cut) lines on right side of the reserve bag are white, not pink. Cooper left two chutes on the plane. A back pack NB6 unopened (so far as I know), the front reserve pink currently discussing. It is this front reserve pink that Cooper cut two lines from. (Ckret even specified the length of the cut sections). So where do the white line pieces come from on the reserve bag Cooper left behind? Especially if the back pack was unopened ... and we dont know what color the back packs were (white, pink. etc). Cooper did have a small paper bag with him. Maybe he had brought his own cord? However, the dying is interesting, especially since you say it bleeds. I have passed this on to the money analysis people. There is one more option we havent touched. That is the option of Cooper using one of the front reserve bags to stuff the money bag into, then tying all of that off somehow. Especially now that the issue of belly bands comes up. That would have been far more secure around his waste than simply trying to tie the money bag alone. George
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REPLY: I assume Cooper would have seen these chutes were dyed, if he looked into the bag and knew the dsifference? Thats a question - George
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That pink canopy (and lines) must have been dyed that color for some reason. But you can say the pink canopy and the reserve container in your two photos were not paired as a set. Was there a white lined canopy left in the plane? REPLY> Do you have any idea what it would be dyed with? (DyeRite - brand name?) Do you think Cossey dyed all of his chutes? Geoger
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Georger - go back and do your research. You are listening to fiction, She saw little of this - he sent her forward. Jo, I didn't understand your post here. Could you clarify? For background: (my bold) (note specifically that the question of "extra straps from the chest pack" may negate any theorizing Ckret did in the 2nd post below) on Dec 17, 2007 4:26 PM Ckret posted the following: startpost--- Cooper's plan was to have the money delivered in a knapsack. When he realized it did not come as requested he tried to secure the money in the reserve's container but could not make it fit. He then decided to use the cords to tie off the top of the money bag, then wrapped the cords several times top to bottom and fashioned some type of handel out of more cord. Tina stated the last time she saw Cooper he was tying cord around his waist. REPLY> There is a God! Thanks. (laughing)
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REPLY> I may be 100% wrong but didnt somebody (Ckret?) say, Tina actually caught a glimpse of him tying the money bag around his waste? With line? G.
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Hm, that does bring another angle to the paratrooper theory of course, and one that I hadn't thought of - whether or not you are right about the # of jumps, most "normal" paratroopers, even with many jumps, would only have done SL jumps (perfectly logical for 1000' or lower altitudes). I have no idea how many people would have been trained in HALO type jumps by the early 70s?? Nick, I am also interested -in why you think he only had a handful of jumps? Is it fair to say that a paratrooper of age in that era may well have seen a fair amount of combat/"real" jumps as opposed to just training jumps? Do we (by which I mean do you ) have any idea what the average # of jumps someone that saw a tour of duty may have done all in all? p.s. ... great post about rounds My uncle went in over Belgium with exactly five jumps and two of those from training towers (so 3 actual jumps from low alt in a C47).
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I've also been wondering about how much parachute/skydiving knowledge was available in books/magazines in '71. I'm wondering if Cooper might have had zero jump experience and just read up on things. Did you really have to "know" someone to get jump knowledge back then? I've got a picture of someone doing their first jump off El Cap. (no prior jump of any kind before)...Early '80s (I can scan it if NickD is curious). It looks like a hand deploy. Apparently the story was he got instruction in the parking lot. How would that pucker factor compare to Cooper's? It's always made me wonder about claims of "a little" prior jump experience with Cooper. I'm wondering why people say that: pucker factor? or some of the actions (like 10k ft request, flaps etc) REPLY> Calculate Coopers age, birth date range, generation .... puts right in the WWII generation .... plenty of people with some parachuting experience. You wouldnt need a magazine. On the other hand Mayfield thought the jump community in WA was small enough (and given his record) he called H to say "its not me!". (which is funny because his name already appears in the NWA Transcript as a person of interest). Geoege
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Quote>>REPLY> What does it mean to 'prime the pins'. Pull them out slightly to make sure they are lose and will eject?.
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Quote>>REPLY> What does it mean to 'prime the pins'. Pull them out slightly to make sure they are lose and will eject?. Nick this is superb and very much appreciated. Two questions - (1) Could an NB6 false-pull by accident? If the pin gets dislodged and is pulled somehow the chute is lose to deploy ? (even if the pull cord hasnt been pulled)? (2) You say even with pin primed pull can still be hard. Can you explain? Remember Cossey said he thought his 28ft canopy in the NB6 container was probably a hard pull. Your information if just fantastic. George
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And if Cooper was at all experienced he would have checked the pins. He would have tried to actually move them with his fingers and maybe he even primed them. REPLY> What does it mean to 'prime the pins'. Pull them out slightly to make sure they are lose and will eject? . Also, what of the gear down. Does this create a wash that would have implications for a rear jump from a 727? Thanks, (your experience is valued!) George
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Jo, would you know the dates he lived in Washington? Thanks, have a nice Holiday - George
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REPLY: Agree, Cossey packed them all. I have been proceding on Ckret's NB6 (w 28ft canopy) + the dud front pack, then was reading the NWA transcript over and ... woh, what's this? Took two "small packs"? How? Guess its a mistake in the NWA transcript. I asked a long time ago if the dud front pack was the one found on the plane (with cut lines) or if he took it along. Cossey said the dud was marked with an X. Never got an answer so have that in my unresolved list. I wouldnt worry much about cut canpoy along with cut lines unless he used some piece of the canopy for something? But how would we know. Thanks - have a good Holiday. George
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REPLY>: Yes there has been much discussion - I could fill ten pages with that. Here's one excerpt. "Re Snowman: The main is easily identifiable if so. 22 gores. 26 ft conical. (if indeed it was NB-6). If the reserve was typical, I'd say 24 ft flat circular (snowman) 1. The Master Rigger, Earl Cossey, has stated that he was told by the FBI that only one of the four chutes was missing from the airplane when it landed, and that it was one of the two backpacks that he had personally packed. His theory was that Cooper could not find a way to attatch both the chest chute and the bulky package of money, and so decided to take a chance and jump with only the one chute. 2. The FBI has always maintained that "Cooper" took two chutes - a backpack and one of the chest chutes, and that the chest chute he took was, unfortunately, the Dummy training device. Either story, however, indicates that Cooper jumped with one good backpack chute which was professionally packed by Master Rigger Cossey. And from NWA Transcript: "*“Two little chutes gone, one big chute cut up apparently to tie the money with shroud lines to HJ. One big chute apparently still on plane." Do you see the conlfict? What did they actually find on the plane at Reno? Did he bail with an NB6 backpack and one dud front pack, or, with the two small reserve front packs as the NWA transcript says? It comes down to what was actually found on the plane. Thanks, Georger
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REPLY: Ckret, take whatever time you need. Its your call, of course. Im sorry if I jumped the gate but you posted a comment so I thought I had to follow up. Georger
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NEW ISSUES: to all . . . Issue #1 - Larry Finegold Atty: Larry Finegold atty was aboard Flight 305 11/24/71. Mr. Finegold is well known as a Federal Prosecutor. Was Mr. Finegold a Federal Prosecutor at the time Cooper hijacked 305? What was Mr. Finegold's practice on 11/24/71? Could Mr. Cooper have known Mr. Finegold? Issue #2 - How many Parachutes! ?: We have been operating on the premise that 3 parachutes were found at Reno: one back pack, two front packs with one pulled open and cords cut. Earl Cossey has said this is what the FBI told him. The NWA transcript however says this: *“Two little chutes gone, one big chute cut up apparently to tie the money with shroud lines to HJ. One big chute apparently still on plane." The NWA transcript implies Cooper bailed with a front pack. How is this discrepancy resolved? Georger