georger

Quotesnowmman, I probably shouldn’t get into this, if fact I choose not to. But since I had this link laying around for another issue, I thought I’d post it. It may have been posted before, but it’s easier to re-post than search. This link is from the University of Texas at Dallas, Library and is liberally referenced. It seems to confirm that no 727s were used by “Air America” for any reason other than Military Air Cargo (MAC) and Civil Air Transport (CAT) contracted missions. That is all well and good. But who is to say that Air America was the only organization flying covert missions in Cambodia or other border countries? I’m not taking a position on whether the CIA used 727s to drop humanitarian cargo, troops, weapons, or covert operatives during the Viet Nam era. But, I still think it was possibly true. We could argue this for weeks, but, I don’t think the proof is unclassified. Also, I don’t see the difference in “the CIA did” and “the CIA knew they could.” It’s all the same as it applies to NORJAK (IMHO). Now, I’m going to spend a day or two trying to understand the "Contenential Airways Captain Tom Bohan" issue. Is there anything in “NORJAK" (the book) footnotes or endnotes that gives a flight number for Capt. Bohan’s flight? And I would like to steer away from the “Robertson” issue. That’s what Sluggo gets for having fun with speculation. So, I should have never gone the “2, 4, 6, 8, I am going to Spec – U – Late” route. I guess I’ll learn someday. This is what I tried to convey to georger (unsuccessfully). If we were all in a room, sitting around a table, our facial expressions and voice inflection would help us to understand each other. All that is lost in a forum post. Sluggo_Monster[/reply REPLY: I think in Vietnam, anything that could be used for some purpose, got used. If you could slide anomo boxes off the back of a flying mule, it happened somewhere, sometime. I do think its a safe bet the 366th never used the 727 to chase Migs! (HI). Everything used in a military environment has capability testing - options are tested and used,

All in all, it's important to think about how the FBI may have been operating under some myths at the time. Also: that Norjak was part of the mythology process. Sluggo knocks news articles a bunch, but note the FBI is imperfect also. (edit) And I'm really curious about money fragments 3 feet under the sand. That was in news reports (and Norjak, as posted.) But the dig site was so chaotic (I posted the later photos of backhoe at the site) that maybe fragments just "fell" into a deeper hole? Who knows. REPLY: I seriously doubt if there were drops from the 727 (in Nam) its a secret. Why would it be? All of the aviation people here - somebody should know 100%. If there were money fragments at 3 feet then what is the Palmer photo all about? I thought the whole purpose of the photo was to demonstrate where the money was found "above" the dredge layer. Back to the Olympics!

REPLY> You just got Gold. Congrats! Any relation to Mr. Phelps? George

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Georger, I guess I’m going to have to send off an order to Amazon.com and buy every “Cooper” book ever published. See how much influence you have had on me? I’m speculating, I’m considering reading “Cooper” books. I’m just damned glad you’re not a skydiver, I don’t want to jump out of an airplane. Give me some time to digest this Bohan thing (it's all news to me), and I’ll get back to you. If I get sidetracked shoot me a reminder in about three days. I’m assuming the book this came from is NORJAK by Ralph Himmelsbach. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ REPLY> Ive never read H's book either! embarrassed to say. Thanks ... George

I've been around since Moby Dick was a minnow. With my interest in NORJAK, I have read all of every thread on every forum that a search engine will locate. I even have copies of some that are no longer accessible on the internet. NEED YOUR HELP - REPLY> Sluggo, tell me what Tom Bohan's remarks mean to you, in terms of V23, (Snowmman/ (H) reported below): "He quotes a pilot on an airliner behind 305, who said he was flying into head winds (pilot Bohan said: 80 knot winds at 166 degrees, "right on my nose". He was 4 minutes behind, and 4000 ft above, 305) , and also had detailed degree estimates on crosswinds when landing at PDX." Thanks, George

In H's Norjak book, he basically states the same theory as sluggo as the wind being wrong for the prediction. He quotes a pilot on an airliner behind 305, who said he was flying into head winds (pilot Bohan said: 80 knot winds at 166 degrees, "right on my nose". He was 4 minutes behind, and 4000 ft above, 305) , and also had detailed degree estimates on crosswinds when landing at PDX. It's Himmelsbach himself, raising the question that the wind was wrong. We've never discussed this pilot and airliner behind 305 before. REPLY> I think you mentioned this before, briefly. It was intriguing then and moreso now. Anything further on this would be appreciated - Thanks!

Most of you might say… So, what’s the point? When I started my web site and decided that the emphasis was going to be on separating the “facts” from the “myths,” I didn’t realize a couple of things. One, was how much time and energy it would take. And, two, was how the site’s position had to be my position. After I started the site, I felt like I needed to refrain from speculation, for fear that speculation would be confused with myth and I would be criticized for not honoring the commitment. A recent post by georger, made me realize that I might be able to express my speculations on this board without it compromising my position on the site. Maybe I have been too sensitive about an issue that no one but me sees. So, I’m going to slowly wade into the waters of speculation and see where it takes me. Also, georger mentioned a “simple thing” that might have thrown the whole investigation off. NOTE: The text below is pure speculation coming from the ass mouth of Sluggo_Monster. Do not confuse it with a position based on any evidence (published or unpublished). This is detailed, so please bear with me. I worked for a commercial nuclear plant in the Western United States (un-named) in 1991 and 1992. I was asked to develop some training for the Corporate Nuclear Engineers on their Emergency Airborne Release System (EARS). This was some software that enabled them to track a plume from the plant vent stack in the event they had to perform an emergency vent-to-atmosphere after a primary system break or leak. (Think TMI) I had to first understand the system myself, so I buried myself in the requirements, regulations, and operations manuals. After that I was a “system expert.” In order to understand how these corporate engineers would interface with the system I took a trip to the Emergency Operations Center (EOC) to see what they had to do and what they would see. When I got to the Offsite Dose Tracking Station in the EOC I saw a large map with the plant at the center and 16 pie-shaped slices (Zones). The problem was that all the zones were on the wrong side of the map. Every one of them had been rotated 180 degrees from what was described in the systems manual. I asked one of the emergency planners about it they said; “When we get a NNW wind the plume goes to zone 1 (in the 11 o’clock position on the map.) Well, to make a long story short, the person who made the map thought wind directions were expressed as “to the compass point” instead of “from the compass point.” The software was correct, but in drills and exercises, they were “painting” the plume 180 degrees from where it existed. Now, this is a big organization, it has some really smart and dedicated people working for it. But the error was made at a low level, and everyone at a high level assumed it was right. Remember the Martian probe where part of the software (from Vendor A) was using metric measurements and another part of the software (from Vendor B) was using English measurements. That type of mistake often occurs in BIG organizations or when multiple agencies are working on small pieces of the project. Now, can you see where I’m going with this? What if someone responsible for determining the JZ for NORJAK, thought the wind was “blowing to” rather than “blowing from?” With all the involved LE agencies, Boeing, and NWA working on “pieces parts,” could an error have been made? Where would that put Cooper at the original (Lake Merwin) JZ or with the new (Orchards) JZ? Think about it and get back to me. In the mean time, I’m gonna look at some maps. Sluggo_Monster REPLY: Well, I have never understood the drift vector on the "1972 FBI Jump Zone Map" ... to the northeast, out of the southwest. When Snowmman's and every other wind report I have seen says: from south-southeast to northwest at 20 kts. They cant both be correct, so whose is correct? The closer you get to the Columbia with the DZ the more it matters especially with money turning up at Tina Bar. Somebody's wind data is wrong or the winds were different from Lake Merwin to Orchards to Vancouver? 1972 FBI Jump Search Map attached -

I like your analogy of a ‘missing link” or “evidence gap.” I have thought about this a lot in the last 9 months and I have discussed some hypothetical scenarios with some of those on this board. (Maybe I’ll share some of them with the whole board someday.) I very much agree with you, the solution is going to revolve around some very simple (but un-acknowledged) action. REPLY> You know, his dress taken at face value might mean he didnt expect to have to travel very far after parachuting, if he was successful in his plan. Like parachuting as a means of escape he had some other 'quick escape' planned if the bail was successful. A scenario like that requires a plan and a point of departure for the plan to work. Scholl's airport does come to mind. BTW, I had a friend of mine who is a superb graphics man look at my layers from the yellow FBI map - he looked at other untouched copies. It didnt take him 30 secs to say: "pencil hell, some of those marks are ball point pen" and he pointed out many dots under the wider pencil lines and several of the arrows off to the right sides of the red cross marks (near top section of the map) which he says are done in ball point pen. Inks are datable. George

I have come to believe about you, is that (for some reason), you want Cooper’s body to have fallen in the Columbia. That’s okay by me. I’ll bet about 85% of us have a pet theory that we would love to see proven. (I know I have one.) Would you like to share that with us (or refute what I have come to believe)? REPLY> Sure, I will comment on this. I already have many times. I follow the evidence. That is my theory. My theory is my method. I look for relationships and where I find none then I try to gather facts, observe, listen ... to develop a lead or a connection. That I push in a particular direction means I am testing connections, nothing more. Like Safe I believe the Washougal washdown is too problematic. I believe any washdown theory must pass some fairly stringent requirements, and that includes even a Columbia wash theory. Short of Cooper landing near Tina Bar (which seems impossible given the flight path) I think the money appearing at Tina Bar presents a lot of serious problems. If Tina Bar had been where the PI said it was erroneously, then that would connect. The only reason I have leaned toward a wet drop goes back to Snowmman in another forum long ago when Snow talked about no-pull and augering in. That clicked with me because it would eradicate Cooper from the face of the Earth in one little gulp, as it were. But, unless it was a very unlucky day for Cooper I dont find any place along the Columbia where that culd easily happen unless maybe Vancouver Lake? But, the FP doesnt accomodate that. Moreover, in any of these scenarios involving a wet drop and the Great Gulp, you have to account for the condution of the money sitting at the bottom of a mud bog, then somehow getting to Tina Bar and still have enough of it left to be found in good condition. That to me presents a lot of problems. So as you see, I am not as simple minded about this as you evidently imagined I was. I would have loved to have heard Safecracking's version. But he is not here. Maybe he will tell you and it will serve the basis for your cracking this case. So, the best overall theory I have heard is yours. He dropped near Orchards. It fits the timeline & places less stress on the timeline with one possible exception: does it accomodate Rataczack's statement? Im not sure it does especially in clouds at 10k feet. Other than that I like the Orchards theory - your theory. And I give you full credit for coming up with it. I didnt think of it, but quite frankly I was relying on you doing the FP work. I think we all were relying on you ... and quite satisfied. But if he landfs at Orchards how does the $doe$ get to Tina Bar. A rail line does connect the two areas. Washdown? No. I dont see washdown there. For Cooper to land at Orchards with money appearing at Tina Bar, Cooper almost has to survive or, there is some third event or circumstance none of us has thought of yet. I am sure many people have thought about this and nothing seems obvious. And how does DB land near Orchards and nothing of him is ever found? Unless ... he flew out at Scholl airport and for the hell of it dropped money near Tina Bar which later appears? That is not impossible. He might have had help! He had already displayed a certain cavalier attitude about this money when he was with Tina Mucklow, so what's a few thousand dropped for the peassants to find and ponder over when he knows he's soon to be faraway gone. I could buy into a scenario like that. Jo will now pipe up and say "see! I told you so. That was Duane". I remarked long ago this case wasn't easy. Our frustrations have shown many times. I dont think it has a damned thing to do with your personality. I think its pure frustration. The dots havent connected because something isn't showing the dots. There is a reason why the dots arent connecting and that reason is some missing piece of the story, something that didnt easily reveal itself over the years, for some reason. I mean maybe there is some piece of evidence sitting somewhere that points to the missing link in this case. I don't know. You don't know. Apprarently nobody knows. Is there some big piece of quick sand near Orchards he could have dropped into? Or he did fall into Merwin Lake and somebody found his money and then finally in 1979 they take some down and drop it a Tina Bar expecting it to be found quickly, to take the heat off themselves? Was the heat being pout on somebody near Merwin Lake at the time in this case? So as you may finally see, I am not wedded to a wet drop at the Columbia at all. The Columbia is just one option and far from automatic. The Columbia is a very small target in any event! I am well aware of that and always have been aware of that. Whatever it is, it's probably something wickedly simple that has separated everyone from solving this case. Obviously, we have a Bermuda Triangle in this area of Washington. Oh God! Did I say that? Calling all newspapers! Phillip-morrrrrrrrrr-rayyyyyyyyyy-is! Thats a private joke between me and my generation Sluggo. Pay it no mind. Georger

Quote Sluggo, you kinda of derided georger's mention of a possible "quickee map". I'd like to explore that. Do you think any search area was defined on a map for use the day after the jump? I mean there was some searching started immediately. They didn't focus in with the '72 map until later. What map was used, or how was the search zone delineated? Do you think it was oral communications? Do you think maybe if there was a map, it was discarded over time? Or ckret hasn't revealed it? or ?? I'm just wondering why you dismissed georger's mention. He was obviously referring to my posts about what Tosaw said based on his interviews with Soderlind. REPLY: Precisely. That is 1/3 of where I was coming from. The second third comes from other sources I feel are credible because we are not the first or only people wondering about the history of the search for Cooper and any 'maps' that are relevant. The third part arises from the sudden realisation from Sluggo's post suggesting that Ckret himself might made the crosses on the flight map. Something like that had never entered my mind and if that were remotely true, then obviously we don't know ANYTHING about the history of these maps we have been discussing for months, and they may even be brand new as of 2007? The very suggestion is astounding. That is the reaction of everyone I know in this matter, today. I am not just speaking for myself here tonight. Th very idea that we have been labouring over maps which we don't even know the true history of - potentially changes the whole equation of this process. I would think, just my opinion, that anyone trying to delineate the History of the NORJAK case would spend some time explaining the history of the two maps cited most in this case. The history of these maps, how they came into being, might have some bearing on the meaning of those maps? Snowmman understood what I meant by "quickie-map". Sluggo used the term "orphan tic mark". I didnt hear any orphans here object! Things are said simply to further discussion. And if Tosaw's description of how the NWA map came into being is correct then it was in a real sense a 'quick map' drawn on the spot... then probably revised later into a more formal version, maybe? Im only putting thoughts into words, just as I tried to do on Sunday. My assertion on Sunday that the pilots kept notes and made marks on maps comes from interviews I have heard and articles read where Scott and Rataczak mention keeping notes and I am sure oneof them said "made marks on a map". I mean, there was a long discussion in the transcripts about them having the right maps, or sendng the proper maps out to them if needed, so obviously they had physical maps with them. And Lastly:, when I said on Sunday: " I simply refer you to the note at the top of the map which says: "1st PLOT" and we know as you have said that was from the pilot's own map or notes." I actually thought that you had said this or confirmed this earlier, but I may be mistaken. You now say the (commercial) pilots didnt make notes at all, on a map or otherwise. I can find no record of you having said the pilots kept notes, so I may have errored in this. And the funniest part of all for me, is, I happen to have a visual issue since childhood. I sometimes invert or reverse or even supply letters, and look right instead of left to start reading a word or line (as English requires). Before I wrote my statement you reacted to, I went back to your tic mark map and tried to read your line next to 1st PLOT and I read " Location of aircraft ........... according to P(I)LOT. I saw pilot, not plot. With this I wrote what I wrote. An innocent mistaken and a by product of - dyslexia. You see I did again above. mistaken. I mean mistake. I have many thoughts at this point I need to sort out. Maybe later - Georger

Sonderlind’s map? You know something I don’t? Quick-Map? I have absolutely no way to estimate a date for this map, except that it (the sectional chart) was issued before PDX was a “Class C Airspace” and is consistent with a 1971 chart. As for the marks? Ckret could have put them there right before the FBI posted it on their web site. (Or, maybe they were used in January 1972 to define a search area.) Again, you know something I don’t? You have knowledge of two radars tracking Flight 305? Would SEA ATC radar be the McChord or PDX radar? If you know where Cooper bailed, then why am I wasting my time trying to understand the flight path? I have no idea what you mean about “faulty memory after the fact.” Here is one of the insults I mentioned. I feel that I understand the error because I have made the error. 377 says that he has made the error. So, in your opinion, Sluggo and 377 are incompetent, stupid, and morons. Thanks. Afternoon stroll? Are you a McCann campaign strategist? That has ZERO intellectual value. [Look up “cone of confusion," and then practice setting multiple nav radios under stress, then get back to me.] When we first communicated (on another board) I “strongly cautioned” you about assigning statements to me, when I have never made them. I would like to “strongly cautioned” you again. I never made any such statement. I said that the 1st plot point was probably where the plane appeared on radar (when they climbed to 10,000 feet from 7.000 feet). The last person who would have a map of their location would be the pilots. Commercial pilots do not plot their paths like ships do in the movies. I have no knowledge of any “notes by the pilot”. Would that “time” be the 20:11 time, the 20:15 time, or some other time. Well we almost agree here (batting 0.500). Not a strong argument, but not necessarily a plausible scenario. Oh, I just figured out why they occurred near Portland. It’s because that’s where they occurred. If they had been somewhere else, they wouldn’t have occurred around Portland. I think you have misunderstood every single word I have said - in substance and in intent. I feel like Im dealing with somebody from another planet. We have no common language or even a common psychological platform. I will have my 94 chromosomes checked tomorrow because one of us is from outer space - I guess you now have an insult to whine about.

Quotegeorger, You remember a few weeks ago, when I made a post stating that I wasn’t posting often because I seem to kill the thread? I said I didn’t mean to, but it was just a part of my personality. I think I would be remiss if I didn’t let you know that sometimes your posting style is “downright insulting”. You may not mean to be, and if I was talking with you (on the phone or in person) you might not seem insulting at all. That is one of the drawbacks of communications by posting on an internet forum. But I deem your last post as “insulting.” And, BTW, you aren’t alone, there are others who post here, that don’t seem very respectful of others. Whether you mean to be insulting or not, I will continue to respond to your posts for a couple of reasons. One, I think you have added a lot to the investigation, you have some insights that I value (as I’m sure others value them as well) and two, I have the intellectual honesty to allow for differing opinions. Also, I sincerely hope I am just reading your post incorrectly. REPLY> what are you talking about? That is what I would like to know. I feel like Im playing nursemaid to a bomb always ready to go off for no reason. THAT is how I FEEL. How exactly am I insulting? For once in these pages say what you mean. Is a this a soap opera or what? GEORGE

No it does not depart from where I think they would go. I have super-imposed V-23 on that part of the map. I think they were just getting back to V-23. [Attached Tic-Mark Analysis V-23 RED.jpg] Sluggo_Monster REPLY> Ok. now the obvious response. You knew I would make. Whoever made the FBI FP map by whatever process, some data set (surmised or actual) decides the tic mark placement. Whether it was radar data or a consensus of opinion or whatever, they did not go through this exercise for no reason, for the hell of it. Otherwise why make the map at all! They already had Soderlind's NWA map, but using that Cooper had nopt been found. _So, what is the estimated DATE of this FBI FP map compared to Soderlind's quick-map he started at Minneapolis? _and dismissing error of some maker in placing a few stray tic marks in the wrong place, all in the same area and nowhere else on the map, could it not be error at all but "two independent data sets which do not agree all in one area" ? _two radar data sets, McChord vs PDX, which actually did not agree leading to two sets of tic marks right where you would expect disagreement, near PDX. Why of all places on the whole flight map do two sets of tics appear right around or after Cooper has baioled. I mean is this Aviation Histories Worst Day Ever!? Is everyone a moron and doing nothing right with faulty memory after the fact? I dont buy it. These are smart guys, skilled, busy(yes) but not atupid and suddenly incompetent . Something happened. Something was going on. To simply say they departed and were returning after a lazy afternoon's stroll to V23 defies belief. These two sets of tics is not error for no reason, if it is error at all. In the real world, I would suppose several radar data sets as well as professional opinions or testimony went into the construction of this map. Obviously one set of opinions included the flight crew. I simply refer you to the note at the top of the map which says: "1st PLOT" and we know as you have said that was from the pilot's own map or notes. I think this flight map was a cooperative effort and their very best attemnpt to piece together the flight path they thought they flew combining whatever radar data they had with personal testimony and actual notes of the pilot(s), Scott and Rataczack. I think 305 got diverted around PDX for a reason and from say 8:13-8:16 there is intense discussion going on and it was this that had them straying off V23, perhaps deciding if they should even attempt to land at PDX, because it is clearas day from Rataczack's testimony THEY KNEW COOPER HAD BAILED! These tic marks in my opinion point directly to data and actual event based confusion going on in the PDX area precisely at the time following Cooper having bailed. I know this is not a strong arguement I am making here. But it is a plausable scenario and helps account for two sets of tics in this area. I dont think its error. I think its actual uncertainty and even conflicting data sets owing to the actual events as they occurred in a very difficult set of circumsatances for which nobody was prepared or at fault. Geoeger

"...because no one witnessed it." That sums up about 98% of this. Nobody saw him - attach anything to himself. exit the a/c. land. live/die. We don't know - his actual experience level. his landing area. It is all speculation. You stated that you believe he clipped it on the harness. What is your basis for this? REPLY> Tina saw him cut lines and tie the container off at the top, then make a loop like a hand hold, and then tying the container around his waste ... all posted before by Ckret, I believe.

I have had the same thoughts - believe me, no stone will be unturned if I can help it. I have monitored & recorded your thoughts very closely. I keep a daily diary of this whole matter. The possibility of it being NB6 parts is very much on my mind - that is why I described the shape as roughly '2/3rds of a U-bolt', in other words, a piece of "hardware". Fittings, parts, etc all play into the picture. I seriously doubt these rust deposits are from iron in the ink on the bills - the stains are another form of ferrous oxide (possibly a hydrated form). This is what I mean when I say there are different kinds of rust, because in reality, thereare. Its chemistry. But, one bill is not a statistical sample. Its one bill so far. Maybe all of the bills show rust intrusions and I just have lousy photos Im working with - who knows. Im not closed minded int his affair. Im very open minded. For all I know its rust from a bed spring, a revolver, Snowmman suggest wire rim glasses, or maybe some part the Fazios threw on the beach. Who knows. All I can say is Imnot surprised. This is a sandbar. A debris collection site. All manner of stuff comes down the Columbia to get deposited. Should anyone be surprised there would be articles that rust? But is it something that could only have come from the bottom. If that is the case now we are talking about dredging and that dredge layer. We know, at least we think, the money lay atop the dredge layer (re- Leonard Palmer phD geologist) but where at the top? In the top layer, clearly above the top layer? These and other questions must be raised in order to make headway in this matter. I merely point this out - Again I put out the call: any photos of money with suspicious traits - POST EM! Georger

Now the problem with rust, is that the money bag was supposed to stay intact, to protect the money over the years, and also "disperse" it in a physically close way on Tina Bar. The money bag supposedly didn't have any eyelets for drawstring at the top. Just open bag. So it wouldn't cause rust. If the bag is holding together to provide the protection/localization of bundles, then it's also likely protecting against rust from random metal stuff, until the deposit on Tina Bar? If it is indeed rust, then it tears apart a bunch of other theorizing about the money, I think. Unless metal existed under the money on Tena Bar. Also, I'm thinking the black is from chemicals in the silt in the Columbia, not just from the bills. REPLY> We dont know what event(s) deposited the money (and other debris) at T_Bar, or in what state, beyond a dredging in late 1974. We also have only one clearcut example of rust on a bill so far, to my eyes. One is not a significant sample that speaks for the whole group unless there is something very special about this bill and we are exceptionally lucky.

Wonder if that ring stain might have come from the bottom of DB's bourbon glass? About the right size... What color is bourbon when it stains material? http://www.fotosearch.com/BDX178/bxp33988/ ltdiver I dont think it is rust from the rig - wrong kind of metal/rust - just looking at it. Just looking at it, its more of a soluable Fe iron rust, soft iron. Maybe a leaf spring from a '34 Ford buried at Tina Bar, or a boat or implement part.? Well, it actually makes more sense than some rust that instantaneously formed during the 15 seconds that it never touched the rig. Anyway, bourbon should be part of any good conversation. Beer is for people who don't like to drink, they just want to smell bad. Bourbon is actually enjoying it slowly.

No it does not depart from where I think they would go. I have super-imposed V-23 on that part of the map. I think they were just getting back to V-23. [Attached Tic-Mark Analysis V-23 RED.jpg] Sluggo_Monster REPLY> Ok. I assume you mean getting back to V23 after the turn south of BTGVOR ? I wont post the layer images - seems superfluous. Thanks - George

REPLY> No, it has all the traits of ferrous oxide. Here are some other examples of rust on paper... but you are correct; it could be any piece of iron or steel that was in the debris at the site. I can hardly believe when they excavated the site metal wasnt found? We also have this fact of iron in the ink of this currency and Im just not sure what role if any that has to do with this situation. The common experience in life is rusted paper clips leaving a rust stains on paper. I have examples in my files from years ago. It doesnt take very long for metal to leave a rust stain on paper due to the absorbancy of paper if rust is in contact with the paper. Snowmman has also wondered about the black on these bills. Ferrous oxide in concentrated form is black. Now, I am not saying the black on these bills is concentrate ferrous oxide but it is a possibility. The redder more orange-red stains are what we more commonly associate with rust. There are different kinds of ferrous rust - each with its own characteristic colour and spectrum. Snowmman has wondered if the black bills were bottom bills. Well they might be. Iron leaching from currency ink through cycle of dampness over time might very well leave the bills at the bottom of the piles black with concenrate ferrous oxide, but ... until an examination is made this is all conjecture. And I keep repeating, is there rust on one bill, many bills, all the bills ? I do not know. My expectation is there is ferrous contamination on all of the bills simply due to the iron content in ink, but beyond that we are speculating... These answers will come in time, one way or another. We had some discussion here earlier about rust on parachute fittings and there was pro and con on the subject. Very likely all issues can be settle when and if the stains on these bills are ever tested because that will identify in very specific terms the kind and nature of the rust(s) which may be involved. This could rule out NB6 parts or not. It could also point to a 'bed spring' buried at Tina Bar! How does metal get to Tina Bar? Obviously it could get there by any number of means which also includes the dredging of '74 which undoubtedly spewed out metal parts along with everything else, everywhere the dredge operation placed its debris. I would suppose there is a lot of metal on the bottom of the Columbia especially in areas where heavier debris can settle out to be silted over. But Tina Bar is also near a farm and sand pit operation. When the nature of the rust is known then a few answers hopfully will be forthcoming. Keep looking for photos of money with more rust stains! Ive decided to post a number of photos of rust on currency etc. And one special photo for Snowmman showing black ferrous oxide - on manilla poster board. The artist? thought this was cool? (I think it sucks! Art this is not, but I post it as an example of black ferrous oxide which it is). Georger

I think there is sufficient evidence that the person making the tic-marks slipped 1 major tic-mark west for FOUR* plotted, hand-drawn tic-marks and then corrected the error. They left the tic-marks but plotted the line correctly. REPLY> Thanks for the reply Sluggo. I understand the dilemma. What interests me most is the orphans only exist at PDX and nowhere else on the map. The uncertainty is centered at PDX and Im not sure it is uncertainty. I also find it interesting that just south of Orchards at "RGREEN" they swing wide, west of PDX, as if to avoid it. And does this depart from where you would expect them to go, given their previous path along V23 - in some meaningful manner? Both FP tic sets avoid PDX to the west. Why? The only question is by how much. Why were they avoiding PDX and when was that decision made, or was this standard procedure? Had Cooper bailed or was he in the process of bailing (in the minds of the crew at the time) starting just south of Orchards/RGREEN ? Is that why they swung wide of PDX? Also, notice the two pencil dots (tic marks?) right in the middle of the Columbia River? (attached phto I have pulled this map apart in layers. I may post the layers later tonight. George

The above quote by Snowmman is a positive. The FBI has answered that for us already. Yes, they lost evidence - the cigarette butts. REPLY> That is not certain at all. Information earlier (in these and other pages) suggested the butts were returned to Reno after analysis and are still at Reno in storage, somewhere. Ckret spoke to this long ago. Your Duane was "not" DB Cooper, any more than I am the Pope! Georger

My post seeking rigger input on the rust stains didn't get any substantive responses. I see the stain outline of some sort of man made steel hardware, right angles, arcs, symmetry, but maybe its all in the eye of the beholder, faces on clouds. One thing I did notice is that the same image displayed on different computers/monitors gives VERY different appearances. I couldn't understand why nobody was seeing the circle/arc that was so plain to me until I displayed it on a friends computer and you could not see it at all, something to do with color settings? 377 REPLY> There isnt much one can say without an analysis. It looks like rust. What caused the rust is pure conjecture. Here are photos in natural colour. Features: There is an impression left of center approx 10mm wide which runs the full width of the bill (65mm). This impression looks like a depression and appears to have gentle curvature, but the depth of curvature is not uniform the full width of the bill. The shading or shadows in the depression reveal its nonuniformity as you follow the full length of the feature. At the top of the depression the paper is broken (with flap layed over). Going right from the depression along the bottom of the bill is a deep arc of rust approx 65mm long. At the right end, the rust line arcs upward suggesting the semi circular shape you see. Above this are sporadic rust marks. I understand the temptation to associate these features with something on an NB6 chute - photo of NB6 attached. To me these features have the shape of 2/3rds of a U-bolt, but this is only a subjective impression. Obviously, rust from metalic parts of an NB6 chute would have to be matched to the rust on this bill, if there even is a match. Without an analysis of the rust it is impossible to match it to a possible source. In addition, we do not know if there is similar rust on other bills - I have seen no other bills which show similar rust. If anyone has photos of bills showing rust, I certainly would like to see them. Georger

I think you are right Sluggo. Reminds me of nav track plotting errors I made back in the day before GPS. My post seeking rigger input on the rust stains didn't get any substantive responses. I see the stain outline of some sort of man made steel hardware, right angles, arcs, symmetry, but maybe its all in the eye of the beholder, faces on clouds. One thing I did notice is that the same image displayed on different computers/monitors gives VERY different appearances. I couldn't understand why nobody was seeing the circle/arc that was so plain to me until I displayed it on a friends computer and you could not see it at all, something to do with color settings? 377 REPLY> 377, your request for a 'substative' response was noted. It hasnt been forgotten. It has been hectic here.. I will be back tomorrow with more ... Thanks, George

I assume that's for me. Fire at will (or shoot anyone if you don't have their names). Thanks Sluggo. What do you make of the tic marks (+'s) on the left side of the FP at Portland? See attached - Georger

I do have a couple of questions about the FP if you're up for it? George