georger

Orange, You completely missed the second level conspiracy explanation. To cover up the significance of Duane's 1968 commutation, the MO govt in the very next year dramatically ramped up commutation volume thus effectively diminishing or even nullifying their significance. A guy in a black helicopter told me so. 377 the really funny thing is... that exact "explanation" had crossed my mind! (albeit sans guy from black helicopter) heh! I was actually astounded when I found the article. I looked again when 377 said the state numbers I quoted before were too low. So good for 377 to be skeptical at first. The surprising thing was how MO was apparently unique during the period we were interested in, and how they had a law change in '79. (I'm guessing about other states, but it doesn't really matter what other states were doing, except how it affected our bias...) Just totally unpredictable. Shows how random coincidences can easily occur and without knowing the full picture, be judged based on present information/bias, rather than the information from the period/region. The sheer number may also explain why records on Duane were lost. The article was written by reporters in a hot political race evidently. Someone trying to tar Republicans (or challenge an assertion?) for being soft on crime historically. The reporters were trying to show how that was an unfair tar, that there was a good reason for it. So the data is probably good...during a gubernatorial race, reporters are going to try to be accurate. (relatively modern, 1998) Also they noted that the governor's office couldn't find some records. So I suspect it's not just Duane's records that were lost, but others also. But as everyone sees, the key thing was that commutations were given as part of the parole process. So it's much easier to understand how Duane would be released after serving half his sentence. REPLY> I forget the year, but,. there was a fire in a joint State-Federal records centre in 19?? in StLouis and I know for a fact the fire destroyed hundreds of thousands of Federal military records. Not sure if this is related ....

REPLY> This has been discussed at length in the past and nothing conclusive ever surfaced. Keep track of Rataczack's statement which has Cooper bailing as Rat "could see the nothern suburbs of Portland". Now, consider what PDX radar saw, if anyone was looking.

No. The article I just posted above I think answers the question. The laws were different in MO then. There was a parole board, but evidently not full powers until '79? or something like that. (see above). See, we were thinking we understood MO. We didn't. Note to Jo: if this doesn't make you realize you were connecting dots that didn't exist, I don't know what will. You have to read the above and agree: Duane's commutation meant nothing. It was like parole. 377 will have to concur, eventually. (I think?) REPLY: MO has always been a poor State, economically. Sometimes commutations have an economic motivation, and then they let the small fish go. It's expensive to run prisons.

Everyone laugh because that is a strange reply for Georger - Georger - did you fall on your head laughing. No Duane was never a boxer nor did he ever have a head injury or be diagnosis with anything you guys have mentioned. He did need some counseling regarding going on the Kidney Machine, but who wouldn't - they do the same thing when someone has cancer. REPLY: Jo, can you tell me simply "why" you want Duane to have been Cooper? Georger

The raincoat is a non-issue. It is probably the least of his worries. In fact, probably his only contributing survival factor if he landed safely that night. REPLY: I have been keeping a tally. (for a long time) The current tally is 13 - raincoat would have harmed or killed him. 9 - raincoat of no consequence at all. All experienced jumpers (I guess). A similar tally of survived vs didnt survive splits almost 50-50 among skyjumpers. Now do you see the dilemma? Experts cant even agree.

And how would the judicial system deal with the flood of people that would simply claim to have been DB Cooper in order to become rich or go down in history? How would they deal with the delusional ones living out a fantasy life that might actually think they are DB Cooper? REPLY: The same way they deal with them here.

REP: and so it is! The Guppy. Good one 377.

It was just a pebble besides I couldn't hit an elepant in my yard, much less a BOXER - I was corrected today. REPLY> Had Duane ever been a boxer or suffered a serious head injury? G.

377 - I can answer that. He did say Aft Stairs becauseI asked him what Aft stairs was (I didn't have a clue) and his reply was that it was the stairways in prisons. Also remember that this was in the middle of the night when he was having a nightmare and talking in his sleep. REPLY> Was Duane ever diagnosed as being paranoid schizophrenic, or having a brain tumor or lesion? G.

I own three dogs and do a lot of dog training. I've taught one of them to ride a skateboard. I'd have a hard time believing someone on this thread is going to be able to shout me down about dogs. REPLY: WELL SAID. So we can bitch about the "raincoat" or "topcoat" but we're don't even know what kind of coat we're talking about. REPLY: We dont even know for a fact, he had it on when he bailed! Tina saw him with it on preparing to go with it on, it appeared to her, but he could have refitted once Tina was gone, he could have modified the coat ... there is no evidence he did but he had enough time. What surpsied Tina was the ease with which he dawned his chute in the first place - like he was xperienced. This in no manner diminishes the testimony of the experts here, but the fact is, nobody was there with Cooper to witnesses it. And nobody has solved this case to date, so far as I know. One limiting factor on tying would be the number of lines he cut from the reserve to tie things down with. You can only tie so much down on your person with n_number of lines of length L.

AggieDave I don’t want to (try to) speak for Jo, but I think I know why she originally thought you were female. If fact, the first time I saw your post, I thought the same, then I decided you were both male and female (two people, not a hermaphrodite). Let me explain it like this: “Aggie” looks a lot like “Angie.” So, at first glance my mind said this is Angie-something. Then on closer inspection it looked like “AngieDave,” so now I’m thinking of this nice skydiving couple who share an account (as many do, especially “Premium" or "Subscription” accounts). It was only after looking at your profile (or maybe I saw a post that mentioned Texas) that I realized you must be a Texas A&M alumni or fan. All of us aren’t into collegiate sports, or are familiar with the College and University mascots. So screen names that start with Tide, Pirate, Dawg, Jacket, Volunteer, Razorback, War Eagle, Eagle, Gator, or Seminole do not necessarily immediately “hook-up in our brain.” Especially, if it isn’t apparent where you are located. Make sense? Oh, BTW, Jo has a pretty keen “sense of humor” that you guys don’t let come through. When you got “mad, real mad,” you became “Ms” forever (or at least as long as you are adversarial toward her). [That's IMHO] Sluggo_Monster REPLY: I leave no doubt about where I stand in this. The minute Ckret says I am being 'irritating' then I will be gone or something - does that satisfy you? I trully am not trying to be irritating at all. I honestly dont know where this is coming from or why. But I am very aware you keep bringing it up. George

georger, As irritated as I get with Orange1’s constant harassment of Jo, I find myself coming to his defense (as a member of the sky ape/bird turd skydiving community… him, not me). On this forum (thread) we have very few individuals who produce bona fides. Ckret is an experienced LE professional, and is one of the exceptions. Most posters don’t reveal any “areas of expertise” where they are considered “experts.” However, each of the sky ape/bird turd skydivers has their bona fides right in the left-hand margin (if you have your screen set up like mine). Orange1, airtwardo, and AggieDave have at least 5988 jumps between them (I have no idea how many sangrio has, but I’ll bet it is a few). That makes them “experts in the field.” Sluggo_Monster, snowmman, and georger have…… ummm let me see… carry the zero… subtract the j-operator… find the cube-root…. Oh yeah… ZERO jumps between them. So to my way of thinking, when more than one “expert in the field” tells me that something is true… I believe them. I don’t feel like I have to “see it”, although, it would be nice if I could. The reason that this thread is on this forum, on this web site, is because of the skydiving expertise. I understand why they get irritated at the whuffos. I wouldn’t be surprised if they removed access for all of us one day. You have a unique way of investigating NORJAK and have made many positive contributions, please keep doing that. But, please… please… PLEASE… try not to irritate the sky ape/birds turds skydivers, by challenging their opinions in the areas of their expertise. Just a little advice/request from Ckret’s creepy uncle Sluggo, Sluggo_Monster REPLY: I am well aware of their credentials and appreciate it. It is precisely because of their solid credentials that serious discussion and investigation can take place. I would not be asking these questions of some random Joe on the street, any more than they would. All I can ask for is some tolerance as time hopfully will make things clear. I would not be asking these questions anywhere else but here, and there is a reason for that. Ckret knows why I am here. If the discussion ceases to be productive then I will leave and perhaps watch and say nothing. I am not trying to be irritating at all. I am always open to a PM. But I appreciate your expressing your concern. In fact you raise a good question: would any of the highly experienced people here try a skyjacking? Probably not. Why? Follow that line of thought - Thanks - George

If someone is going to make a medical and psycological opininions of me regarding my posts and my search - that person needs to display their credentials or cease posting in that manner. I believe it is "criminal" to pose as a Dr. of anything. All I am doing is trying to find that one simple something that is being missed that will end all of this and that is ALL that my post reflect.

ok... now put yourself at the prow of the boat. boat is going 120mph (or more - exit speed). somehow get yourself so that your legs are facing the 120mph+ wind (with no 'help' subduing the coat by lying down). Is the coat still compressed against your body acting as windbreak? REPLY> I see the point. The forces are not comparable (boat vs drop). And if the coat opens up, its potentially even worse. The fact of a trench coat is not exactly conducive to slip streaming, but a lot depends on how he falls, how he handles this drop, how quickly he opens the chute, etc. Which takes us back to whether he was a novice or experienced. Keep in mind Cossey said this was a double motion (pull) chute which makes even more problematic. If he was no more competent pulling a chute than he was getting the chairs down, then he's right on the edge of trouble or worse. Let me also say this which has nothing to do with whether he survived or not but speaks to the public glamor over Cooper. I think from the public's point of view everyone instantly recognised that Cooper parachuting was inherently dangerous. Then he was never found which opens to the door to "he may have survived" when most people wouldn't. This alone elevates Cooper into hero status, someone special potentially, an atheletic hero. The Olympian of the hijack trade! And facts be damned. Its much easier to believe a myth when facts are not at hand and part of the story. What intrigues the heck out of me is that he would do this at all which puts Cooper somewhere between total ignorance or somebody with experience. The man was either suicidal or there was something about this that in his mind made it a viable option. I just dont see this guy as wreckless - he did too many things right and used good instincts to accomplish what he did. For me its one of the missing links.

QuoteMs AGGIE: Only someone with some real 'stones' can call a 260 pound Texas Cop..."Ms." REPLY: Shawn Johnson could!

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=8822&cn=7 REPLY> I will only remark that the pathologies you list above often are at the root of cult activity. If the flying saucer or the Unicorn fail to show up it seldom deters reorganisation of cults and the participants are right back at it again quickly, powered by the underlying pathologies described. Early in my academic life Istudied this at some length. For a physicist it was interesting, to say the least. The tug and pull between the subjective and the rational is eternal! The important point is: the underlying condition must exist prior to the social actualisation or social witness of the condition. Usually due to early life experience. This may have nothing to do with this case, or it may. Subjective self reinforcement even in the face of lack of support in the community at large, can be a powerful determiner of action. It can motivate people to do all kinds of things, for good or evil. Performance can be tied to motivation.

I can imagine an experiment that might result in a significant percentage of deaths now. Possibly even with experienced jumpers. Jump with raincoat on under harness. At night, from 10k ft. Jet exit. rain/temp is probably not a big variable, so ignore that. In looking at the harness, I'm not clear on whether a raincoat would really flap as much as people say. (just not obvious to me). REPLY: I just cant see this flapping raincoat especially in the upper section which would interfere with the pulling ring?. I must be missing something. Most raincoats (trench coat) are fairly tight fitting. Its not like a lot of lose material. In a fall or in stiff wind these raincoats compress against the body. (like standing at the front of a ship in a trench coat). The coat could serve as an excellent windbreak. Ah! Maybe he had tried this before and knew firsthand how a trenchcoat would work? Keep in mind he has to cross several boundaries at once in his dress - civilian acceptability, cover, annoymity, windbreak while parachuting? The selection may have been intentional based one experience. How many other jumpers wore trench coats? Georger

Jo, I am sorry that you may have been embarrassed or humiliated, but how can you take a law enforcement official to task for disclosing a public record about a criminal? Do you ever think about Duane's many victims and how their lives were impacted by his actions? When he would upgrade his apparel with restaurant cloak room swaps, didn't you think about the person whose coat was stolen by Duane? You knew he was doing it. Did you reprimand him or demand that he return the stolen item? I know love can blind and I know you do not condone crime. You did however go along for the ride in some instances. I just think Duane made a lot of people miserable and you should be able to tolerate some of the embarrassing consequences of his selfish actions. It is time to stop giving Ckret a hard time about the record disclosure. He apologized which is more than many would have done. I do think you are obsessed with proving Duane was Cooper, but I do not share the view that this is a psychosis or delusional thinking. There is evidence to support your theory, but there is also evidence to the contrary which you ignore or attack. I do hope you resolve the mystery to your satisfaction during your trip. I know how it must feel to be certain of something that everyone else discounts as a delusion. I do have sympathy for you, and felt your pain during some of the vicious attacks that were posted months ago when you got into the James Earl Ray and MLK topics. The forum is much more civil now. I just want to be sure you are being fair to those who do not share your views. peace, 377 REPLY: What are the odds this will work? (hee hee)

REPLY: Ive been following these - some amazing stories here. Common threads throughout. Thanks..

Thanks Ckret - George

ALSO: Did he leave the brown paper bag behind, in the Lav ?

QuoteQuoteOn a second sweep some magazines Did the FBI get prints from any passengers on 305 that deplaned before Portland (it started on the East coast, as we've noted) REPLY> Are dead people automatically figerprinted, I mean at hospitals, in morgues, funeral homes, etc? It comes to mind to ask!

From my interpretation of the transcripts (all of them available to me), I believe almost no one at NWA thought it could be done. The Page 99 reference to “ABILITY TO JUMP OUT OF A 707 WITH A PARACHUTE ON IS NIL” is indicative of this. (Once you resolve the “707 vs. 727” issue.) It was Boeing who told them it could be done and Boeing that furnished a procedure to do it (as opposed to NWA). I get the sense that the procedure wasn’t “canned” but rather written while 305 was on the ground at SEA. It was included with the charts and instrument plates sent to the aircraft. So, in summary… I think “surprised” is an adequate description. Sluggo_Monster REPLY> Agree.

Funny, a jet jump (in my case a DC 9-21) is a very easy jump, but has far more "social value" than other more difficult jumps from prop planes. If Cooper had hijacked a puddle jumper commuter airliner I bet they wouldn't have scrambled as hard to meet his demands. I still think he must have known, in advance, that a 727 ventral in flight exit was possible. Otherwise, he was walking into nearly certain capture. Only an idiot would do it without knowing for sure that he had a way out. I very much agree ...