georger

Did Cooper keep the bad, or did he part it out too?? Everyone locks on to the 30' or so of paracord that was cut from the usable reserve, and forgets all the cord and canopy material from the training dummy? According to Sluggo's timetable he had over 30 minutes from the time Tina went forward until the estimated jump time. I could rig up some pretty secure "transport containers" and attach them well enough (or at least think so) in that time. REPLY# 30 mins is about right - relevant passages from the PI Transcript below: T1 7:42 pm t1 305: MSP FLT OPS this is 305 outbound Seattle 14 miles (out) on V23. Seattle he is already trying to get the door down. Stewardess (Mucklow) is with us (in cockpit). He cannot get the stairs down. 305: We now have an aft stair lite on. MSP: Roger.305. 7:44.22 SEAR2 Northwest 305 advise if you change altitudes, over. ….. 305 OK, we will hold at 7000 and we got the back steps down now and it looks like we are not going to be able to climb any more so we will hold at 7000. 7:48 pm t1 *** [holding 7000 ft … strange exchange.] 305: Holding 160 indicated which is approx 5 knots above the BUG. Holding 7 thousand feet. Indicated 160. Fuel flow is 45 hundred. 7:48 pm t1 [now climbing above 7000] 305: GG to 15 degrees and beginning our climb. MSP: Roger. [Note@ 7:50-53 quick climb 7000 to 10,000 and hold. 170-180 knots. Crew on O2] 7:54 pm t1 MSP: As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land. 305: Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him and thinks he will attempt a jump. MSP: Roger. After leaving this freq go to 131.8 we have direct phone patch There (to Company and FBI) 305: Roger. [Note@ 7:54 10,000 holding 170-180 kts Ctl wants 305 to land asap as soon as Cooper jumps. Muckow saw money bag on him looked like ready to jump] 7:57 pm t1 [ Mucklow describes bomb to Gnd Control …] MSP: Have stewardess describe to you the brief case contents. Understand red dynamite sticks wire and battery 305: Mucklow: In briefcase left corner had 8 sticks of dynamite about 6 inches long and 1 inch in diameter. Two rows of them then a wire out of there. Then a battery lite, a flashlight battery only as thick as my arm and 8 inches long. MSP: Roger. T1 Transcript : 8:01 pm t1 MSP: What is altitude? 305: Now at 15 thousand. Indicator 160. Fuel flow 4000. 15 degree flap. Gear down. Cqn will stay at 10,000 until he has left. MSP: Roger. 8:05 pm t1 305: 305: Have attempted on two occasions to make contact with individual he did not reply. Did not reply. Then used PA system and he said, “Everything is Ok”. MSP: Roger. [Note@ 8:05 +10,000 160-180kts 15* flp wheels down – “Everything is OK”] Rataczack's testimony says he bailed 5-10 mins after last contact at 20:05. Would Tina have still been in back with him at takeoff if the stairs were down?? Or would he have sent her forward so his departure would not be known. The facts seem to indicate he planned on jumping very soon after takeoff. Familiarity with Seattle/Tacoma strengthens that assumption. That makes the nb6 a better choice, for reasons I already stated. Would he then have taken the briefcase and overcoat with him? That may not have been his original plan, but once he started to improvise, anything could happen. Reply# He seems to have wanted Tina to assist with getting the stairs down; maybe assumed she was fimiliar with the system. He had chosen Tina very early over Flo Schaffner. *It is important to realise (whether Coop did or not) that his departure is going to be noticed in any event. You cannot open a door or lower those stairs without it producing a physical effect which is most likely going to be noticed by the crew. Most experienced skydivers and pilots would realise that, so any rouse to hide the jump is a mute point. NWA, Boeing, McChord, Scott & Rat, etc all probably knew that, had discussed it, and may have been looking for it. Instruments were being monitored. I fully agree that Cooper was a novice. Some skydiving experience seems necessary. A total whuffo may come up with the plan, but I'd put good money that he would still have been on the back stairs at Reno. "Watch that first step-its a doozy" takes on a whole new meaning at 10 grand. And at night. Reply# Dan Cooper, assumed age 47-52. 1919-1924 born 1937-1942 age 18 1939-1944 age 20 1945-1971 does what for 26 yrs post WWII ? 1971 hijacks an airplane Georger

needed fuel for a rendevoir? He needs fuel to make it uncertain what his itenerary is...

Yeah, but... I dunno, Georger. Ask anyone who's seen someone come off second best to the ground, and see if they are prepared to take a risk like that? Remember skydiving is about minimizing risks, it's not a death wish like many seem to think... But Cooper probably was NOT a sky diver! So what the psychology or motivation of skydivers is, especially today's generation, is irrelevant. I will present here a Geico-moment. By 1970, which is the decade of the 50's-60's, skydiving is a very small community in contrast to the jump community of the military, for example. in 1965-70. It would be like comparing model rocketeers to NASA and the US Army Air Corps. (von Braun at Huntsville etal) in 1965-70. We do have a few basic facts about Cooper, mid to late forties or early fifties. Let's say age 47. Dan Cooper: age 47 Born 1924 age 18 1942 age 20 1944 age 27 1951 age 47 1971 If Coop learnt parachuting any way it was in the military (most likely) not in sky diving (less likely). So, we are potentially talking about a WWII paratrooper veterans skills base, attitudes, etc. If you push the scale up and say he is 52 then Cooper is totally within the WWII generation: age 52 1971 age 20 1939 age 18 1937 born born Cooper very likely learnt everything he had and was out of the post WWI and WWII generations. Maybe Korea but if so that is simply an extended version of WWII in terms of core values and experience. So, unless Cooper was a member of a very select community of hobby sky diving after WWII, 1945- 1970, or affiliated with it in some way, then the foundation of any parachuting skills he had was in the military and military values apply. Several other demograohic realities need to be mentioned, if Cooper was WWII generation and aged 47 or thereabouts. born 1924 age 20 1944 war ends 1945 ...... 1955 doing what? ...... 1965 doing what? 1971 hijacks airplane & parachutes Maybe Cooper was a successful person by 1971 and hijacks an airplane for kicks? The other pattern post WWII leading to crime is more typical: Misses out of the post-WWII boom period through the 1950's, tries again in the 1960's but things don't go smoothly - a very typical pattern for many post WWII. By the mid to late 1960's the sense of failure is becoming evidenent so Cooper decides to take a stand and make a personal statement. He uses the core values and skills he has or think he still can muster to use. But whatever the facts are, it ALL is centered in the WII generation and post WWII epoch. That much is clear. How hobby sky diving fits into this more factual scenario is anyone's guess. Georger

look at this old post from Ckret: Who is this "you" in 'you choose' and 'you wouldn't'? Ckret is saying he wouldnt. Ckret is not Cooper. All that matters and has ever mattered is what Cooper did and thought. All of the 'you's' can wait in line for their turn. I was wondering last night; of all the parachuting hijackers on record, how many were 40+ and pushing 50, and what percentage younger? Is this a young person's sport or an old person's dream, and is there any distinction - statistically? Judge Judy probably knows. Georger

Yeah, those of us who do not have an agenda here think "FBI guy" has acquitted himself with grace under fire here. Reply: with Excellence. Georger

Would you deliberately make a whuffo-like choice to hide the fact that you are a jumper, to the extent that it endangers your life on a skydive ? and on the other side, who best could handle mistakes or apparent mistakes and take up the slack? Vets learned to handle and absorb mistakes, precisely. They invented SNAFU. I had an uncle who was a parartrooper in WWII (Marine) who got mad at me one day talking about Cooper, and suggesting he had died due to lack of skills! My uncle told me directly (calling up his own experience as a paratrooper) 'you dont know what the ___ you are talking about'. My uncle was thinking in terms of his own experience and that of thousands like him jumping into war zones in all kinds of conditions. Make no mistake. My uncle thought Cooper was a pure criminal. But, when it came to the subject of parachuting, he was very defesive in Cooper's behalf just on general principles gained firsthand in WWI? My uncle and some of his unit were captured in Belgium after a jump, then ceased control of the Germans, fought their way out, and escaped... Thse guys were tough. If Cooper was one of them or even remotely like them, then .... we cant take anything for granted. Georger

but ckret seems to grab onto loose info like squeezing the charmin (the reserve) showing that he wasn't a jumper. We have no idea what happened to the 2nd chest reserve, and Ckret is talking about speculation about whether Cooper squeezed it and made a decision about which one to cut open? Jeez he might have looked at the NB-6, decided to take it, with no D-rings and no tapewells or whatever and said "IT DOESN"T MATTER WHICH CHEST I OPEN" cause I ain't taking no Chest! It don't matter! If I recall correctly, the professional consensus earlier this year was if he got it open he had a nice ride and landed... maybe injured a bit. The arguement was, th reserve was irrlevant for all practical purposes. This was the professional opinion. Now, if Cooper had the same perspective then ... the reserves are irrelvant for him also. We have good testimony the reserves were not relevant for a number of reason .... ? This touchy-feely stuff is a little obtuse for me. Doesnt take much of a touch/feel if he's a pro. Simply looking and a brief grab - thats enough. No big deal and why announce it with Tina there? (The dutiful Tina probably would have called Scott and said 'turn this plane around right now - we need a good chute! And that would have been done. The last thing Cooper needs at the time! It would have clued everyone in on his skills?) If the experts are right then the next real need is packing that money and the canopy bag offers an alternative. Im only speculating. Im going to go way back to Tina and Ckret saying he dawned the NB6 with ease, like he had done it before. That is rather striking if true. ??? Did he have the coat on or not, under the chute? Tina's testimony counts here. Ckret still hasnt answered that squarely. Lastly, and I almost hate to say this but, I wonder about Institutional Goggles, as a counterpart to Sluggo's Cultural Goggles. I think some people have a vested interest in making Cooper look dumb and inept. It might come as welcome (to some) to suggest the Columbia swallowed Cooper up, and thus 'he got away dead'. It could also happen to a professional. I think we have to be careful here and keep our goggles defogged - before jumping to conclusions. No Jesus on the Goggles. Georger

ok. Then I'm ready to say no-pull. So if we have no-pull and the money find, and the testimony and flight path, it's pretty easy to come up with a scenario that ties it all together. I've provided no-body-found drowning cases in the Columbia already. What are we missing? Does the money find not align with randomness? We are not missing a thing Snowmman. A no pull certainly is a likely outcome, but not a satisfying one. I am still hoping that Cooper survived. 377 Dont pull yet! Sluggo is working on 'experience' (he said). Just a reminder...

http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=93063 Even in 71 the USAF had reasonably small solid state beacon transmitters for chutes, like the URT 21. http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0630190 "Cooper got rid of those with his Capt Video field strength meter .... or, they shreded as they went through the fans with Cooper." I actually have a URT 21. They have a transmitter activation lanyard that starts the transmitter only after the canopy deploys (or when you get seat separation in an ejection setup). A field strength meter wouldn't help. It is in stealth mode until that lanyard is pulled. It transmits a swept audio tone on 243.0 MHz AM. 377 You have just provided material for somebody's forth coming book. Jo even missed this!

Im replying to you and WoldRiver. Would it be fair to assume that a WWII generation vet would be more apt to expect and survive a hard pull situation vs. a later Vietnam vet? Im trying to key in on generational experience, expectations, and gear... Where would the likely source for chutes be at Seattle, in Coop's situation? What types of chutes could he expect to be given? (McChord? AF chutes?) Georger

TIP: You cantgetinto trouble with the FBI if you are Blind.

http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=93063 Even in 71 the USAF had reasonably small solid state beacon transmitters for chutes, like the URT 21. http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0630190 377 Cooper got rid of those with his Capt Video field strength meter .... or, they shreded as they went through the fans with Cooper.

Really, i know what you checked out of the library last month, and it's late two days. The FBI knew exactly what Cooper had because we gave it to him. If you wanted something untraceable you certainty wouldn't want to use something the FBI gave to you. You have know idea how we would monkey with it before you would get it in your hands on it. Reply: I also want to remind all that there are a few documented discussions about how they might sabotage Coop. (Reference: NWA transcript II. Go to Sluggo's website: http://n467us.com/ ) So far as we know, Scotty played this out straight. No hanky panky. (funny stuff). But one look at his firmly set jaw and the look on his face and you know .... he thought about it? And they did discuss options. There is also the matter of the period of missing flight comms in any transcript btwn ~20:12 - 20:20 just after Cooper bailed. But no feathers or pieces of Cooper plucked out of the fans at Reno. (lisa can have a field day with that ... feathers!) Georger -

very good post! Thanks.

And Ill also note that you forgot to listen to me that Cooper IS a skydiver, jeesh Special Agent Wuffo. Reply: Care to defend that? Georger

Snowmman- This is why we call you guys "whuffos'. Skydivers don't think we can fly. We can fly. That's why we (Me anyway) do it. Yes, we are "flying" straight down. More of a plummet really. But it is flying. Look at some of the videos. When we leave the plane, we control our bodies by the position of our arms and legs (and whole bodies). I feel like superman flying through the air. It is like nothing else. Look at some of the wingsuit videos and you will see something even closer to true flight. (I am not qualified for that-yet) And yes, I know that even though I am flying, I need the canopy open over my head or landing is going to be truly awful. You whuffos don't/can't/won't understand it. That's ok. I don't understand a lot of things. But keep in mind that we have a very different view of life, each other, and the world in general because of this. BTW-I'm not using whuffo in a derogatory sense. Its just handier and "cuter" than 'non-skydiver' Reply> I understand. The question is, was there a part of this in Cooper as evidenced by something. Let's call it confidence based on "air" (as a deterent to gravity). You have to feel it to know! You have to have been there to know. Whuffos dont know and many chose never to find out. Wont say more. Georger

Reply> It was his inclination to jump when he wrote the note in his pocket, and then presented the note on the plane. Whatever the issue with him carrying on his own chute he knew McChord AFB was close. This may or may not imply military jump experience. The largr issue for me is him accepting chutes from strangers. We have never discussed here Cooper inspecting the chutes he was given? If jumping was his "last restort", then what was his first choice? Not hijacking at all? Asking for a limo? Giving up to authorities? I think his plan was the pan he conducted and revised along the way until leaving the plane near Portland. Georger

Snowmman you are much much smarter than that. Back then we got a ticket with boarding passes in a folder. You handed this folder to the Stewardess and she removed the boarding pass for that leg. Cooper had NO reason to touch the boarding pass. Wow! You were on top of it last night - whatcha doing tonight - pulling silver? Are we trading insults Jo? Pick your favorite, here. -> You're speculating. You know nothing about this detail. Sure that's a possibility. So are others. The only fact is a picture of a single ticket, that we don't know how was tied in to the whole thing. If you can't distinguish fact vs speculation, well... Oh, wait a second, that detail is fact. time for innocent parties to get off the dance floor and behind the bar! Good luck!

Good Grief! What Ckret is saying is he only has to talk at his clients to get them to submit - never has to lay a hand on them. They just go limp on the floor muttering in unknown languages, and then other baseball hats bring in the buxom blond nurse with a large hypo for the accussed. Case closed! Now we know why Cooper jumped! Georger

What the heck are you talking about - Basic Conservation Laws? Rember my roots are Blonde. I like blondes. My downfall. Google conservation laws. I dont mean 'save the red tailed mosquito'. I mean there are basic laws which govern all known activity in Nature - the conservaton of mass-energy, conservation of angular momentum, electric charge, parity-symmetry, etc. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_laws The fact is, most things that happen operate well 'within' the limits of the limits of these laws, not outside them, not at the friges of them, but well inside these laws. That means, everything that happened in the Cooper case happened well inside the boundaries of these laws. Which means a set of ordinary events and explanations for everything that anyone including Cooper did, on 11-24-71. Cooper could not steal one second of drop time from Nature once he bailed. There is only one unique solution to what happened, not five solutions. Once a mistake was made in the search it could not be retracted easily. And the chain of complexity between the money at Tina Bar and Cooper can only so complex before violating or boarding-on-a-violation of some conservation law! Cooper was mortal. Myth has nothing to do with it. At its root this is exceedingly simple. That is the scary part! That is what I mean. Georger

Unhinged as you may be that is an interesting observation... in light of the previous discussion about whether Cooper wanted to see the lights of Portland when he jumped. May swing us back again towards looking for an experienced jumper? reply~~~ (1) he planned to jump from the start, ie jumping was his plan of escape, experienced or not. This implies he was looking for an exit (and exit strategy) even before boarding the plane. (2) He had a chute on and wanted stairs down even before the plane lifted off at SEA. He pressed to have these basic requests filled but then when the stair request could not be met he gives up (almost without a word) .... and goes to plan B? So far as we know, he never mentioned or made any indication of a side escape. As far as experience goes, he vastly under-estimated the turnaround time on the ground at SEA. (I know Suggo does not agree). He got the issues of the stairs wrong, on the ground and in the air. By the time things begin to accomodate him bailing he is long out of SEA if SEA was his original target. But, with this passage of time he has also perhaps missed the most perilous terrain he might have bailed into. Now he waits. There is no question that he waited during this period when he could have bailed. What is he waiting for? All of this (and more) suggests his experience and judgement were mixed, as based on his performance. It appears Cooper wanted to bail early, in Washington. (in Seattle, in an urban area or close to one....) Anyone could have seen the lights of Portland/Vancouver coming up. We already know he knew something about the geography of Washington. He chose a specific place WHERE PARACHUTES WERE READILY AVAILABLE! He is a mix of experience and knowledge. Georger

That is a good one. This is the first election I felt there were no real options - I thought about doing a write-in, but I didn't. Economics and politics need to be required classes and not electives. Considering that most individuals after deductions do NOT make over 50K (depending on their location) just where does our president elect think the money comes from to run this USA? Elk club I agree economics should be required. Maybe the president-elect thinks if he can do something to reverse the Bush policies that turned the US's fiscal balance from a nice surplus to a large deficit (the war a biggie here obviously but also the various tax breaks), there would again be plenty of money to run the USA. This seems to be pretty common sense to me (and most economists judging by what I have read, and believe me, I get a lot of good economic research). By the way, in most countries with a progressive tax system (that is where you pay a higher % of your income as tax, the more you earn), the bulk of tax revenue actually comes from a relatively small % of taxpayers at the top of the tree. I don't know exactly what the US tax rates are, but the following example should illustrate the point: Say you are taxed at 10% of income up to $50K, 15% at $51K-$999K, and 20% of income after $1m. You have 100 people earning $50K paying 10% tax each, the govt gets $500K tax. You have 1 person earning $5m, taxed at 20%, the govt gets $1m tax from him - in other words twice as much from this one individual as the next 100 put together. If you really want me to dig I am quite sure I can get hold of the tax incidence data for the US to get the exact proportions. But in simple terms, this is why taxing the rich works (just don't tax them so much that they move elsewhere ) Should we get back to DB Cooper now? Economics? This has nothing to do with economics, any more than rocks think about nuclear physics. A simple IQ test and Stanford Benet would help just to make sure we are selecting people in the same species. Think about it: Cooper tapped the Hedge Fund and we have been investing to make up the loss ever since. 'Man is a superficially rational animal' That said, nothing in or about this case can violate the basic Conservation laws. Not even Sluggo or Jo! That defines Cooper right there. Work within those limits .... ? Georger

Orange1, Speaking of my (current) pet project... You posted something about 4 months ago that has helped me tremendously (it concerns your answer to the question about 10,000 feet as an ideal jump altitude and whether that would be (typically expressed as) AGL or MSL).Your response helped me with (or started me thinking about), the dangers of night jumps over terrain that one was unfamiliar with. With MOCA’s in the area of 3,000 – 4,500 ft. the AGL jump altitude and appropriate free-fall delay had to be … risky… critical… foolish… stupid… cagey… but (most of all) essential to success or failure. This speaks to his skydiving expertise and or topographic knowledge of a very large area. In those two areas he was either super knowledgeable/confident or totally oblivious/passive (in regard to survival). I’ll have more on this when I finish the project. Watch my web site for the results. Sluggo reply: good to have you here. Yes. Isn't that interesting (Orange's comment). It is worth noting that depth perception is different at night vs. in daylight even for an experienced jumper. Night vision and day vision involve different neurology (and autonomic response patterns). Heights and distance appear far more abstract and manageable at night than in the daytime. It is very to misjudge the distance of lights at night, for example. A skilled person with experience could even have some advantage at night in benign territory. Far less anxiety for one. More relaxation and reliance on skills and experience . . . Don't forget: Cooper said he had some 'pills' to keep him alert .... just some thoughts - (what I reference has been quantified) Georger

A fair question. Some might answer, 'its none of your business!', or 'it doesnt atter..just keep doing your job!'. Nothing is guaranteed in this life. But, if you went back to the beginning of these threads and kept a list of basic issues to be answered you might notice some questions have been answered, some progress hasbeen made. It may depend on your perspective and what questions you had (to be answered) in the first place. I try to focus on very simple questions and get answers to those. The public knows a lot morebout this matter than they did say five years ago. My grandfather uses to say to me: There are two rules in life (well at least two). One, if you are ever down to your last dime, spend a nickel on a rose for yourself, and Two, never be unkind to your horse. (It was my job to ride fence on the upper sections and report back.) Georger