georger

This is what I looked for - for yrs. I had been told about it, but had no proof it was actually done - now, you found it. I was only able to watch it in second segments. Does anyone know how I can get it on a disk or whatever in order to view it like it is supposed to be viewed. I have only dial-up. Air America planes had a connection to JMWave (reported to be a covert cover) out of Florida. JMWave bought some of the planes. Two companies who had Weber on their payroll at that time and prior to that as Collins were part of JMWave.? Go research JMWave and you will find they bought Air American planes in the 60's and early 70's. JMWave was reportedly related to various covert actions in Cuba and other countries. There was also a reported drug connection. I know you guys think I am crazy but this clip took me right back to where I was yrs ago and all it got me was 12 yrs of being ridiculed and made fun of and called delusional....BUT, I didn't have the clip - just the information that it had been done and Duane's involvement with these companies. These Insurance companies have alway been a puzzled me because Ex-cons cannot be licensed insurance agents. I met many individual who worked for these companies when Duane did - and I have since 1996 found that four of whom Duane had a close association with are also ex-cons. Most agents with these companies were and are very legitimate - but for some reason it seemed to be a easy place for ex-cons to find employment. I do seem to recall Jo insisting that there had been early 727 jumps. I remember questioning her proof. Jo, how did you obtain that info? I had my strong doubts, but you were right. I expected Dr. Lesser to confirm that the Air America 727 jump stories were urban myth, but SURPRISE: he links me to FILM OF THE JUMPS!!!! JM Wave appears to be entwined in all sorts of spook stuff. Doesn't mean Duane was Cooper but it does add some possibilities that Duane may have been exposed to some covert ops guys. Jo, you make a big deal about felons being banned from insurance jobs. Duane was a con man. Isn't it far more likely that he evaded detection of his convictions rather than being granted a free felon pass by higher ups? I have seen it done by flipping a number pair on a social security number and misspelling one letter in a last name. If caught you claim "mistake or typo". If not caught, you got the job. Back in the pre Internet days it was easy to hide criminal records in routine employment situations. Maybe word spread among cons about places that were lax in checking backgrounds. I just cannot see an insurance company intentionally recruiting cons. 377 Do you know what a "cult" is?

No. Is it available online? 377 TV? what's TV? Looks like something was on this morning on Discovery Channel? Is this a new flick? Dec 15, 11:00 am (60 minutes) D.B. Cooper TV-PG, CC A Hollywood screenwriter couldn't have better scripted D.B. Cooper's parachuted jump strapped with a stolen $200,000 from Northwest Airlines 727 in 1971. With sophisticated forensic techniques, new light is shed on this dark night of a criminal vanisher. In 2004, Discovery had this flick with Jo: "Flight From Justice: The Story of D.B. Cooper." Not only will Jo Weber be interviewed on the show, producers say FBI investigators will share their theories on who hijacked that plane nearly 33 years ago. That show was reviewed here: http://www.tv.com/the-fbi-files/flight-from-justice-the-story-of-d.b.-cooper/episode/535955/reviews.html?review_id=90577&flag=&tag=reviews;episode;continue;1 Its obvious. What the world needs and wants, is a Jo Weber DB Cooper doll! Book writers could put the Jo Weber doll in with their books! Networks could sell the Jo Weber DB Cooper doll! Just imagine. Out of every 60 mins of programming CNN could market its Jo Weber doll for 45 minutes. Jo would be a billionaire. Sluggo would be a millionaire managing Jo's affairs. Geof Gray cold get the first 10,000 certified dolls to sell with his book! Galen Cook could be denied any dolls to sell. Thats it! The Jo Weber DB Cooper doll. You heard it first here(@)Georger Georger copywrite@12-16-08

Maybe a greeter at WalMart. He would only be 80-90. Georger

Things are down for the Holidays. People have gone many directions. Ckret has been on vacation. I expect things to resume after the Holidays. Happy Holidays to all - Georger

Good progress thanks to 377 and you! Congrats.. Georger

You might want to pursue drops over Laos and Cambodia. Georger

Indeed! Nothing abominable about our Snowmman... when he is in a good mood. Pre Cooper 727 jump evidence has definitely put our Snowmman in a good mood. 377 Im rather serious in saying Cooper could have brokered the idea of jumping from a 727 from a number of possible sources, including his own re- invention of the wheel (his own idea born on the spur of the obvious). But, it was common knowledge and common myth that one cold bail from and drop cargo out of a 727. I have not run across any vet with experience who didnt know that or think it, based on something. In fact the knowledge or myth is so wide spread I have thought our discussing it is rather silly. I could be done, and was done as a fact, easily. (I would not even be surprised to find out engineers at Boeing designed the plane so cargo drop could be done! wooops am I revealing something. Yes, I do know a retired Boeing enginner who worked on the Cooper vane project). So, we have proved you can jump out the back of a 727. Melly Clistmas! Georger

4, 5, 6, 7? potentially. Forgot one maybe two more. 8? Unreal.

225-235 degrees was already established.

well the transcripts imply boxes were sent out, possibly during some testing. Reply> I agree. The transcripts do imply boxes could be sent out the back of a 727 - Boeing tests. Obviously they had done it. If the military wished to know if you could make ice cream in a 727, Im sure tests were done (to sell the plane). In addition, every Vietnam vet Ive ever talked to say yes without pause - "oh sure. The 727 was used to make drops of cargo". That we cant find it confirmed on the Internet may say more about the Internet than about actual facts of Vietnam and the 727. The Internet is funny that way. Its strange what gets Google-life and what does not. The 727 may not have been a preferred drop vehicle but that does not mean it wasn't done. The greater issue is: it could be done! That is all that is required in this case. Obviously people thought it could be done, even the manufacturers. So Cooper comes along and does it. Now all doubt is removed. It can be done. It happened. This satisfies the "Labrys Axiomatic Condition". It's no longer a rough unbounded outline but a specific fact. Georger

Obviously it was rational to him on some level or he planned to die. I seriously doubt we are looking at some code of bushido here, except as he said: "I have a grudge". But not with the airlines, he said. So with who? Who or what, was his focus? Who or what would be harmed by his action? Was this a personal crime or social crime? Without his statement to Tina about a "grudge" I would not pursue this direction but take his actions in the vein Ckret seems to endorse. ??? Georger

Reply> The below caught my attention several days ago, as it applies to Grudge: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/12/oregon.bank.bomb/index.html December 13, 2008 -- Updated 0757 GMT (1557 HKT) (CNN) -- A bomb exploded at a Woodburn, Oregon, bank branch early Friday evening, killing a police officer and injuring the town's police chief and a state bomb technician, Oregon State Police said. Woodburn Police Chief Scott Russell was listed in critical condition at Oregon Health and Science University Hospital, according to hospital spokeswoman Christine Decker. (snip) People know the banksters are the ones behind this financial collapse - and yet out super-corrupt congress just gave them trillions of dollars!!! Hell yes people are mad. Georger

So... you're accepting that when there are more variables than known quantities all you can do is work for a simple equation that describes relationships. You guys have worked hard to define boundries but that's all you have. Reply} we know he was missing one eye and had a peg leg. what have you got?

First some corrections need to be made in the post that was done regarding several things that are inaccurate. Also he will need to go over with me what scans he wants to use - he has many and more I was supposed to send but I got them all mixed up with some other things. As far as Knuetson - or however that name is spelled...as Snowmman pointed out I don't know exactly what it was, but it was something like that - it could have been Newton or Newston - almost any variation of that sound. The only way to really know is to go to Dollars Corner and search the property records for 1944- 1971....also anyone owning or running a business in the area - I assume they had to have a license. As I said before if someone lives in that area and wants to do the research I will pay for you to do it. Doesn't anyone know the name of the Boeing man who was investigated in Portland as having been a suspect? Not the one Swomman mentioned (the genius). This man lived in West Portland which would be where Duane mentioned "I used to know a man who lived over there" . At that time we were in the area of Wintler Park, but Not in the park. He was pointing West. At the spot we went to on the Vancouver side the bank of the river was relative steep in 1979 with trees that were not more than 10 to 20 yrs old, plus lots of scrub trees (very young ones). If you go west to Wintler Park the banks were not steep at all. There was a low incline through out the park, but just East of there the elevation of the bank climbs. When I went back in 2001 new home had been built along the river banks I believed Duane and I were in 1979. I was told there was another area that you had to go back up on Evergreen and then go back to the River just East of that point that I did not ask the driver to take me to - perhaps I should have. I was told the two site had everything I described to the "Angel Udell" and the "River Lady". Would have been interesting to see if I was able to see the airport tower from the other location - then I would know which one it was. The place Duane took me too - trees and a slight bend obsured the tower, but he told me that it was there. I never knew where the tower was on the maps - I have been shown.[/reply Reply]: Did it ever dawn on you to ask your husband: "Why are we here"? Why would a husband drag his (new) wife out to a place like this without explaining why! How were the mosquitos?

Okay…… [Sluggo taking a deep breath] At the expense of (once again) being accused of being secretive (or conspiratory), just think about your statement. Okay…. Thought about it? Jo, did not harrang the FBI (initially). I’m not talking about post 2003. If the FBI thought for 13 years (it was really only 7) that there might have been (an element of) truth in Jo’s story, isn’t that prima fascia evidence that there was, at the minimum, something that held their interest? Jo went to Himmelsbach on Doug Pasternak’s suggestion. Himmelsbach “greased the wheels” for Jo to make official contact with the Bureau in 2000. The Bureau came and got personal items (for DNA analysis) in April, 2003 and considered Duane a viable suspect until 2007, after the DNA didn’t match the DNA from 4 unknown individuals on a tie assumed to be left by Cooper and not handled with a “Chain of Custody” consistent with DNA sampling (from 1971 – 2003). I guarantee that the Bureau didn’t “want to know the truth about her husband”. They wanted to close NORJAK. I have a lot more to say…. But it’s late here (CST) and I’m going to bed. Try this, ask Jo for permission to allow me to scan some of the data I have about Duane and post it here. If she says yes, then you can make an informed decision about the validity of her claims. Don’t misunderstand me … I don’t think you will come to the same conclusion as Jo, but I think you will find it interesting. More in an e-mail tomorrow… Orange1 The term “unpublished” was not meant to imply a conspiracy or “special secrecy”. That area was then (as now) a relatively populated area. The FBI would not have wanted the public pouring over private property looking for $200,000. Remember this was prior to the Ingram find. I should have explained better, but it was a long post and I was trying to be brief. I think we can assume that in all cases, they didn’t find anything. Sluggo_Monster [Out] Sluggo, it is all anecdotal evidence. Not hard evidence. You can't speak for the Bureau. That they kept Weber on file until 2007 could have been due to a thousand different reasons - it doesnt even mean he was viable, just still on file active. Maybe they closed out 50 people that year. I dont know and you dont know either (Im guessing). I'm not going to speak for the FBI or try to second guess them. I frankly have too much respect for them for that, so call that my bias. Sure. There are many coincidences. Many uncanny coincidences from the current perspective. Perspectives change! How many candidates have there been to date? All had some level of coincidence or association going for them. That is what defines a candidate. Weber seems to have many coincidences in his favour, all anecdotal with not one piece of hard physical evidence except for rumors of hard evidence. There is just so much I can do, Sluggo. Unless God drops something on me so I can do more I cannot do more. Even then I am not sure I could do more. This is bigger than all of us. This thing is damnd near Biblical and quite frankly from a management level I can understand why some people might want it to go away. Its a resource eater! I play in the band and I can only play the music Im given. I dont direct the band.

yup. another thing I realized, is that our ability to reach out and touch people, is limited by our search tools. A random guess is that less than 20% of "good" suspects could even be listed by us. (p.s. I kind of laugh at the skydivers who've bragged about being pseudo-investigated! I am whuffo, so I can say that!) Looking at all the "facts" in the Cooper case, it's easy to make a case for the likelihood that our "tools" can't detect him. So getting all serious about it, is kind of a joke. The most likely outcome is not knowing. If it ever becomes known, it's going to be sheer dumb luck, (coupled with some effort). But luck predominating. Or Cooper wanting to be caught. That's kind of my thing. If he's alive, wanting to be caught at his current age. If dead, then it's just hopeless. agree. Tools are no better than the data fed into them. No data, no output. HAL even knew that. There is data which would narrow the search but we dont have it, and anecdotal claims from biased supporters is hardly fungible data. Make no mistake, Jo has a vested interest in everything she is doing whether Duane was Cooper or not. But her evidence is all anecdotal with not one placard or Cooper bill or anything else of a non-anecdotal nature in the box. She can stomp and flame and whimper all she wants with ten-thousand defenders ... it comes down to the same central factoid every time and it looks like it will never be anything more. I am surprised Sluggo would fall in so deep. Georger

Reply> has everyone lost their marbles here? I didnt say it was secret. I didnt say the FBI searched. I said "R U M O R S - of". Three separate series of rumors of searches. I need a secretary!

I do not think Duane was part of a search in the Orchards area - he was working in Georgia. I disagree with this - because that would not support all the other things Duane told me and showed me. How could an obsession about Cooper explain how well he knew Washington? How can an obsession materialize in the form of a ticket stub, a plane ticket and a bag? The only answer anyone has for this are that I have to be delusional or I am lieing...... In regards to Duane's health. Please talk to your Dr about Polycystic renal disease and the early stages. This disease is a hereditary disease Rep> Jesus Christ Jo! Weve been through all of this before. Remember? I am the one who brought it up and you had to defend against it. ..... go back and read past scripts. Sorry. Get a medical license! (and get some counseling !) Georger, xx, xxx, xx, xxx, that moves in stages (they did not understand the stages when he was first diagnosed and the prognosis was always presented as rather grim in those days). Duane led a very normal life and he was a very strong man - for many yrs. When I met him in 1977 he was doing fine - on medications for high blood pressure, but very strong. The disease made a stage progression during our marriage - at this time in 1986 they placed a shunt in his arm for diaylsis which he did NOT need until 1990. This is how unpredictable the progression is of this disease. He was a very lucky man - what was a death sentence by most standards in the 60's and very early 70's was a disease that took major and giant steps in the medical field during the next few yrs. I will agree that in my 13 yrs there are times I have to make a guess just like the rest of you as to the actual incident, but I disagree that I am mis-interperting any of the things Duane said. I am definitely not making it up and I am not delusional. I am the one who was there by his side over the yrs - all 17 of them. I knew this man and none of you did, but then I didn't really know this man did I? But I knew him better than anyone else. Finding some of his secrets such as the John Collins ID and his admission of having been in jail - helped me to understand him more during those last 5 yrs...but nothing changes what he showed me and what he told me thru out the 17 yrs marriage - things that I do NOT feel that I am mis-interpreting, In any given incident - everyone will have a different view of certain facts and what these things mean. I can't take you into my mind and my memory - and inside of this man who told me "I'm Dan Coooper". All I can do is relate what I do know and what I can surmise or guess beyond that. Things I have learned about Duane along with the many strange co-incidences that came to the surface...lead me down only one road. I cannot take the physical evidence out of my memory and I don't know what happened to it. Maybe someone needed to have checked out the man who bought the van. If there was money in that Van would you have told the FBI about it if you had already spent it (remember they didn't talk to him until 2 yrs after he bought the vehicle)? The friend of Duane's still stands by his story that he told Pasternac in 2000 - that Duane had 50K in cash - several different demominations. There is also a mention of 50K he had put away mentioned in a letter from 1990. Strange that the money is mentioned in a letter of 1990 ( I did not even read this letter until a few days ago - I just didn't want to go back to that time). All of this regarding the money, the ticket, the stub, the bag, an unexplained airline ticket charged to the credit card, his doing a disappearing act on his friend for 2 days leaving the friend to run the concession all by himself in Tallahassee - all of this during the time right after Duane obtained a drivers license with his alias on it. If you were me what would you think when he tells you 5 yrs later that he was Dan Cooooper? How would your have felt if you wife didn't grasp who Dan Cooper was when she was the last person you could tell? If you were in that wife's shoes 1 yr and 2 months later when she accidental finds out who Dan Coooper was - what would you think? What would you believe? I am not asking any of you to believe Duane was Cooper - but what I have asked for is your help. Such as what Snowmman did regarding Ed Huran. The Ed he found was not the Ed I had been looking for. I had found that Ed before, but you never know when someone will come up with something new. Anyone is free to make their own case regarding what they think Duane did. I am the one who was there by his side for 17 yrs.

Ok Snowmman - now you know how I feel, but I don't resort being as offensive as you get when you get our of sorts. Before this forum gets shut down I want to clarify something. Reply> As I said before, you are "one-dimensional" Everything below except the spelling was you posted already... and you think Sluggo has come to your defense. You're in for a surprise. Always one- dimensional! I met Ed Huran in 1978 - he was working for American Income in Co. at that time. The first time I met him he was ill. Then there was a convention with a date on the back of the pictures 1981. I really don't remember when or where the picture was made - but the pictures in the set are a convention. Duane did go back to American Income for a short period of time later on - so this is where the picture came into things. There was a high ranking official in some of the pics - who had the nick name Kissy - because he liked to kiss everyone. I remember that but not where the picture was made - location wise. My first contact with Ed was in Denver - when Duane went for his medication. The second contact was the convention 1980 or 1981 - location unknown. I did ask Ed how his health was at that time and he seemed to be doing well, but still had problems with his diabetic situation. This is when I took his picture and( he was very reluctant to my doing that.) I had no other exchange with him during the entire convention. Hope that clears the Ed thing up. Knutsen or Knutson - I just know it was a name mention to me by Duane when we were in WA before we got to Seattle. He pointed down a road - the said there was a tavern there - this was Dollar Corner. He said we were not going there, but he used to know this man there. WELL, there is a Tavern there and I was there in 2001. If the guys were not bullshiting me there was a store there which was at one time was owned or run by a man with this name. So Duane didn't lie about that but I could never find anything out about this man. If someone wants to help that lives in Washington - check the property assessors office for anyone owning property there by that name or the records office for anyone having owned or run a business by that name in Dollars Corner. In 1971 - it may have had 5 building so it wouldn't be a lot of work for someone living there with time on their hands. I will even pay for your gas and time.

I already raised the possibility that Duane's "revelation" and his trip with Jo, apparnet notation in the book etc may have stemmed from the fact that he was looking for Cooper long before we all were. Reply> This has legs. A LOT of private citizens were looking for Cooper or any trace of him, beginning 1972 then trailing off into the 1980s. Duane would not have been alone or unique in this. The discovery of the placard brought one resurgenece of searching. Then the money in 1980 shifted attentions to Tina Bar and its surrounding area - Tosaw was there again last summer. Americans are search-happy. The media plays its role in keeping the mystique going. Plus, for many its just fun.

Reply. I agree. But... it has been long rumored there was a search of the Scotton-Orchards area years ago. (and then another search years later!?) I first got wind of this (years ago) from family at Vancouver. I even got a postcard asking me up! I laughed receiving the postcard. My wife actually had to ask: "You arent going are you?". It was total BS in my life at the time. I then later confirmed the story through a relative, but thought to myself: "so what" and here I am today no worse for not having gone on a wild-goose chase. Who knows if there really was a search. Who knows what was found. One question at the time settled it for me. "Grandma, is it a settled area?". She said yes. I laughed and thought: "well then what in hell would I go for." Obviously others were looking and would continue to look, and what special skills would I supply? The whole was absurd to me and finally convinced my grandmother was doing fine, I did not go up. Then it came around a second time. 10 years later? The same thing again... the same area. rumors. It did finally occur to me something was wrong. I mean they had looked up near Merwin Lake and now they are down near Scotton Corner and Orchards ... what is going on? They must have figured out they searched the wrong place, in the first place! Now they are on track, finally. And, people will continue to look until ... who knows how long. Those were my thoughts. Also let me remind, after Sluggo published his New flight path someone surfaced here with a rumor 'I hear they are searching the Orchards area' and I laughed reading that. I waited for somebody to reply with something concrete but nobody did. I fully expected Sluggo to pursue that immediately but he didn't. I wondered if he PM'd the guy behind the scenes and was hot on the trail, to go join the ground search, but alas nothing more was posted, and I waited and waited, still nothing. Maybe I should have PM'd the guy to find out what he was talking about. Was he talking about the first ground search, the second, or a new third. I still don't know. Sluggo takes this all too seriously, just like I do! Sluggo will be ok. Or he can go screw his cat! Geoeger

I feel the need to step in here. This is tough for me, so please be kind in your response. I have spent many hours pouring over topo maps with Jo. Unless you have been face-to-face with her, and you have given her freedom to “free associate” about her “beliefs”, you can’t pass judgment on her assertions. Jo has a story to tell. I don’t think it’s the story she “thinks” it is, but it is an amazing and compelling story just the same. Without making any judgment on Jo’s assertions, I feel like I can make a few observations. The places Duane took Jo on the “memory lane tour” are astonishingly congruent with the areas I (Sluggo) have previously identified as important areas, all based on my “modified landing zone” and considering the “lost minute” and Flight Crew descriptions. NOTE: “Astonishingly congruent” does not mean that I attach any significance to the coincidence. I let Jo tell me (by tracing a path on the topo maps) where she “thought” she and Duane went on their trip. The area she ID’ed as the ‘Tower/shed” is within the area that I have ID’ed as the actual LZ. This is in the Brush Prairie area 2.5 miles SE of the BTG VORTAC. (Near a mobile home park and the Bethel Cemetery). The area she ID’ed as Duane’s “tower/shed was 1.5 miles East of there. A pipeline is 0.6 mile east of that point. What I am saying is, that when you let Jo show you (on a map) where she “thinks” Duane took her, it is a reasonable fit to what we “think” we know about Cooper’s landing zone. I anxiously await the results of the “money team”. I think we will find that Cooper landed in the Orchards/Brush Prairie area. IF this is true, it will lend credence to Jo’s story. I am currently working on a hypothesis that has Duane was a participant in a search for Cooper in the Orchards area. (I have found evidence that the FBI searched this area (in 1972 - 1975) without any publicity.) I think Duane became somewhat obsessed with NORJAK after this experience. This may have led to Duane’s “death-bed” revelation. Reply: I will snip everything below but may address it. I have also suggested Duane became obsessed for some reason with the Cooper affair and that was the basis for his death bed 'confession'? if that's what it was. Jo, however, has specifically denied that is what happened. Jo has presented a vastly different case, complete with accusations against all kinds of people, the FBI, Larry, ... etc. Jo has never presented her case as a "what-if" but as a dead certainty for 13+ years. She now has a witness the Hotel Clerk has sworn an official statement in behalf of one 'John C Collins' who was Duane's stolen alias, checked into the hotel where the clerk was working, and stayed on or around the time of the hijacking of Flight 305...' That, my friend, is all Jo Weber's work and her statement of the truth to the best she says she knows it. That is no Hypothesis! Jo has always operated on the premise and claimed: "Duane Weber was Dan Cooper, and no other". That is not a hypothesis but an assertion of fact. Now, I posted about train tracks west of the Orchards area, but that information was known years ago. Yes there were rumors about an FBI ground search of that area. None of that information is new. You see details Jo has provided as "Astonishingly congruent”. I see Jo's details as "plausable" and nothing more because we do not have the facts which would prove Jo's details to be anything more than a guess. If they were Duane's guess given to Jo, then they are two guesses removed. If the whole thing was a delusion on Duanes' part then anything he said could have been no more than a guess ..... and he and Jo both then join the rest of the guessers in this case! If Duane was part of a search in the Orchards area, then that changes everything. Was he physically able to do this, kidney disease and all? For man that was supposedly very sick, he sure gets around. And if you remove the shack, and the tracks, and the easement road/path, then what do you have left of the Jo Weber/Duane Weber story? That anyone could have harranged the FBI and others the way Jo Weber has for the last 13+ years is damned near beyond the pale, in my book. All because she merely wants to know the truth about a husband ? There must be more to this! Tell me there is!? Or do I have the wrong impression and cant' read written when its wrote, as Popeye said? Georger