georger

McCoy was a VN vet and skydiver, so it's not a bad profile. Part of the appeal of Christiansen and Gossett as suspects is that they both have parachute experience. The armed services reduced their number by quite a bit at this time. Example - the 6th SFG was deactivated in 1971. There were probably some career people at Fort Lewis that left the military about that time. People with the skills and knowledge of the area. Someone with 20 years in the military, no savings, and on their way out... It would check a lot of boxes. Reply> and Iv been thinking about how a person selects a mode of escape, which parachuting was, or was it more (a thing in its own right)? Was it fashionable by '71? (goes to the copy cat idea). Snow has already covered some of this, but there must be more to this. Was it a choice based on skills alone? We have no firm data on that except Sluggo believes Cooper had a well signed plan based on knowledge. Was it a choice based on efficiency/less chance of apprehension. Was it a choice based on probability of success given several factors, for Cooper personally. Was it a psychological choice, a pact with himself willing to risk suicide (to make a statement?). He could not have chosen a specific drop site but only a drop zone? These are some of the factors which come to my mind. Ckret has delivered a breath of fresh air. Tov Miod! G.

(Sins of omission...) do you hijack aeroplanes though?? No, and I don't know who does. None of us do. So there's no distinguishing factor there for us. None of us have secret knowledge that brings us closer than others to hijackers. However, even though I'm whuffo, my probes have convinced me of the lack of knowledge here about '60s era skydiving. Sure some people jumped then, or know about it. But we don't have the full coverage that would give us data about "possible Coopers". For instance: 1) How many schoolteachers, non-engineers, etc were sport jumping '62-70 in the WA area? 2) How were jump clubs organized on USAF bases in southeast Asia and Vietnam from '62-70? 3) How many civilians jumped at those clubs? 4) What kind of US civilians were present in southeast Asia in '62-'70 that would be mid '40s in '71...like schoolteachers, USAID, or US non-military support programs. 5) I focus non-US because of an assumption of good US FBI coverage. But it's obvious that the search was lame or the data gathering bad. So the same questions apply to WA area '62-'70. 6) For each year within the '62-'70 period, what percentage of civilian jumpers used surplus gear, and non-steerable canopies. Split that between US and Southeast Asia. Note we have zero data on whether the FBI investigation covered all of that or not. 1000 suspects doesn't sound like a lot to me, especially when guys like Duane and some others are representative of "the list" I actually just laugh when you make it sound like "lit" would be off base. There's absolutely nothing that would say it's off base. I laugh at the relatively narrow understanding of Vietnam. (actually it's not funny, and I wasn't there). Orange1: Do you have data on the backgrounds of civilian jumpers from '62 to '70? Especially ones that would be mid-40's in '71. What do you think the breakdown is, for their "employment". We can fully assume some kind of military background like WWII since most males of the right age would have had it. The only reason "engineer" was brought into the subject was a perceived access to information about Boeing 727's? Right? That betrays a stunning lack of knowledge about how information was created and distributed and maintained in the early '60s, say. (to say that "the knowledge" somehow points to "engineer".) I hijack threads though! All good points but Im guessing a demographer would say such stats were not available in the 60s. There was a Bureau of Vital Statistics in the 1960s which kept some obscure stats. (Their stats played a large role in the building of the Dictionary of Occupational Titles which became a central document for policy making & funding by the mid 1970s. The document was used under Nixon to decommission many government programs; little known fact, including some of the very people and agency programs which were working on the DOT!) Inferences from vital stats on record at the time might be assembled to estimate some of the subset catagories you mention, but it is 37 years late. But you wont know unless you ask the appropriate agencies. I always come back to the time Mucklow spent with Cooper and what they talked about. Surely it wasnt all spent in silence? That, to mind, would be one of the best guides as to who Cooper was, or was not, as compared to a Gunther-Duane-Jo connection which now suggsts literature background? And Jo's post above says she's been "sitting on" Duane's high society connections! Whoopie Dee! If anything is pursued here under the current regime, it should be why Gunther never published further (even a magazine artikle) about 'further developments in the Cooper case', once Jo had hit the scene with Duane's story? I have a feeling he ran from Jo. In any event, he said nothing further in print? Did Pasternak interview Gunther? Why didn't Pasternak refer to Gunther? There are answers there that bear on this matter. I am suggesting the world is not as one-dimensional as Joe would have us believe. Keep in mind. Jo is only searching for the truth. Jo is fair & balanced, on this channel. Bring in the Geico ad! G.

Rep: they dont look related to me. attached -

He did make notes in Red pen and with a thick point pen he liked to use, but I have pencil notes just like the scribbled notes in the book in other items such as business logs and many other handwritten pencil items. I have waited Patiently for the FBI to produce the lightly penciled envelope that was mailed a few miles from where Duane's sister lived - BUT, they do not seem to be able to find this - just like the cigarette butt. I have never posted anything but the "toutle page" - there is a complete sentence in another part of the book. With the toutle you have ONE word even though some of you tried to say there was part of it cut off and other writting there - "Toutle" was the only handwritten item on that page. Part of the page did not scan - but nothing was there that was not in the original book. The ther page is waiting for the FBI and others to WAKE up. If you think I am going to put everything out here for the lurkers we have, to write a book you got another guess coming. I have been used and used, but I still hold things. I am getting ready to mention one of those things since Georger walked right into it. The Smorgasbord - Grand Court - Order of the Amaranth - State of New York. Not research just something I have sat on - waiting and you opened the door. Thank You, Georger. Reply> Thank you. Its not mine to prove, but yours. It's not mine to prove or even deal with, in any event. And, if you check the record, Jo, I am the one who suggested a Catskills Borscht Belt connection for you and Duane a long time ago. You as much as denied it. Now you require it! How's that for luck. If this link with Max Gunther is as solid as you now claim - lets forget youve never mentioned any of this in any forum before - why when Gunther was informed by you of your evidence didn't he pick right up on this and issue a national best seller. It was in his power to do so. It was in your power to do so through Gunther. Why did reporters at the NY Times etc miss the connection all these years? Maybe you have just written Geoff Gray's book for him. Don't let me discourage you, as if I could. G.

Rep: you be the judge.

Well at least we're getting facts now! Reply> For me it is sentential structure as a reflection of linguistic thought patterns. There is a mismatch for one. Intellectual ideas are being written in poor English. It's a little like a 3rd grader writing about Relativity, that is so "meaningful" to him personally. How meaningful, can relativity be, to a third grader? But the sentential grammer is rather clear. It looks Germanic. Heavy use of qualifiers (particularly, partly, partially) at the beginning of the letter just when the author is seeking to establish a presence and a persona. That is very German. Then the use of rather long qualifying phrases in the middle and at the ends of sentences, all parsed by commas. All suggestive of German sentential thought phrasing. Is this the guy who said, "Get the plane on the road!" if Cooper said that? Gunther is German. Cooper looked Mediterranean. G.

Reply> At first I was unclear about (which or how many) Max Gunther was being spoken of. I did not asociate the DB Cooper gunther with Zurich Axioms gunther, but there may be a parallel now that the association is tied and I think that has to be taken seriously. We have a writer biting off diverse topics with some underlying general themes. Common to all is a certain lack of criticality, which of course was what the economics-Gunther (Axioms) got attacked for. Suffice it to say the Max Gunther of the Axioms never made it into the Chicago School of Economics, or Havard, or any place else in formal academia - except as a sick and perverse joke! But, he did make his way into Reagan's White House, through Stockman. Sean Hanity still talks about Gunther from time to time! That is the Gunther I was thinking about. That he also writes the book about Cooper is just one rat in his witches stew. Whatever Gunther was holding himself out to be he was no economist. (I was best friends with an economist and you are no Economist, Max!) Not only were his socalled axioms not even his own but his fathers, a banker, but he never spelled out (or knew!) what premises the axioms flowed from. Max did not even know axioms require premises, because as a formal matter it is premises that generate 'axioms'. More Jesus-on-the-toast! What Max is passing down is his father's folk wisdom, passed off as "formal economic principles". Well. "Knee bone is connected to thy bone" is not formal economics. The same year he publishes his Cooper book because like his father's folk banking wisdom, Max had also been holding on to another family treasure - Cooper's letter. Dare I say: FRAUD? He does appear to be a "playboy" just as critics of his socalled Axioms panned. He's playing with econmics and he's playing with Cooper. Very likely he dosn't know the difference and does not care. That Jo Weber would spend one minute on Gunther shows where her head is. That both would spend time together shows where both their heads are! And why is any of this important? Because there are still people who believe we ever landed on the Moon! Max Gunther would be the last person on Earth the real DB Cooper would write. Georger.

Reply: He goes at some length to establish that that Cooper hijacked an aeroplane due to male rejection by females, cultural-economic male usurpation, and probably ________ envy (an anotomical part of the female I won't name). All in a parachute with lofers on. How fashionable! So, where was Cooper's Wall Street Journal, to complete the image. Had to get out before 10:00pm PST to go dine with the Queen-mum. Cooper was educated and literary and backed causes. Maybe Coopr was a medical doctor!? All Zurich trained hijackers are. Karl-Jung, Levi- Strauss, Meitner, and all that... You know many of these people's heirs live in the Canary Islands today. Maybe go investigate there. Somebody might know something about our Cooper. The money was not important. It was all a lark. So, in this scenario how come Jo and Duane didn't wind up in the Canary Isle's also, living alongside Martha duPont and Sheeknee Canoe? (You know they all had summer homes at Mackinack Island where there were hotel clerks also!) The letter is fragmentary, incoherent, and just the kind of thing an exile from Paradise would write. The only thing missing is mention of Divine Right. And all epics of history are written on a cheap typriter. Cooper, the literary figure. Both the Axioms and DB Cooper in 1985. Both borrowed. (he's just the editor of great people and great ideas), like I am. I recognise a cousin of the same feather and Duane and Jo are welcome in my parlor any time - just bring potato salad & tea! The Dux secret code breaks down as follows, but I admit Im an amateur at this. Fig 1 shows the whole thing. This seems to consist of a D, an x, and a fishhook thing resembling part of a u without any serif (sp?). Fig.1A shows the D and x removed and Fig 1B shows the flotsam left which is what, I do not know. But if you take the junk and clean it up and forget off axis line through D you get what faintly resembles the right lower segment of a capital D (fig 2) Now, if you take that segment and insert it over a capitol D brought to bear from elsewhere in the letter, the fit is pretty good. (See fig 3.) And, if you downsize the whole thing the fit is even better. (fig 4). So, my analysis is the "x" was written over the "D", then somehow the maker tried to back space to print a second D over the first to enhance it a second time but got impatient and typed D before the carraige had stopped moving and viola! You get a fragment of a capital D off to one side. The original intent looks like an "xx" for kissy-kissy. But since D is above x on the keyboard the author misstruck resulting in both D and x. Then the correction snafu. Which means the author had no correction paper, or the author was Duane!!! D and B spell DB Cooper. And there you have it! This letter is authentic and written by D = Duane, in a Freudian slip. The logic is flawless and the forensics impecable. On to the next case. (in the Canaries) Georger

Reply> Question: is this the same Max Gunther who wrote "The Zurich Axioms" ? Yes, but that's obvious from a simple Google search. Why do you ask? R: I could find hardly any connective tissue on him at Google. Zurich Axioms in '85 and Cooper book a bit earlier after a long wait. Find him described as a "nitwit playboy" in one critique. His work in the area of female rejction of males and cultural male rejection is not even mentioned in places I would expect to find it. The axioms are not his but passed down from his father, a Zurich banker. His father was also into the occult - cosmic-mind hypothesis finally formalised by writers at the Zurich School for Psychoanalysis. (will supply name of principle advocate later but it peaked in the 80's ... Carl Sagan was interested in the idea). The guy strikes me as an opportunist and an idiot, but whatever sells. Dont think he is seen as a major writer or theorist, unless Im missing something? I must be missing something here ?

QuoteI was reviewing some more scans from the Gunther book that Sluggo forwarded to me. It's interesting that the Clara letters refer to Cooper as "Dan" with the quotations. But the two much earlier letters supposedly from Cooper himself, are signed D.B. Cooper Clara also used "Dan Cooper" My take on it, is that the Gunther letters from Clara had nothing to do with the Gunther letters from Cooper. (edit) There were many phone calls with "Clara"? It's possible Gunther asked on the first: "Is this Clara?"...of course you would answer "Why yes of course, how did you know?". Basically, all the Gunther stuff seems like nonsense. If the first letter was really Cooper, it seems hard to believe that the title of the 1962 magazine article would have been remembered so perfectly. Reply> Question: is this the same Max Gunther who wrote "The Zurich Axioms" ?

Dropzone lurker who posts on parachute matters at Dropzone but has avoided our DB Cooper Forum, is evidently working on a new book about the Cooper case, he says He is GEOFF: Gray, Geoffrey. "Unmasking D.B. Cooper." New York Magazine. October 22, 2007. http://nymag.com/news/features/39593/ Evidently Geoff has been working with Agent Larry Carr behind the scenes. Its news to me! Im sure its news to everyone here. Congrats to Mr Gray on his forthcoming book. When do you plan to publish your book? Georger

Thanks to Georger, Sluggo and the rest of you citizen sleuths. Thank you Larry. And to the rest of you too. Now, get the hell out of here and go enjoy Thanksgiving and the time off. It's our privelege. Sincerely, Georger

I posted photos of Raleigh packs, I believe from the period way back in the thread. So while I may be an asshole, I've always thought I acted as a good thread member here, in a narrow way. We all have different contributions. I only judge people in this context based on the skills displayed, resources provided or entertainment value! I really don't care about the rest of their lives. If the rest of their lives provide value for this thread, then show it here. And anyone can get offended about anything, as we all know. So I don't care if I offend anyone. If I worried about that on the internet, there are so many ways to offend, there would be nothing left for my brain to do. And the only "respect" anyone deserves, is respect earned within the thread, for whatever reason. Everyone is godlike in some other context. No reason to try to claim that somehow should be a claim for unearned respect here in this context. This is the public sector. People are who they are. I have no problem with you or I am an asshole too! Now two of us. Happy Thanksgiving. George

All valid thoughts. The probabilities involved in this case have been in my mind from the start. Really going back to '71 just after this happened. It was the probabilities people discussed most, around me at the time. But these probabilities have always eluded me. I'm not talking about some crude Drake equation (is there life in NGC0935_Cooper). When Safecracking joined I thought he might give it a shot, and perhaps he has? So finally last week, there i a phone message on someone's recorder who is a noted probability statistician who I am trying to entice into this. He hasn't replied. He "probably" is sitting laughing. Or, a year from now another new book will appear: 'Probabilities That Cooper Only Knows!". In the realworld its not quite like it is on TV. Any result would be endlessly debatable. It would take someone with a lot of hard facts particular to 11-24-71 itself. NWA (Soderlind?) tried and we know where that went. P(c1 c2 c3 ... cn) = ? Georger

BuzzardNest, Hey, the more exposure the case gets the more likely that someone previously silent or uninvolved will decide to come forward with some real evidence. There is no such thing as bad publicity on a cold case. All publicity is good. We are feeding on ourselves here, we need fresh meat. Face it, Ckret, due to his FBI credentials, will have way more mainstream credibility and interest than any of us could possibly hope for. It is only natural that he will be sought out by the media on matters regarding Cooper. I don't see him quitting his day job just yet. The Hollywood stuff is just part of his FBI Cooper job at the moment. Actually, Ckret is far less of a media hound than other FBI agents assigned to high profile cases. Remember the Patty Hearst/SLA case? You couldn't turn on your TV in the evening from the kidnapping in Feb 74 to her capture in Sept 75 and far beyond without seeing Charles Bates, head of the SF FBI office on your TV screen as a talking head. There was even a docudrama about the case as seen through his eyes starring Dennis Weaver as Bates. Bates rode the Patty Hearst case long after her capture, trial and conviction. Defense lawyers jokingly referred to him as SAC Hearst. Although I join in the kidding about Ckret going Hollywood on us, actually it is a good thing for the case. We are only a few dozen obscure people on this specialized low publicity forum. National TV exposure will bring Cooper to the attention of millions. If only one of those millions of viewers comes forward with some useful evidence it is worth it. Until I see photos of Ckret hanging with Brad Angelina or Paris, I am going to cut him some slack on this media stuff. I won't stop kidding him or asking him to put me on the A list for the clubs where the stars hang out. 377 and the Turchie_Puckett angle isnt bad either. It brought forth a connection in the Kaczynski case. Kaczinski however was in hiding already forced by public awareness to keep a low profile. Excerpts of anything Cooper actually said or any peculiar-unique things he did (or said) from the files, might be an opening for someone in the public. And these horrible mug shots have to go! Get a good artist to produce mug shots which have realism and look like a living person! Good photos of the tie and clip and anything else. A check list of basic facts (with photos!), eg. "He smokes Raleigh cigarettes" coupled with a good large size photo of a packof Raleighs. That kind of thing. It came down to the brother recognising two short lines in the whole manifesto, that snagged Kaczynski. Ted's brother had seen/read the same two lines or something very much like them years before. Or, wait and see if the hotel clerk comes through! Turn Turchie and Puckett lose on Jo and the hotel clerk and get that over with once and for all! Georger

nah. even Turchie and Puckett now have jumped on the latest bandwagon of saying "no, everyone is wrong now, we gotta do something different" Reply> Could look in the KGB archives. Their section on French-Canadian-American-employed dissidents open to defection might be a place to start. Georger

Reply> we never discussed 'up a tree' : http://tinyurl.com/6e42na Seattle Times staff reporter A wanted felon from Marysville involved in a police chase Sunday was arrested early this morning after officers tracked him to 60 feet up a tree. According to the Snohomish County sheriff's Office, the suspect was spotted at a McDonald's restaurant in Marysville around 6:30 p.m. Sunday. When officers arrived, he fled in a rental car and police followed. The chase continued north through Marysville, south on Interstate 5, eastbound on the Hewitt Avenue Trestle, and north on State Route 9. It ended on the 9100 block of State Route 9 after the suspect ran over a spike strip, police said. The suspect then ran into heavily wooded area, yelling to police "shoot me." He was later found to be in a tree. Crisis negotiators from the sheriff's office were called in to "achieve a peaceful resolution," police said. Finally, at 2:15 a.m., the suspect climbed down from the tree and was arrested. He was treated for hypothermia at a hospital before being booked into the Snohomish County Jail. He claims his name is DB Cooper." Georger

That party is NOT until the last Saturday in this month...I think that is the 29th. I just made a phone call to confirm it. Agent Larry Carr makes mistakes and the FBI makes mistake. I am also not a fake - I assure you there were better things I could have done in my last yrs. I am not the kind of person who would intentiionally put myself into some kind of situation. I have only one driving need - to know the truth. I don't care what he did - I just know what he told me. Make fun of me and do your best to make me look like a fool - NO ONE CAN TAKE AWAY WHAT I DO KNOW. I have already told you that when he told me what he did - that he got upset because I couldn't understand what he was talking about - I didn't know who DAN COOPER was. This can be proven because of the individuals I spoke to after Duane died and one yr a 2 months later on May 24, 1996 when I found out who Dan Cooper was. If the nurses had not thought he was upset and started to give him medications he may very well have asked for an attorney or witness. He did talk to a ARMY Chaplain who was with a family member in the hospital - he refused to talk with the Hospital Chaplain who told me he did not remember much about Duane or what they talked about. It was several yrs later that I found that chaplain. I have NO reason to perpetrate a fraud regarding Duane. If it had been your spouse who made this confession and because of other things he had said over a 17yr period of time and then further investigation into his past revealed even more questions - Would you have decided to NOT ever tell anyone? Or would you not have wanted Answers? Judge not my motives but your own. The detailed records I have of how I have gone about this - show that I had NO motive other than to know the truth. Sure there were offers - but I didn't take those offers - I was more interested in the truth. If I had been as calculating as others are claiming - would I not have taken those past offers and why would I give up my life to fight this? If it was money or a book - I could have done that yrs ago - I turned them down because ALL I wanted was the truth and that if a story was done about Duane that it would be truthfully told - not a bunch of fiction. Reply> no one is making fun of you Jo. Have a good Thanksgiving. George

I can have the jet ready. Watched an episode on the Unibomber tonight. That Lone Wolf profile. I think it applies in this case. Given our mutual interest in language it came down to the language in his manifesto, his brother's wife's persistence, and finally just two phrases in the whole text his brother recognised, that snagged him. Public exposure worked. Also - finder of the placque Carroll Hicks, died in 1999 at Kelso, Wa. in case that hasnt been mentioned. Georger

Like beating a dead horse and having it win the Kentucky Derby? BTW, Galen's book won't come out until Spring, according to the author himself. If it isn't on Oprah or Letterman or Leno, it isn't significant. I don't think Jo is on their guest lists just yet. Been thinking more about the jump. Assume Cooper was not a jumper. He'd probably leave the step with his hand or even both hands on the ripcord handle and pull as soon as he jumped, before slowing down to terminal velocity, which is the wrong thing to do, especially with an unsleeved C 9 canopy. The C 9 is tough as hell (made for jet ejections, but those systems used seat drogues and other decelerators or delay timers) and wont fail, but you will get a truly horrendous body busting opening shock. Skydivers have had their aortas detach from slammer openings. You land dead. Have we looked into whether that might have happened to Cooper? If he went into the river dead, the chute could easily snag on something firmly affixed to the bottom that would prevent the harnessed body from being washed downstream. Nylon takes a long time to fail in the absence of UV. Silt could bury the snagged body and gear. After a while, the money container might disintegrate or open and allow some bills to get washed away... What about the fatal opening shock possibility? not directly on point but interesting: http://www.butlerparachutes.com/pia99.htm 377 Good points. Some of this mentioned before. It is almost exactly what one of the Boeing people thought and did calculations on minus the aorta separation, but close. He focused on eyeballs, shoulder joints, intestines, and ............... but the younger guys and possibly Cossey seem to have a softer bias, if he got the chute open. A submerged chute snag is a real possibility we have very much in mind along with variations on that theme. Thanks, Georger

I don't think you're an ass, I just think, as we all need to at times, you need to step away from the computer for ten minutes before sending some of you're posts. It's not the content, the content is awsome. It's not whether you agree or disagree, I'd rather you disagree, it's the tone. Come on Snowmman, thats as much of an olive branch as I have ever seen from the FBI. Peace? And Georger, please watch the venom with Jo. Quade lurks and I REALLY don't want you or Snow banned. This place would really suck if either of you were banned. We need more Sluggo, now. 377 we are all night clerks to someone. Reply> Jo? Jo who? Oh! John C Collins-Jo. Got it. Venom? You have the wrong snake. Georger

Reply> All on the anniversay of the Cooper incident, of course. How convenient! Galen Cook's book just out. The Dream Team about to surface. Ckret's own plans involved. News media poised to do something. Do not let anyone ever accuse Jo and her accomplices of not knowing HOW TO COMPETE! Geoger

Reply> And the central question in my mind given the factual FBI background cited, is precisely WHO planted the idea of Cooper/Collins, in the mind of a dying man in a hospital room in Florida, JO or DUANE ? Ive watched Jo operating for years ever since this Revelation surfaced. I have watched and read her bullying, pushing her way around, intimidating, using evry device in the book - and these are not the practices one would normally attribute to a rational person with a righteous purpose, even if the FBI had screwed up - AS SHE CLAIMS. By all accounts including Jo's account, Duane spent his life HIDING the fact he was Cooper, then has this last-minute fit of conscience or whatever. Jo then turns around and publishes the very thing her husband wished to conceal? Why? How does this serve Duane? Who does this serve? Nowhere in Jo's citations of her story does Duane EVER tell her: "Go tell the world". Duane can whisper in Jo's ear or according to Jo, cry out for others in the hospital room to hear, but he can't call in a Notary Public or even a security guard in the hospital and tell them? Any impartial witness so he can "clear his conscience". It may have been JO who whispered in Duane's ear: "You are DB Cooper and I know it!". And Duane was responding to that! It has given Jo a very full life for the alst 10+ years. Duane is longsince dead. And the FBI and the World are left scratching their heads. Jo is no St. Paul with a message, any way this turns out! Georger

Perhaps the 200k was a sum that he thought, for whatever reason, could be raised quickly. Perhaps he thought that would be some sort of seed money for bigger and better jobs to come...who knows? Reply> I do not know who Cooper was. I can only take the actions attributed to him, as best people describe them, and try to reconcile his behaviors into a coherent model which fits the supposed facts. There comes a point (for me) where lacking facts I have to make certain assumptions in order to go forward. I try to test the assumptions I am making as new facts emerge. Ckret's experience shows through in this process, compared to most of the rest of us. Geoger