georger

The idea of Cooper being Canadian would answer a lot of questions about nobody recognizing him or reporting him missing. It also make the demand for "negotiable currency" make a bit more sense. Someone from the US would just ask for cash, but someone from out of the country?? Reply> good points -

YAAH! 4 or 5 times

Georger - Shaffner in a conversation with the artist and others has stated that - Cooper had more of a Latin complexion -not Olive as that was just a 1971 catch all phrase When pegged down on what was meant by Olive, she starts talking Latin and Indian. The composite artist needed more details. With the features and the color as is depicted in the artist drawing you get the feel of Indian features with a Latin hue. I don't know how to describe it - but the olive given was later referred to as ruddy to golden ash. These are things said to the artist and not what was used in the official statements or by the FBI. One journalist spent over an hour and closer to 2 hours with the artist and this is what came from the conversation. It would be nice if he could speak for himself, but he still has his notes which I am sure will not be shared with the public because of his employer rules. There was also a written documentation made outside of the official arena that quotes the "stews" as stating the complexion in more detail. Obviously the FBI mandates - olive, but olive is the color of my complexion and it is no where near the colors used by the artist. Reply> so? Im aware of Schafner's remarks. You have mentioned this before. Georger

Ja! - as per my profile data in the left hand column. That was a lot of detail.. thanks! I did assume Cooper would have been native English not French if he was Canadian .. adults can't lose their accents that well. Or maybe they can (Charlize Theron being a good example). I have a good friend who's Canadian (Vancouver) and he tells me it is really only the "out" (which would include "about") that is different from Americans. I'll take your point because Americans should be able to tell. However, I'm more convinced of that argument from say Tina, who spoke to him a fair amount, than the ticket clerk (not convinced "one way ticket to Seattle, Dan Cooper" is enough to pick up the differences.) Re airline personnel...maybe. I'm not convinced. I have spent a fair amount of time flying in the US and have been asked by airline personnel on a number of occasions where I am from when they hear my accent, with most initially assuming I am from the UK. And an American might not be sensitive to the differences between Australian and Kiwi, for example. I've learnt what to listen for, because Kiwis get bloody upset if you think they are from Australia. There is just about no identifiable difference between an English speaker from Zimbabwe or Swaziland and one from South Africa. But all that is asides. Ja! - I agree with everything above. Mark's comment good below. I dont know Dutch so wont even try. Sorry. Correct aboot die "about" at Vancouver BC. That's that strong Midwestern historical root in that part of the continent. Tina was from Pensylvania? Not sure of Schafner (maybe east coast too?)? Of course NWA HQ was at Minneapolis so "doncha know - yep golly gee, sure is doncha know". Too bad all the wrong people get to talk to Schafner and Tina and Himmslbach etal ...... I sure have some quesh'tions I cud ask em golly gee. (Ever seen the movie "Fargo" - its a classic you would love - just hilarious to a linguist). What gets me is this contrast between olive skin and no accent. That has to mean something. Black hair olive skin, general build. To me that would definately point Mediterranean, maybe Greek? Arab? Hungary-Turkey? A geneticist could have a field day with this! (Im sure Ckret knows that). Another side of this is the people on that plane were under a lot of stress so may have missed something. Even with that (stress) these were people rather attuned to the music in langauges. You would think if they heard something they would have remembered it, if it happened. I am still fascinated by he comic book angle. Dan Cooper. ??? But how does that cross with olive skin, not French that we have evidence of, and no accent? Apparently nothing in his notes either, as a clue? No mannerisms to speak of ? Brand of cigarettes? Raleighs. What olive skin people smoked Raleighs in certain markets in the 1960s? Wonder if the cigarette manufacturers kept sales stats, demographically ? Most people smoked only 'their brand' in those days - not like today where people smoke only the cheapest not what they would prefer. Here's a wild card: I wonder if he used the road flares in his fake bomb for his jump? Georger

Ah, the accent. Questions for you: I'm not American, but I can tell certain of the regional accents. To me, a Canadian accent sounds like a generic American accent (or, I guess, what an American would describe as without an accent, as Cooper was described) - but I'm not sure if it would sound like this to an American? I know there are some particular differences in the accents, like the pronunciation of "out", but would a Canadian accent generally pass for American in the US? Canadians hate being mistaken for Americans because of their accent, but in this case it may have served someone well... Reply> Generally, here is how it works. America is divided into 5 basic phonetic regions: Midwestern, North-Midwestern, Eastern, Southern, and all others. The American dialect closest to Canadian is northern-Midwestern ( ie. Wisconsin, Michigan, Upper Michigan called Yupper "ya know?", and North Dakota all influenced by Scandinavian dialects eg. the Sara Palin dialect). But French Candian is different from all of these, oui? French Canadian, like French spoken in France, stands out because it is based on a whole different phonological set vs. all other languages spoken on the North American continent. People who are raised speaking French as their primary language find it impossible to lose their French accent even after years of living elsewhere no matter what other language is spoken. French phonology is that uniue. If Cooper had been raised French Canadian his accent would definately have been picked up. The only exception to this are people raised in joint French-English or some other combination homes where French is NOT the dominant language. Even then evidence of a foreign language is often detectable, especially when people are under stress. A phonological or grammatical error may slip out under stress, and if that happened with Cooper I feel it would have been detected. So, we are probably talking about some American or Western Canadian accent. (Everyone has an accent of some kind as judged by listeners. Everyone comes from somewhere with specific linguistic patterns.) Canadian is divided into two large linguistic regions called French Canadian vrs. Western Canadian. In 1970 Western Canadian would have been most geographically pervasive called the standard Canadian dialect with a strong British influence (about=aboot, yes=ey?) with French Canadian centered mainly in Quebec and Ontario and in pockets throughout the rest of Canada. The Midwestern dialect generally starts in the western part of the Ohio valley and continues west to California, south to middle Missouri, north into So Dakota, through parts of Wyoming and Montana and Idaho, and then up to Oregon and into Washington (with pockets of other dialects in all these regions). My feeling is if Cooper had been caught saying 'aboot' or 'ehy?' or 'bloody' or some other British Canadian aphorism it would have been noticed quickly and Cooper would have been thought Canadian. Listeners will filter everything through their personal or shared dialectic, from the ticket agent to Tina and Schafner and anyone else who heard Cooper speak. In the case of the airline employees we have people who regularly heard a broad sample of human languages. Compared to the average person you would think these people would be sensitive to differences in people's language. If all of these people say "he spoke with no accent" then you have to conclude Cooper spoke in the same dialect as these people, or within the range these people would agree showed no signs of a special accent or dialect. These are people who described Cooper's phyical appearance well, and all agreed. These are people used to hearing languages. You almost have to take their "no accent" evaluation at face value. But, his physical appearance includes olive skin which is a bit unique. Mr. Sameness with olive skin who speaks with no accent. Olive skin crosses with several distinct linguistic populations and still he has "no accent". Hopfully I have said something that will help you think. BTW, where are you? Country is enough. Suid Afrika? Georger

QuoteThese bits have been covered before in various posts, but humor me please. (especially as I made a special effort to spell "humor" in the American way) Reply> very good post. I think these are good linkages. Possible add-ins: range of comic book distribution, someone who speaks with undetectable accent or good American accent, someone without a history of crime new to crime, ... I will think of a few more if you want. Georger

Their website advertising their book has prologue and a link to Tom's interview: "On November 25, 2008 there was a feature on KING 5 News annoucing new scientific information proving that the FBI has been searching in the wrong area for all these years. Click here for details. " I guess they can do that without permission. These people are contending Cooper had a sex change to escape detection and they were fiends with him/her/ or it. Will be in the National Georgraphic special on the Willy Wanka Channel. Somebody had to do it. Maybe they will be run out of town on their donkey and escape to Egypt with a bright star overhead ? Baruq Adonai!

QuoteFrom one point of view, we might view Cooper as a droid from some mindless bureaucracy, going whichever way higher forces dictated for him. (georger likes to push this model, I think). Reply> While I am a relativist, I will still hang somebody. Make no mistake about it.

And Georger states: Bullshit. You are the one who brought this all up twenty + times and expected the world to dance to your tune, so divvy up Jo. Pay your bill! Or declare bankruptcy. You claim Duaner chucked $27,000 into the Columbia wrapped in a paper package. Thats a sizeable wad of cash, in twenties. I measured it today. How did Duane hold the whole thing together with rubber bands? There must have been some LARGE rubber bands you havent mentioned so far. Im only trying to help. We will forget the other details for now. I dont want to press you (sob sob). I want you to STOP too! (sob) I am an old man too! (sob sob). I very much dont sleep these days, my back is weak, my legs all dried up and scales falling off my feet, I think I am having something but wot go to a doctor. I hate doctors. So have pity on me and make my last days rewarding, wont you? You aree great lady and your posts have meantso much to me, your valuable information. I have to take some pills so will wait for your information. I think my cata has cancer. Georger

Jo, I can tell you absolutely, positively and with COMPLETE authority, that the bills on Tena Bar had nothing to do with Duane and the bag your talking about. I am listening to all your evidence carefully and trying objectively to see if any of it fits into our investigation. In this particular case the question is answered. Now this is my test for you to see if in fact you really are accepting of new facts that prove Duane innocent or guilty. If you don't accept my answer, and continue to believe the bag is related to the money, it will color your other evidence from my perspective. Thanks, Tom I do not know what was in that bag (I can only speculate), but it was a very odd thing to do. The fact that he turned in his resignation the day after the article appeared in the paper in Ft. Collins Co. about the money being found seems suspect (I was unaware of that until some else made a connection between the dates recently). I know he disappeared twice on that trip for several hours at a time. One time was while we were at the Dalles - he was gone for several hours and came back soiled. The next time was in Seattle all afternoon. All of the places he took me to on the Columbia below and across from the airport tower. The places he took me to in Washington, to Lake LaCames and the hill above that and the farm across the lake, In Wahougual to a cememtary and then up the Washougal river to a trailer park - he told me about some kind of mining or caves further around that road but we turned around and went back to a road I now know was Coffey Rd and after a while we went North toward Battleground Lake to where the 2 towers and the shed used to be and the VOR thing...then South again toward I-5. On this trip he pointed out 2 airports or strips with one of those being on the road to I-5. In Seattle he took me to the back side of the airport - it was supposed to be a short cut (but with the map I realized it was not near our destination). Later he disappears for an afternoon coming back all giddy (he had not been drinking). The next day we head back to Vancouver and you know the about the site West of the airport tower on he Vancouver side and then big tank (some kind of business on the Columbia) getting in the car from there was the first time I had noticed the bag - West of Winterly Park (I did not see the park on that trip with him). Then to the bridge - right behind what used to be the Red Lion Motel. I am open to how the money got in the Columbia - but the things he told me and the things he showed me -that is not open to discussion at all. Those are things I know. What his little trips meant and what he did on that trip are my recalling the trip. They are strange events for a man who supposedly never lived in WA or worked there. Why would he tell me about burying something behind the shed where the tower used to be - in the middle of the woods on an unpaved and unused logging road? I need someone to help me add it up - help me understand why he knew this area. He used to know some guy around the Mt. Hood area from a statement he made on that trip, but that we were not going there. This was after he had been gone all that morning at the Dalles...this is around the time we crossed over to the Wa side. Reply> We have gone over this before. Many times. Nothing in the story has changed since its last recitation, except for Weber giving two slightly different accounts. One Weber version cites the unknown contents being in a paper bag - another Weber version describes unknown contents "wrapped in paper ... and I leaned over and got a rubber band for Duane towrap around the paper...". The location (Weber cites) was previously identified as Appel Park. Maps were provided showing that park, the nearest mile marker, all in relation to Tina Bar. The time of year and flow levels were noted, according to Jo's report and USGS flow data for the period Weber cites as being 3 months prior to the discovery of money at Tina Bar. Float times and flow rates established by SafecrackingPLF and USCE Hydraulic Engineer Jeffrey Bradely were taken into account. Conclusion: Given the size and description of the package with unknown contents provided by Weber it is 'undeterminable' if an unknown package could have flowed to Tina Bar (mile marker 97) from Appel park on the (approximate) date provided by Weber. (Without knowing the contents of such a package, float ad flow rates are undeterminable). Maps were provided showing the general flow characteristics from Appel Park to Tina Bar. It is not a straight flow path between the two points, as Weber insists it is. All objects entering the Columbia River from the area of Appel Park, or any other area, do not automatically flow to Tina Bar as a single fact of hydrology. If that were the case, debris would have collected at mile marker 97 for eons and the Columbia would stop at mile marker 97 and there would be a large damned lake there, instead of a unimpeded flowing river. Weber asserts her package may have consisted of $27,000 dollars of the original $200,000 ransom, leaving $173,000 stored in a bucket by Duane. Aside from the fact Weber's account is a late edition of earlier versions she told which did not mention actual dollar amounts or a bucket, Weber;s revision amounts to 1,350 twenty dollar bills. The Ingram find documented approx $6000 is known bills, with perhaps ?$6000 more in fragments or unaccounted for money? Nobody knows. This does not equate with the $27,000 Weber is contending. A $27,000 stack of $20 dollar bills is approx 12.5" high. If split, the bundle would be approx 6"x5.25". Common rubber band(s) which Weber said she supplied (one) will not fit around a bundle 12.5x2.5 or a split bundle approx 6x5.25". (Dimensions being used do not account for additional paper Weber says was also around the bundles). .............. the analysis was stopped here .... others can complete it if they like. Georger

as you know, Brian provided a variety of slightly different descriptions of the money configuration when found. One interesting one he used in a video was that they were like a piece of "petrified wood" which doesn't make sense. In another he says they were stacked, with a subtle implication maybe that would imply something about burial. But the "ball" idea you mention seems to jive with a "petrified wood" kind of idea. Could all 3 bundles have been part of this "wad"? Early on, when we had discussions on this with SafecrackingPLF, I remember an implicit assumption that the 3 bundles were just localized to an area. Unknown if contiguous in any way. We've never been clear on whether there was just one single clump, or multiple seperate bundles, at the find. If there are many brown bills, one might think that means the bundles were laying separated. since they would have to be separated to get the different exposure that would lead to browning? (assuming the browning effect doesn't penetrate more than 1 bill?) It's all very confusing. The bits and pieces of info we have (which is poor) don't seem to add up for the money find. (edit) Another odd thing, is that it appears that the 3 main bundles may have had equivalent extra wear on the "face" side of the bundles (assuming all faces oriented the same way), compared to the bottoms. This would be odd, since it would mean there was top wear that was different than bottom wear, and it was consistent on all 3 bundles? I'm guessing from the photos, but hopefully you see the question I have. Reply> You are placing questions on Brian Ingram he probably cant answer and never could answer. He was a kid at the time. His playmate with him was only 5! Its not like the money was found by a forensic team. Geoger

are you supposed to be a shrink or something georger? The subconscious mind always puts out its fears and desires simultaneously, when confronted with the unknown. Of course Cooper wants AK, don't we all? And he wants that $10 burger too! I think there were stereotypes being thrown around while also trying to deal with the technical and tactical issues. Maybe Alaska came out 'because 305 had been traveling north, Portland to SEA, and so logically fate must continue the journey north, or Cooper wants to go north, or Cooper wants to see the Corona Borealis!, or who knows why... ' unless, Cooper did or said something we dont know about that triggered Alaska as a possible choice? I just think the poster's original question is a good one. No, Im not an MD. Georger

Hey, who ever thought Patty Hearst would join her SLA kidnappers in robbing the Hibernia Bank in SF? Maybe Cooper's "deranged" mind was hoping for an accelerated Stockholm Syndrome situation? I can see him thinking: "I really dig Tina. We'll parachute into the wilderness together, build a hut and start a new life." Georger, haven't you had similar thoughts when on a long flight and being served your fourth bourbon by a gorgous flight attendant? 377 No. I always want to get home to my family. My goals are closer to home and things at hand.

Sounds out of touch to me also but he had long credentials. Sluggo looked into this. The shrink either had or went to do a lot of criminal profiling and became noted for it. The psychiatrist's evaluation came early. I think it weighed on Nyrop to tell everyone to cooprate. and on Scott who was very concerned about the welfare of his passengers and crew. The shrink's advice is based on what Cooper's notes asked for. The shrink took the demands at face value, ie more than one chute means he's going to take a hostage with him. Maybe Cooper thought his demands would have a large affect. Like is fake bomb. In another sense the shrink almost has to say something like this. If he says nothing and things go bad they will say: "Where was the shrink with sound advice!". Then the shrink's butt is on the line. Everyone walking a tight rope.

Reply> I have known a number of AK bush pilots and all were sane. One was nuts and lost his license, wound up doing maintenance work in Iowa. But that means nothing - not a good sample. Something brought AK up in somebody's corporate mind. Something triggered that speculation (and I want to know if it was based on something Cooper did or said that made them jump to AK as a possible destination). Or, they drew it out of their corporate heads at random........ all crazy people go to Alaska? It's these small things that sometimes turn a case in the middle of chaos. Georger

my profile says nothing about mental health or tech expertise: local connections Boeing info connections (needn't be a Boeing engr) skydiver/smoke jumper/paratrooper and maybe SE Asia experience. Georger, what facts make you so sure Cooper was "deranged"? What evidence do you have on this? 377 ask Ckret to explain it to you. In my world people dont hijack aeroplanes with a fake bomb, even in the '71 era. Fools might. Deranged people might. He said he had a grudge he had been harboring. Then he hijacks an airplane. What makes you think he isn't deranged? That he didn't shoot somebody and bailed? Georger

been over this a thousand times and Ckret has posted to these points - read past posts. what did you say georger? Im saying we have discussed wigs and grease and shoe polish on hair etc many times already - its very old ground. Ckret posted on this specifically... excpt for the sunglasses Cooper was not disguised.

Many soldiers went through Alaska on their way to Nam. I was in the Anchorage airport in 1969. There were soldier in jungle fatiques, everywhere you looked. I often wondered how many of them made it back.... Yours is an interesting line of thought. Alaska comes up in the transcripts as a possible direction Cooper wants to go ... Scott and others mention it briefly. Who came up with 'Alaska'? Why was 'Alaska'? Because all hijackers want to go to AK? Because AK offers wilderness for a jump? What brought Alaska into the mix? Was it a military connection somebody thought applied and if so why? Or is it just one more stereotype being applied by authorities who dont know Cooper at all? Cooper then asks for Mexico City! The total opposite of Alaska in direction. (kind of funny or is it?). Alaska seems to fit in a larger pattern of stereotyping with Cooper the real person doing almost the exact opposite of what "authorities" think Cooper is going to do, would do, or should do. It is almost as if these people were stuck in a rut of assumptions none of which turn out to be true, vs. simply riding with events and dealing with an actual hijacker in real time. This applies from NWA officials to the FAA psychiatrist, to Scott, to Himmelsbach ....... Rataczack in contrast just keeps working at his job saying little (that we know) but in the end Rat is the one with the most accurate testimony along with Tina. This whole event is full of 'Alaskas' which turn out to be wrong projections from corporate institutional stereotypical thinking and projecting. If you follow the same pattern, the real Cooper probably had nothing to do with Alaska, and Alaska must represent the very opposite of who Cooper was and what he was about... (just like they did figure out after the fact his bomb was a fake, but too late to matter). Did Cooper do something or say something to make them think Alaska as their first choice for his destination? Georger

Could "greasy" and "oddly black" descriptions be consistent with a cheap wig/hairpiece? Now THAT would surely have blown off during the jump. A bald guy walking around that night might not have aroused suspicion since he would not match the hijacker's description. Logic would dictate some sort of disguise beyond the sunglasses. A wig would be ideal if you were balding. Easily removed and instant transformation into someone who would not match the suspect's description. Would Cooper have been crazy enough to use no disguise other than the shades? The Cooper sketch showed up in newspapers and magazines all around the world and that was forseeable. If you were Cooper returning to your prior life you would not want to match any sketches of the suspect. You wouldn't want a Beatles wig that screamed fake. A high hairline wig/hairpiece would be ideal. 377 been over this a thousand times and Ckret has posted to these points - read past posts.

Reply> we are looking for someone who didnt necessarily have hands-on experience with the 727. The problem with cargo person is he would have known how to open the door. (Just like the FBI figured out the bomb was a fake, but not in time to matter. It comes down to very simple facts). Cooper is a deranged person. Not a high functioning engineer or tech type. He may be somebody on the periphery of experience with the 727 and its history and use. His real skills are on the parachuting end by his performance and witness statements.. and that experience may not be too great. Georger

Very interesting Snowmman. Good job. You dig deep every time, finding the veins of gold that I so often miss in my superficial Googling. This is the first solid info I have seen on who ordered the airdrop capability mods on 727s and I have been looking for a long time. The article mentions an enlarged exit which raises an interesting issue. Even if Cooper knew that the Boeing modified 727s could do airdrops, would that also mean that an unmodified passenger 727 could also do it? Might there be a door interlock that was disabled for the airdrop mod? To me that points back to Cooper having access to some Boeing info. I think he KNEW FOR SURE that the passenger 727 could be jumped. Just knowing that modifed Air America 727s could do it wouldn't be enough. If he had a good connection to Boeing info he'd know that the mods (enlarged exit, etc) were not essential for airdrop capability but just enhanced it. Reply> Well, KNOWING IT and DOING IT were obviously two different things then, for Cooper. He couldnt even get he stairs down! This indicates he had had lots of practice. Somewhere in your broad theorising you need to filter in a few hard facts of this case, maybe?. Georger

"He who asks questions only trains himself in asking questions" (Loa Tse)

But your guns are pointed the wrong way! The direction of flow has changed.

Its good work on your part no matter how you cut it - not that long ago "authorities" were say: "ah no, never happened . . . . " in true Jo'esque style. It bolsters the contention that any semi number of candidates could have known the 727 was a hijack opportunity. Georger Well now, the whole skydiving history question of "who was the first to jump a 727" is thrown up in the air. And the bragging rights for static lining a 727 too! I wonder if there were more jumps. It's not clear if all that footage was shot on one flight. I was thinking they wouldn't dump a full row of pallets, and two jumpers, on the very first test, would they? Oh, I found a website where a guy has a copy of the legal paper that John Willheim Productions signed with Air America to start work on the film. It was from 1969. All of the film seems consistent quaility, so I suspect it was all filmed after '69, the date of the paperwork. So it makes sense that what Leeker said is true: the filming was done somewhere in '70/'71. My random reading with morning coffee, stuff from the amazing dallas collection which we've mined before. This first url is for all the William M. Leary papers...accounts of Air America in Laos. Amazing details http://www.utdallas.edu/library/uniquecoll/speccoll/aamnote/aamnote.htm (this is accounts of spec ops in Laos '69-'73) http://www.utdallas.edu/library/uniquecoll/speccoll/aamnote/specop75.pdf Leary has names and talks about the personalities and interplay of individuals. It really adds depth to the history.