georger

There is one further account of Hancock at: A Traveler's History of Washington - Google Books Result by Bill Gulick - 1996 - Travel - 559 pages Checking the list, a Northwest Airlines clerk found that all the ... After the passengers had left, Alice Hancock, Senior Stewardess on the flight, ... books.google.com/books?isbn=0870043714... This account is slightly different from the usual accounts one reads of the Cooper hijacking. I cant vouch for its authenticity, but it does speak to the larger issue of a chronology and what each crew member was doing, including Hancock. Hancock and Anderson are crew members you dont hear much about. Both were married (Anderson had children). Both played an active role in press conferences and a few interviews after the hijacking but then fade away...

I find it difficult to believe the FBI allowed Ms Hancock to return to the plane for her purse. That would certainly not be allowed today. Note: I do not have the complete file of the information made available to the public from the FBI...therefore maybe Hancock was allowed to return for her purse. Alice wasnt off the plane before she knew she had left her purse. It was just a matter of her turning around and going back, asking Cooper's permission, getting the purse and leaving with Schafner waiting for her - G.

If you look at the transcripts it appears that Cooper was in the toilet when people were leaving. I have never heard of this Alice before, Georger? Source? Also -- i need to go back and check, but were the passengers told of the hijacking before they left the plane - for some reason I seem to think not. I know at first they were keeping the real situation from the passengers but not sure exactly when they were told what was going on. I also half recall someone wanting to go back to fetch something but not being allowed to - but I may be mixing this up with another incident. from Sluggo's website: The flight's pilot was Captain William Scott, 51, who had been flying for Northwest for 20 years. Also aboard were First Officer William "Bill" Rataczak, Flight Engineer Harold E. Anderson, and three flight attendants, Alice Hancock (the Senior Flight Attendant) age 24, Tina Mucklow, 22, and Florence Schaffner, 23. Mucklow and Schaffner each had less than 24 months in the air. Hancock's position was at the front of the plane. Except for the purse incident, she pretty much stayed at her position (observing) during the flight to Seattle and taking care of passengers.... I think she is mentioned once (maybe twice) in the PI Transcipt, called Alice. After Schafner got the note from Cooper, she showed it to Muckow (they discussed it briefly) then she went forward and showed the note to Hancock. Hancock and Schafner took the note in to Scott... Hancock spent most of her time tending to passengers and trying to keep a normal profile during the flight. She left the plane with Schafner at SEA. The stews were still on the plane after the passengers had been off-loaded. Then Hancock and Schafner helped bring things on board (food, chutes, money, charts, etc) ... then Hancock and Schafner were allowed to leave the plane; but Alice forgot her purse and went back for it ... Alice and Flo left the plane together and went down and were put in Al Lee's car, then transferred to another car and taken back to the terminal ... Ckret has more on Alice... There were several retrieval incidents: Alice going back for her purse, a man trying to get back in for his suitcase or something (tackled by Rataczak at the ladder and sent back), another guy trying to get back to the ladder but called back, ... the above is the best I can do ...

Did she ACTUALLY say it was tied off at the neck. I thought that was only one of the many books that depicted that. Is this ACTUALLY in transcripts or notes or statements taken? What she "actually" said was: "tied off the money bag and was in the process of tying it around himself... around his waste" One must conclude you tie off a bag by tying the open end off? The open end is the neck of the bag. But, there is a continuing debate about if Cooper used the original money bag or fashioned another container. Mucklow says "money bag". There is other testimony he emptied the money out and was trying to stuff it into the reserve chute container. Then evidently went back and used the money bag? The question has never been clarified ... Posts on this topic here include the following: Cooper cut cords with a pocket knife and used the pieces to bind the canvass bag the money came in. He never used any pieces of the canopy. Mucklow stated that she saw Cooper securing the money bag with more cut pieces of cord around his waist. (Jan 1 08 Ckret) Some info to recreate Coopers money bag. Cooper cut all of the line from the chest pack where it was connected into the pack, separating the chute from the pack. By the way, the rubber bands in the pack show no signs of wear. By separating the chute from the pack he must have planned to put the money in the container. When he realized it would not fit, he then cut two lines, one 14'5" and the other 14'6". He then used the line to secure the bag and according to Mucklow to himself. The bag was described as 12"x12"x9"(Ckret Jan 29 08) 12x12x9 and it weighs 22 lbs. 1296 cubic inches and it occupies 5.6 gallons of space. Rubber inside the pack left behind show no signs of wear... again, what causes rubber to become brittle? The Seattle FBI office apparently does not meet the climate conditions required. (SafecrackingPLF Jan 29 08) I bolded some interesting things. Scott talks about a makeshift waist pack, with money being transferred to it from the original bag. He wouldn't have seen this. So he's interpreting from something. Tina? This would be interesting if there's any truth to it, as it might mean the money arrived on the ground in something other than the bank bag?After cutting up a parachute, he emptied the sack of loot and began stuffing $20 bills into his makeshift waist pack. When Mucklow expressed astonishment at the huge pile of money, Cooper reached over and handed her a stack of bills. ``We can't take tips,'' she said. Instructing Mucklow to go forward, he told her to pull the curtain between the first class and coach sections. He said that she was to turn the lights down, and she wasn't to look back. (Snowmman Jul 8 08 From a speech by pilot SCott) Tina described the way he was dressed which the description from beginning to end never chaned. I believe if he had changed clothes she would have noted that. There is another item I have never posted or talked about much, thats Alice Hancock. When I have a chance on monday I'll bring her into the picture more. The only thing she adds to the mix is something I have not been able confirm through any of Tina's statements. Hancock got off in Seattle. As she was leaving she remembered she forgot her purse and went back to get it. It was near Cooper, she approached and asked his permission if she could retrive it. He said of course, I am not going to hurt you (I'll get her exact words in the morning). She said when she was getting her purse she noticed Cooper was wearing or in the process of putting on one of the chutes. If we combine that with Mucklow stating to the crew when she entered the cockit a few minutes after takeoff, "I think he is getting ready to jump." It lends to my theory of why he wanted the stairs down at takeoff, which is, he fully intended to jump just after wheels up. It makes me think Muckow must have, or the agent interviewing her glossed over the way Cooper was dressed as she last saw him. She stated he was securing the bag to his waist. Perhaps there was an assumption by both Tina and the agent that it was known Cooper had the chute on at this point and there was no need to document it, just the final securing of the money bag It would make sense that Cooper had he chute on when he was securing the bag to himself. After all, if he did not have the chute on, what would he be securing the bag to? (Ckret Mar 30 08)

and whatever Cossey told the FBI (over the years including a call with Ckret), it hasnt been made explicit (publically), except for the D-ring.? What Tina described sounds very basic, to me. That doesn't suggest a lot of alternatives or hardware available, or money storage options for some reason. He did ask for the backpack but never got it. He didnt complain but went ahead with the task. Why would anyone chose to use the money bag (typing it off at the neck) if you had other storage and carry alternatives - sounds haphazard to me ? My wild thought about the brown papaer bag has always been shoe polish - for his face on a night excursion (deployment), just like in EU in WWII !

Yes. its uniting all the tribes! Nothing but good in this -

Congratulations

Congratulations

Congratulations Georger! Post or PM a baby photo when you get a chance. There are few life events as joyous as the arrival of a healthy baby into a family that wants him/her. 377

attached are a few photos of stair configs for the 727 ...

BTW: I became a grandpa last Sunday afternoon at 4:02pm, PST. The baby and parents are doing very well - typical proud parents. The baby is just georgeous!

The NWA Transcript makes it clear they discussed methods of dealing with Cooper. There is nothing in these transcripts that says bluntly: 'kill the sob'. That only comes up later in personal interviews and Scott is far more reserved than Rat. It's always been a question in my mind how much these Transcripts are censured. The whole period immediately after Cooper bailing is left out - a period of intense communications, one would think. The information from this period is therefore lost, to us at least, which might include positional info ?

There was something in the transcript where they said the plane wouldn't be able to land with stairs down and then take off again - presumably precisely because of this. The CBS reporter makes quite a point of 'sparks flying' - to milk the drama of the situation. However, the reporter is standing right there in front of the rear stairs resting on the ground. You look beyond the reporter and the stairs dont look 'damaged'. In fact I never could see any damage at all. And no sooner does the reporter say 'sparks flying' motioning back at the stairs, you look at the stairs and cant see any damage, and... you realise people are going up and down these stairs, at will! Evidently those stairs are pretty rugged? (It brings into question the reporter's report. )

you are 100% right..

Ooh conspiracy theorists, sharpen your pencils!! -- The unpressurised request we have discussed before. The plane would have had to be unpressurised to open the stairs (as anyone who watched any airplane disaster move knows), Cooper most likely knew unpressurised up to 10K was no big deal, an easier to convince them of than of depressurising once they got there (as per previous discussion). Besides, if he wanted to bail without them knowing where he was doing it (which makes sense - harder to find), then sending through a depressurisation request just before jumping would be counterproductive well, I think the issue is could the door have been opened with cabin pressured at 10k or lower. If NO then he obviously took care of this BEFORE liftoff to avopid the issue in the air - and, this detracts from Ckret's theory that Cooper and them open the door because he intended to bail at SEA. I never thought much of Ckret's theory on other grounds but we need to nail this one way or the other if possible - because it also goes directly to Cooper's skill level IF pressure is the central reason - we are making nice progress in any event. makes me happy and Im to bed finally -

Its a goldmine. Why dont you forward it Sluggo for his website ?

well... the reason for my 'musings' is you havent explained HOW in a hydraulic system, the stairs can drop like a rock or swing shut like a leaf - The Ckret slam effect. When you explain this then I will stop musing.

Someone else is also musing: I found the following at Yahoo/Questions-Answers. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070408223808AAnwqQw Best Answer - Chosen by Asker There are 2 control handles for the airstairs on a 727, one under a panel on the lower fuselage right beside the stair forward hinge point, and one at the top of the stairs behind a panel on the left side which can only be accessed when the rear cabin door is open. Because the cabin door can only be opened when the aircraft is unpressurized, this usually would prevent its actuation in flight. However, after the D B Cooper hijacking a device was added referred to as an anti-hijack vane that would swing over when the aircraft was in flight and prevent the door opening. To close the door either an electric hydraulic pump has to be turned on in the cockpit, or a hand pump beside the lower control operated while either handle is held to the close position. The door will free fall open without hydraulic pressure, but the support arms may have to be pushed to an over center position. · 1 year ago Source(s): B727 AMM. Endorsement course for B727 Followup: They are controlled from the passenger cabin, and a light in the cockpit turns on indicating that the stairs are open. As said, after multiple hijackings, the most famous being D.B. Cooper on Northwest Airlines flight, a Cooper Vane was installed on most 727's to prevent the airstairs to be opened in flight. However, perhaps since airports were beginning to offer jetways connecting directly to the terminal, most airlines sealed up the airstairs. I would think that on pressurized flight, it would be impossible to open up the airstairs due to the pressure difference, because the normal doors can't be opened, but I'm just guessing on that. 1 year ago - From: http://yarchive.net/air/airliners/727_rear_doors.html "BTW, there is a tail skid on the B727, but I think it is only there to help if there is over rotation on takeoff. Also, the aft airstairs now have an airspeed switch that prevents the aft airstairs from being lowered in flight. Maintenance crews occassionally call this the "DB Cooper" switch. From: http://www.aero.com/publications/parachutes/9602/pc0296.htm "A Trans World Boeing 727 with 72 people aboard landed at San Antonio International Airport Tuesday night after the aircraft's rear stairs deployed in flight. TWA Flight 199 was flying from St. Louis to San Antonio when a cockpit warning light indicated that the stairs under the jet's tail engine had become unlocked, an airline spokesman said.... The pilot descended to 3,000 feet and depressurized the cabin so that the stairs, which are behind a bulkhead door in the rear of the aircraft, could be retracted. "A crew member reached around, grabbed the handle, and pulled, raising the stairs hydraulically," [the spokesman] said. A rope was tied around the handle to keep the stairs raised.... TWA policy requires that the rear stairs be lowered when an aircraft is on the ground as a safety precaution, and crews use the stairs to gain access. " .... Mechanics in San Antonio serviced the hydraulic system that operates the stairs. The plane, operated by TWA since 1969, flew its scheduled route Wednesday." Found this anecdote: "The man's name on the plane's manifest was Dan Cooper. There was also a male passenger already on board named Michael Cooper, traveling from Missoula, Montana to Seattle. (The press was later credited with identifying the middle-aged man as "D.B. Cooper" and that identifier has remained in most accounts since that time.) " Cooper asked the plane remain unpressurised before liftoff at SEA. Did he understand the relationship between unpressurised and getting the rear door open - was this the basis for his request? [EDIT] Im going to edit this. I see some crucial issues in this - (1) it possibly goes to skill level/experience on Cooper's part. (2) Did 305's rear stairs function normally - not drop like a rock. Sounds like they functioned normally. What was the hangup for Cooper getting the stairs out? Air pressure? (3) Ckret used Cooper wanting the aft door open and plane going unpressurised at liftoff as a sign Cooper wanted to bail early, at SEA. It may have had nothing to do with that, but with pressure issues once in flight? If that is the reason then there is nothing to indicate Cooper intended to bail early at SEA. Unpressurised was a specific request on Cooper's part. If you discount having the rear door open as indicating early bailout, then quite obviously it was wind and pressure issues Cooper was thinking about, because you cant bail until a door is open!

Im not convinced we know how these stairs worked on 305. Its obvious from your work there were revisions over time in other 727's, which isnt surprising. Im not convinced the hydraulic pistons on these stairs did any work at all other than stabilisation.

If these stairs will drop with no air pressure (dead fall weight in normal air prerssure), will they drop with pressure at 160-180 kts? If these stairs do not lower or retract by hydraulic pistons but by motorised cable, then it may have been air pressure which gave Cooper trouble getting the stairs out ... with no weight on them? Anyone would have had trouble getting them out that didnt understand the system, if the above is true. It's interesting there is no technical discussion of these stairs by the flight crew, in advising Tina to open them out ? All the crew asks is if Tina should be tied in or not...

No there's no manual pushing back up. (short people wouldn't be able to reach anyhow..it's around 7' to the highest skin there at the stair closure, right?) Didn't anyone look at the vid I posted? You can see the hydraulic lift. (edit) and the external control position, which matches what's described in that manual I posted. Here's the youtube link again (I provided snaps from this) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjXB1Y9kISg you push the button on the outside (or the inside) and the hydraulics lift up. (yes you could ask "why didn't they just lift them themselves, from the inside? Maybe they wanted maint to inspect them since they had dragged?) Yes it is weird that the hydraulics don't provide any (or not much) back pressure on the drop, but can lift on the raise. The hydraulic arm must extend on the drop, so it can compress on the lift, so there's got to be some friction effects, minimally. So somehow this extension must occur with little resistance. Maybe there's just some kind of fast bleed for the hydraulics that allow the drop. I don't really understand typical hydraulics enough. If you've operated a hydraulic car engine hoist crane, or a hydraulic car jack, you know you can twist the bleed screw and the hydraulic arm drops pretty quick if there's any load. So maybe it's just that simple. There's some kind of bleed on the drop. (edit) or it's bled immediately after it's locked. That sounds more likely? Guessing: If these stairs are free to drop as described then my guess is these are cable driven stairs, with weak hydraulic pistons on each side to keep symmetry in dropping and retracting. But it is cables (motor driven?) that do all the work, not hydraulics. Once the cable retracts the door locks. Probably an electric lock which shuts off the cable motor. Essentially weight lowers the stairs, cales draw them up, and hydraulic pistons on each side are in the system to maintain symmetry (side to side) when dropping or raising the stairs). The hydraulic pistons must be very weak if wind pressure can slam the stairs/door back up. ???

Quoteas we've discussed, there are a number of details a 727 hijacker should be aware of. Note: when 305 landed at Reno the rear stairs were dragging... CBS coverage noted this and remarked 'sparks from the rear stairs dragging....'

Quotehere's a report from the NASA event gathering system (online) It's interesting because it confirms the stairs can fall down. There was "wear" here, don't know how much that contributed, or if that was just part of the not-locked thing, and they would always fall down. (From everything we know, it seems like they would always fall down) We called our maintenance in roc. They came out, put the stairs back up .......... REPLY> so, if they can fall down so easily once 'unlocked', how do you get them backup so easily? Especially if this is a hydraulic system? It must be a weak hydraulic system? Sounds like the aint guys just push them back up (from the outside) , or pull them up (from the inside)? G.

QuoteWe've assumed this model of river drift, that says that 100 bundles deposited in the Columbia would disperse randomly. Reply! Who is this WE? You, yourself, and Jo Weber? I certainly have never assumed this! Georger

Here are some websites where the Cooper case is mentioned. Maybe you missed these before - ? http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19711124-0 http://yakfreak.aviation.at/vap/prolist.php?airport=&suche=N467US&anzahlbilder=10&submit=submit http://www.angelfire.com/il2/aphs/wheels/wheels.html http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/3108191/ http://www.super70s.com/super70s/news/1971/november/24-DB_Cooper_Part2.asp http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/NWA305-DBCooper.htm nice n647us photo at http://www.jetpiedmont.com/gallery/?CID=17&AC=721 http://www.weirdstory.org/dbcooper.html Asian perspective and log keeping track of DB Cooper case: http://www.perfspot.com/profile.asp?uid=36675291-90B2-49CF-A9 http://fromtheflightdeck.com/Reviews/727/DBCooper/ http://clublexus.com/forums/the-clubhouse/368041-the-d-b-cooper-story-a-mystery.html http://tripatlas.com/D._B._Cooper http://www.yazdjavan.com/farsi/index2.php?option=com_content& http://www.geocities.com/~aeromoe/fleets/nw.html