georger

QuoteThanks Jerry, for the explanation. "Ive lost riffles supplies a car equipment ECT" Note that implies that wherever you were, had a reasonable amount of human traffic. Unless you mean animals took them? You said you went N miles in a line from where you camped. (still not sure what the max N was) I'm assuming the other human traffic was typically from cars/trucks driven to some location, and then people walking in, at most a day. I guess I don't understand why these sites are called remote, if there's all this human traffic? Reply> In 1971 it was less populated, less traffic. By say 1980 things had begun to change. More people. More traffic. Today its a zoo at times. Just like in my State the wilderness is gone. Literally gone. More damned roads per capita than any other State and it hurts on every level. The Washington Cooper bailed into is not the Washington of today. (edit) I can understand how a dead body might be eaten and not found etc. But there's always this statement that it would be impossible for Cooper to walk out. I've never heard something that "proves" that. One the one hand I don't care, because I don't think he jumped in the woods. But it's like part of the mythology...it seems people want to say that for some reason. Much better to start with assuming Cooper could do anything anyone here could do. Reply> That might be a false assumption, a large false assumption. Skydivers are generally fit people, more fit than average, and we know nothing about Cooper's fitness - we do know he was nuts! The business about walking out assumes a night walk, primarily. We all know he might have landed in a less hilly wooded area. Thats changes the requirements. We just dont know.

Is the only thing that saves people from dying in the woods a GPS? No wonder the world is overpopulated. GPS was a worse invention that penicillin! From a survival point of view in that area, its knowing when to move and when not to. How to move between hills, generally down creek beds to stay out of trouble. Keeping dry and warm. Holding up if necessary and not extended yourself. Small steps. How to deal with animals. Knowing the area before you go in and having a plan. Letting someone know you are going in is important. You follow the rules and dont over-extend yourself even on a hunt on a ncie day when everything appears ok ???

I believe that if Cooper was from Canada or the upper Midwest he would have no trouble in regards to the weather. Georger can probably attest to that living in Iowa. Now, if he was a SoCal guy, and was not used to harsh tempatures it is a different story. He may have also had a lot of experience in rough terrian if he was Military. Plus, there is a whole lot of incentive to live with close to 200K on your person. Now, if he lost the money on the way down, he may have been much more apt to 'Give up the fight'. well if he had mountain experience then he had a chance, if he landed in one piece. I want to point here for the record that Mr. Thomas is not just experienced in Washington but a military survival expert - instructor. I grew up in a rural semi wilderness area. Grandpa owned two sections surrounded by a whole county with very few fences. You could ride all day without encountering a fence and it was very hilly. We raised cattle and horses and a few row crops. Grandpa and Grandma ran a 'dude ranch' for kids every summer. I have hiked, climbed, been on -20 expeditions, but there is NOTHING in the midwest that even compares in what I came from, with the kind of terrain Washington has and Jerry is talking about. Sure, as a young man I could have coped with it and even had fun in it. But the steep densely forested terrain Jerry has wears you out very quickly even if you are fit. At night it is pitch black and in rocky terrain that is an accident waiting to happen. Its very easy to turn your ankle, for example. You really do have to know what you';re doing in Jerry's terrain. Im sorry. but hiking and even wilderness travel in the midwest just is no qualification for Washington. You go to Washington learn that. Just as one of my sons went to Washington and then Alaska to learn his, to then become a climber and rescue team member at Denali... If you are from Washington-Oregon it helps immensely but it still is no guarantee. Thats my experience. Jerry?

well, if they were physically there, even if they didn't know where they were, then they were able to physically move thru the terrain. whatever. It sounds like you're confident of your theories. Good luck! He's pulling our chain or he's a fool.

I will call this weekend if you're around - will leave a message if need be and we can hook up.. Im thinking Snow needs to stop jabbering and jump from a jet into the Washougal and youc an go in and get his corpse, if the cougars and bears dont beat you to it. (just joking) You brought up the kids (young man, wife, kids) that went up the logging road to take short cut and got snowed in; the guy tried to walk out and died ...... they had burned the tires off the car to try and stay warm ....... I followed that. People just arent aware of what they are getting into and then its too late.

and you agree to age progression first? (might leave some lasting effects).

not to mention bears, etc... I remember very clearly the reaction around me at the time, with family at Vancouver. The first reaction was something of humor that anyone would try something like that and maybe get away, then a sober reaction 'if he landed in the back country in the weather at the time, he's a dead man'. Then we all waited to hear if he walked out and had been caught ...... and then an endless nothing set in. In the meantime every Tom, Dick, and Harry was out all over Washington and into Oregon looking for Cooper. You could hardly turn around in the woods without running into somebody ... ***Jerry can comment about that.

I know my thought on this is "we can't know" But it's worth double checking. Go back and check and you'll see what I mean. Review when Rat said he moved the flaps back to 15. Review the ground speed implied by the 1 minute legs on the flight path. Think about the probable winds at 10,000 ft, the indicated air speed and predicted and radar-measured ground speeds. Sluggo has probably worked all this out, as it ties it to info in the transcript about fuel burn. At the very least, it highlights the idea that saying the test drop "duplicated" the exact conditions of cooper's jump, is kind of an unproven theory. We don't know when Cooper jumped. The plane configuration changed around the probable time. And we don't have the exact details of the test drop. Tosaw did publish details of where it was done and the pilot. It was not done on V-23. So questions about whether aloft winds were the same, are interesting. (head winds, tail winds etc) Might not matter, but since this whole pressure bump thing is new knowledge, like splitting the atom, we shouldn't assume we know what affects what, right? Otherwise why do a test? (edit) I had thought that Rat moved the flaps back to 15 after he "felt" that Cooper had jumped. I always wondered where this point was. It would seem to be extra info about how Rat was processing events in the cabin..i.e. doing physical things based on how he felt about Cooper's presence and stair behaviors. I havent gone back to check but will post anyway. I totally agree with everyrthing above. Totally, so far as I know or understand it. The tests were flawed. Not the same conditions. Thats a given. I thought it was a bit abrupt of Larry to rely so heavily on these tests. Jerry speaks of the high winds - Shelly too. Others also. I think the Bohan issue (Contenental pilot) is still alive and perhaps very important. Tom and I have tried to hash this out and find data. Sluggo too. Its a crucial issue that goes directly to the validity of any socalled "tests" and quite frankly I didnt think Larry's wind stats were accurate if Bohan is correct. And it could be a reason for Coop landing far east off V23 vs closer to V23 ... or if he landed nearer the Columbia in that valley with cross winds like Bohan claimed then almost anything is possible - he could jump and switch back on himself., potentially? ** I think Jerry believes they were below 10k feet, maybe ? The other thing I can report with certainty is H does not believe Rat ever said anything about 'seeing the lights of Portland-VCR coming up'. His estimate of their position was based on time and perhaps a communication from PDX, not seeing lights from 10k feet through a thick cloud cover. ....... that makes some sense.

Fill them in on the animal life in the area - ? I have Fossett in mind.

Of course it was a nice summer day over the cornfields of Rantoul Illinois when I jumped. I know Cooper faced a much more hostile environment. Do you think he went in without an open canopy or died trying to hike (or swim?) out. 377 Post some photos! ? There is a website with Rantoul photos from several seasons - you in one of those?

Use the Quote thing instead of Reply. The idea is to allow multiple overlapping exchanges, by reposting the message you're responding to. The Quote thing automatically encloses the message in the reply and /reply thingees. (edit) then you can type your response at the bottom. If you click on Get Markup Help while you're editing a post, you can see all sorts of wonderful things you can bracket text with. like b and /b (I'm not showing the required brackets) to get bold text like this or if you want to say sluggo is a jerk You'll notice some posters have favorite styles. Jo's posts used to be insane with markup stuff. but she's toned down a bit. Break your posts into paragraphs for easier reading. To avoid chopping the sentences up, only hit Enter on your keyboard when you want a new paragraph. Hit Enter twice if you want a blank line between paragraphs. (edit) You can go back and use Edit on a post to edit posts that you made. Since this can be confusing to a future reader, or someone who already read the post, a convention we sort of have here is to highlight meaningful post edits. I use (edit) Others do other things. Rather than using the standard markups to delineate replys, Georger likes typing "reply>" or something like that at the start of his posts. It's good to snip out long posts, rather than repost the entire thing you're responding to. Georger always reposts the entire message he responds to, even if he's just adding two words. No one complains, but it would be better to snip the original post. Just include enough to provide context for your response. Georger usually snips what he thinks should be snipped otherwise posts full context on ourpose. Me Georger. You Snow. Me know what Georger do - at least most of the time. There was this time however when Sally and I were on a hill .... thats another story. Bear walked up at 3:00am. All we had on was our shorts and the bear was wearing a hat ........... if not for the rattlesnakes I know we would have been eaten... Jesus I am becoming like Jo!

You're doing fine. If you need a break just take it. We have your back. You should see the screwups I make! Its a family of sorts here, and the Moderator (a real grizzly) has all our backs - Lets talk this weekend... G.

Now dont blow a fuse but V23 may not have had full radar coverage from McChord! The FP map may not have been assembled from radar data - only. I have been told (not from Jerry) that this is H's opinion, and he should know. (Came as startling to me if true.) Dont me to interupt ...

I take everything you say very seriously, for the mostpart. You are one of the smarest, if not thee smartest in terms of questioning an teasing out details. Details are vital. I think I am speaking for just about everyone here. This all matters, to me at least, and to others. I think the flaps were at 30* when he bailed but I will have to go back and check. Likewise these other details. Its important to know for an intelligent discussion. Sluggo spent a lot of time on this, you also. You brought up fuel consumption a few posts back. I thought we decided they trimmed the flaps (out of 30 dgrees) after Cooper bailed, then Sluggo calculated threy landed at Reno with fuel to spare .. Let me go back and check ...

if the way he tied it to himself didnt do actual damage to his body... and cut him in half?

Just to be controversial/difficult - what is to say that Cooper didn't throw "some" money out the door because there was to much to carry? In other words the Tina bar money may not have left the plane with Cooper. Thats an option except many people believe the whole hijacking was about money. Tina's report about Cooper's giddy reaction when seeing the money, a strong sense the money was important to him and a motivator .... maybe he changed his mind faced with the actual jump and threw some out to lighten the load as the reality of his circumstances began to soak in ....? He did offer money to Tina (maybe twice), maybe to Schafner also ??? But Snow will say I have no evidence for this. I dont. Its pure speculation.

Plus: Georger has fed us a cock-and-bull story of unknown origin that might be true, that seems to confirm the claims of the little girl Denise in terms of how the money was really found. If you know Himmelsbach, maybe he talked about what really happened in the couple of days around the money find, and the interactions with all the members of the Ingram family. Reply> I might also add you were grateful for it at the time, before second guessing yourself right off the planet. It taught me: (1) Snowmman and Jo and one and the same. (2) You cant do Snowmman any favours! (3) Snowmman's prolific SEARCHING SKILLS ARE ACTUALLY LIMITED! Snowmman is a joke. I know people who could SEARCH circles around you on a routine basis and they work for minimum wage! (4) Dont trust Snowmman. That about covers it.

Plus: Georger has fed us a cock-and-bull story of unknown origin that might be true, that seems to confirm the claims of the little girl Denise in terms of how the money was really found. If you know Himmelsbach, maybe he talked about what really happened in the couple of days around the money find, and the interactions with all the members of the Ingram family. Reply> Fed us? You are "feeding" right now. "Cock and bull"? I posted it as "what if" and I explained the basis for my post. You may chose not to believe it, or investigate it, but that is your choice based on your emotional response which I have no control over. The subject will come up again... just as while calling it "cock and bull" you went forward and made your own contributions to the "cock and bull"? In retrospect it might have been better had I said nothing. Half of the reason I posted that material was because the forum was sagging and seemed to me in need of perking up. I am sorry your reaction was so strongly negative. Sometimes Snowmman's personal interests are not enough to keep a forum going, on only Snowmman posts. There isn't a single model to success Snowmman.

How many people were in Ford's theatre at the moment Lincoln was shot? Nobody knows. Nobody made an instantaneous count or had the ability to do so - In the Cooper case, everyone forgot to include you as an observer. That was a major screwup. Maybe you werent born yet. Then your mother screwed up! You give polemic. You get polemic. You know the variables. We have an "outline" (as Labrys said. Labrys is correct in a profound sense) We have "oscillations" and supposedly a "bump" (cabin pressure fluctuation) as two distinct events. We assume the bump relates to the jump point. In a general sense Rat thought so and spoke accordingly. (The whole cabin crew thought so, which YOU will debate as having no evidence to support). I cannot speak to the level of certainty" in Rat's mind about this issue. I dont have the historical record or transcripts of the testimony to parse and examine, and you dont either. It is easy for you to raise objections to an issue fuzzy in the first place. We both know oscillations are mentioned in the transcript - "bump" is not. We have tried to resolve if the two are the same or seperate. A "bump" was reproduced in the tests but oscillations were not reproduced, if I recall correctly. Obviously something was different or there was no distinction to begin with. If something was different and oscillations and pressure fluctuate are two distinct events then perhaps it was something Cooper did that the test failed to duplicate in the same way. There is a person who has a theory about that. That person is not here. The person Im thinking of believes the oscillations and pressure bump were different symptoms in time of a single event. You might want to explore that line of thought, if you understand it?

No problem. You are a breath of fresh air.

I'll trust you and your secret source on anything you want. But I have no idea what we're talking about. You posted a single sentence: "Cabin presure fluctuation" What was that in reference to? We were talking about the pressure bump, in context. Are you talking about the oscillations in the transcript or the bump or ?? I may be dense, but the phrase above doesn't add anything, even if it is from a secret source? I'll believe anything. Just need some more. Jerry is not familiar with all of the fine nuances and hair splitting we have done here, so he probably isnt going to know exactly what you are talking about. Not that Jerry needs protecting. Trust me he doesnt!

You're pretty funny georger. But not funny enough to get a free drink from Lenny at my bar. And no tab for you either! What's really funny is that you lampoon Jo. But you are Jo. Just another version. Read what I said again. Rat never said where Cooper "bailed" as you say. Now he might have and Ckret may not have told us something. There are writer accounts of Rat saying "mark that on your radar" when Cooper jumped or something like that. But apparently that's all rumor. But all we have from Ckret is Rat saying stuff about the pressure bump, right? The crew reported the oscillations which were then interpreted to be the jump time. They didn't report the bump but talked about it post interview. NOW we have Ckret willing/confident about saying the bump is the jump. I would note at this time that Ckret never got us copies of the film from the test drop. Oh well. But no one knows what's the jump. It's just different speculation, that could be right or wrong. For 37 years, the oscillation was the jump. For 1 year, the bump is the jump. You want to say Rat said "Cooper jumped". Rat didn't. All I'm pointing out, is that you connected the pressure bump and the jump, by saying Rat said Cooper bailed. I pointed out Rat didn't say that. Seems pretty clear to me. Reply> I didnt connect the pressure event with the jump. Rat made that connection, eg. in his statement below. I didnt write his statement. "" The stairs immediately reacted by becomming abrubtly closed and we could feel a huge pressure bump in our ears. So I quickly got onto the air traffic control center and said, 'I think our friend just took leave of us.'" (PLF's quote of Wm Rataczak) I think you are making far more out of this than there is, or ever was. You demand hard facts when there are no hard facts. You question everything so there can be no facts. And then you offer your own interpretations as probable fact! (and you make ridiculous personal attacks to fill in the void). Maybe you're drunk? Maybe you are bipolar? Maybe both. And the funniest thing of all is you say you really don't care, in any event. We had a mule like that once. He took on a cougar one day probably thinking it was just another mule. Hung by his own petard. But you are WAY beyond that, so some mental issue is indicated.

QuoteGeorger, you say things so imprecisely. "Rat said Cooper bailed somewhere between 5-10 minutes after their last contact with him at 8:05, and he could see the nothern suburbs of Portland coming up, and they had not crossed the Columbia yet" Rat did not say that. He said stuff like that with respect to when they felt a pressure bump. Reply> Next time place quotes around the "issues" you are debating or want discussed. That is common practice "in science". So it's ie "pressure bump", the point of your objection. Yes. Rat was referring to the "pressure bump". But you also know as well as I do he later referred to the "pressure bump" in these terms quoted below - " The stairs immediately reacted by becomming abrubtly closed and we could feel a huge pressure bump in our ears. So I quickly got onto the air traffic control center and said, 'I think our friend just took leave of us.'" (PLF's quote of Wm Rataczak) Ckret coevered the matter is his quote below: "Ckret PM Friend JumpsLicenseIn sport : : : Jan 26, 2008, 1:01 PM Post #1432 of 1694 (804 views) Registered: Sep 7, 2007Posts: 263 Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Forum Behavior - NEW [In reply to] "I am with you on the oscillation, when i read through the case file it seems as if the "pressure bump" and oscillation were one in the same. For me the finding of the money changes all of that.If there is no logical, verifiable piece of evidence or information that can point to the money ending up where it did by human hands, then it had to get there on its own from the environment. Since I can't find anything that says it was human, then it had to be environment. Because there is no way the money could have ended up where it did from the original search area, then the original dropzone was calculated wrong. Therefore, it stands to reason that the crew felt oscillations at 8:12 and the pressure bump a few minutes later. The second officer stated the last contact they had with Cooper was 8:05 and it was 5 to 10 minutes after that they felt the pressure change. I also don't think a trained air crew would mix up terms, an oscillation would be just that and a pressure change would be called a pressure change or bump. I think where things went wrong was during the testing. For some reason we were not to re-create oscillations only the pressure bump. At this point the terms must have been combined and believed to be one and the same. As to my post on this board, PM's and phone conversations. I have publicly told all of you that I am FBI agent Larry Carr even though I use the pseudonym "ckret." Every post, every PM and every phone conversation I must represent as if I am speaking to the public, keenly aware of who and what I represent. Therefore, I can assure you all that I would never write or say anything that would reflect negatively on me or the FBI. You may not agree with me, but I would never treat anyone with disrespect in any form of communication. Now lets get back to solving one the greatest "who-done-it's" in American history. "

Or some secret dam hydrologist of unknown name. We mentioned him before: Jeffrey B. Bradley, Hydraulic Engineer, US Army Corps of Engineers, Portland District.

Rat said Cooper bailed somewhere between 5-10 minutes after their last contact woith him at 8:05, and he could see the nothern suburbs of Portland coming up, and they had not crossed the Columbia yet". There has been disagreement about what Rat's vision was from his seat, and what Cooper could have seen from his seat or standing on the stairs. The conditions were 3/4 moon, perhaps cloud deck at 5000ft, windy-rainy, and 305 was flying somewhere along or variably east of V23 as per the FBI flight map ... Photo No.1 shows the view from Rataczak's seat. His forwards vision is restricted, as Sluggo pointed out earlier. His side vision through his side window is favorable, to his right side extending to approx 70 degrees to his front. His downward vision on his right side extending forward is quite good, from 10,000 feet. Photos no.2 & 3 further detail vision from the 727 cockpit. Rataczack's statement implies Cooper bailed between 8:10 and 8:15. If you look at the FBI flight path map, photo 3A, you can see that up to 20:15 Rataczack has a good right window view to the ground of Portland-Vancouver coming up, because 305 has not made its turn yet beginning at 20:15. After 20:15 Rat's view ahead is more limited but not fully restricted. So, Rataczack's statement is consistent with the flight path map in terms of the angle of the plane and Rat's ability view PDX-VCR approaching out his right side window. In the back, Cooper would have had a more restricted forward view due to his smaller window but his view toward Portland until 20:15 is very much like that Rataczack has, because of the angle of the plane. Cooper would have seen the lights of PDX-VCR coming up, if the clouds permitted this. Photos 4-6 show the back stairs extended. Once again given the angle of the plane to 20:15, if Cooper is standing on the stairs during this period (20-10-20:15) all Cooper has todo is look to his left and cloud cover permitting he can see the lights of Vancouver-Portland in the distance coming up. Cooper bails during this period, according to Rat. If 305 is east off V23 it is basically the same scenario with respect to Rataczack's rightside view toward PDX-VCR, and the same also for Cooper if he knew where he was, or cared. There is the issue of cloud cover. One would think even with cloud cover, VCR and PDX would have appeared as 'light glow' through the clouds, against a backdrop of black night, with a 3/4 moon somewhere above. I dont see that there is any restriction to Rataczack's right side vision as it conflicts with his statement. Rather I see the facts of 727 rightside vision from the copilot's seat as supporting Rat's statement. The only issues are where and when. But, the angle of the plane between BTG and the 20:15 are favorable for Rataczack seeing VCR-PDS off his right side. Likewise for Cooper seeing these lights if he looked.