georger

point taken. colour of water alone agrees with this depth difference. It is hard for me to believe anything washing up on C or T would not be noticed quickly - and then there is the burial scenario which takes more time.

QuoteI give up - this is what Snowmman and Georger were sent here to do - to bury the truth in so much technology that no one would ever see the truth. Those pictures of the Fazion home are not as they appeared in 2001. There were buildings to the East of the parking lot - but back further from the river - there were trucks there. Jo you MUST keep your tinfoil hat on!

I cannot get Google up tonight - must be having problems. You last link to Catapillar provides a superb all-around view. And a new thought struck. If in a flood (like a tidal surge) there was significant outward pressure to the sides of the main channel, then an object entering the right side flow after the curve might actually 'bankshot' up against and ride along the outside shoreline of Catapillar island ... and be piped by this action right onto Tina Bar. ? I have focused on the inside channel at Catapilalr Isle before - now Im focusing on the outside edge as a pressure route to Tina Bar ?

if the money (in a bag?) rolled up on a beach something had to restrain it from washing back in .... I am still completely unclear where on the beachfront the money was. Ckret's penciled circles are close to the water's edge, just as Denise's mother said ???

In the Google Earth photo of my house, you can see my son outside. It's from summer 2007..very recent. And it's correct because you can see things I changed in 2006. We were saying we should leave a sign on the grass for the google satellites. People are actually doing that, in different places around the world. or a LOST sign on the roof, like one of my sons had for a while! If Jo doesnt come with an ID I will email the Fazio photo for id.

Is Oxygen more important? This patent is talking about some specific rubbers, but it argues that Oxygen is a primary requirement. (and by removing it, aids preservation) Short answer YES. Less O2 longer storage life. More O2 and especially O+ (as in UV situation) shorter lifetime to the molecular bonds and the latex begins forming crystals. Literally dries out, as it were, a reverts to a crystalline state. You posted the paper preservation article long ago but it explained the phenominon in water burial. Cold low oxy water best. Would preserve everything longer especially if blocks of money are encased in sediment keeping oxygen away. If we could put Cooper's corpse in the slough even at the south end of Catapillar Island, I could buy this whole scenario of Tina Bar, and the discovery of remnants 10 years later right at Tina Bar. You would expect exactly that ... or nothing, ie. everything decayed and washed out into the Columbia and gone. But! Tosaw etal explored and dragged this whole area immediately after Feb 1980 and found NOTHING. My impression is Tosaw was greatly surprised at this negative result... because he was connecting Tina Bar with Catapillar Island also. Is it possible the currents are so stiff at Catapillar Island that by 1980 only a remnant of cash was left, and upstream at Tina Bar? That may be what's going on. The river bed photos you posted at Catapillar Island are remarkably clean of debris, to me. Your friend at Catapillar Island would definately have an opinion about all of this -

Here's a question for you: There are a number of large metal roof buildings, and one normally shingled (composition?) building. Do you agree that the Fazio's "home" was not metal roofed? Also: I can estimate the sq footage of that home. If your memory is so great: give me the dimensions of the Fazio home (estimate). I can verify. If Jo doesnt know I can show that photo to several people and get the answer quickly - Jo isnt isnt the only dog thats ever been to the Fazios, not by a longshot! I know poeple who were in business with them.

QuoteI was surprised by georger's mention of clay in rubber bands then. But he's right about fillers. did some searching. http://www.cec.com.my/faq.htm Q1: What is rubber band made of? Main material is "rubber", usually natural rubber, but some types of synthetic rubber are also used to obtain certain specific quality depending on the application. Besides, fillers such as calcium carbonate, carbon black, clay and additives like sulfur, stearic acid, zinc oxide, wax, oil, accelerators are mixed into rubber as ingredients. Reply> Think about a molecule of 'rubber band' and bonding of similar molecules which achieves the properties of cohesion, strectch, etc . Latex, clay (carbon), sulfur. The weak link that ages is at the bonds (sulfur-clay/carbon). The carbon and sulfur are broken down and absorbed, atomically. This leaves a residue of gooey sticky stuff, the latex. (Just as the breakdown of rubber bands used in this case is described, ie. 'gooey stuff on the paper hard to remove'). But, the rubber bands as a working molecular entity are long gone. It takes 1-3 years, maybe 5 if protected, and less than 1 year if exposed to UV which converts (breaks down) the carbon and sulfur atomically . . . This is basic textbook chemistry. So, we have timelines: (a) timeline of bands breaking down - (b) timeline on paper decomposition & artifacts of. (c) timeline of dredging operation in '74. (d) timeline of conveyance and distribution to a specific site, Tina Bar .. all from a specific desposit point (where he or money landed). (e) timeline on discovery after which nothing will ever be found. (f) timeline on storage consistet with the facts of the money's condition whcih can still have money present at Tina Bar away from the original flight path . . .

The B-man says we're on our own with this Cooper thing though. Reply> I assume you're talking about Ckret. It may not matter that he isnt here. Frankly, he may not know much more at this point than we do, and we know for a fact unless he has something really special that nobody else has, then he has a lot of false information. They wasted a lot on the bogus flight path and drop zone. They also wasted time and energy, in my opinion, on the Washougal Theory. Happy's synopsis is almost dead-on, imho. But perhaps even this can be narrowed, as follows. Let me begin with a quote from Gulick's book where he describes what Ingram found, quote: "After gathering a load of driftwood for a fire, the boy put it down, then dropped to his knees and started smoothing out a spot in the sand on which he could pike the wood. . . . Digging it up (the money), he discovered three packets of soggy twenty dollar bills, two of them held together with rubber bands that broke as soon as he handled them, while the third, which was not bound by a rubber band, was thinner". I do not accept the scenario of Brian laying down firewood etc. I am sure Denise was close by. I do however accept the description of the two and 1/2? bundles! So we have in essence, two intact bundles and once partial broken bundle, which is consistent with a water deposition scenario as opposed to a plant or intentional burial. The money washed to Tina Bar, but from where. Approximately 290 $20 bills, or 2 + 1/nth bundles ? And why no more and no less than this amount? If you begin in the narrow corridor of possible drop zones given the flight path currently understood, and work your way up to Tina Bar, one thing stands out - the vastness of the water shed area involved. Just the Columbia itself between these two points comprises a very large (dynamic flow) area. If you lost 3 bundles of money back in the drop area, the probabilty of those self-same bundles winding up at Tina Bar is ZERO, practically speaking. The area is so great, the options so many, the Tina Bar location probability from an origin in the drop zone is zero. (actually 1:billions) This tells us it would require a much greater distribution of money in the drop zone area, for any money to work its way through various options to Tina Bar. We have 10,000 $20 bills and n-number of bundles to work with. This also tells us the closer we can move the money to Tina Bar before any distribution occurs, the higher the probability of money being at Tina Bar. The closer in time we can begin the distribution prior to discovery, the greater the probability some money will survive to be found... If we add in Gulick's account, then some money arrived intact still in bundles, but upon discovery at least one bundle was broken with bills and bands missing. (Possible deterioration during the money's time at Tina Bar itself?). It is hard to conceive of a partial bundle washing very far without coming apart unless cemented in some fashion, but we must assume the partial bundle arrived along with the intact banded bundles as found, or the one partial bundle became partial after arriving at Tina Bar. Rubber bands of this era had a high clay content and became brittle when exposed to nature within three years, some say. By 1980 the bands fell apart when the bundles were moved at all. Movement by water and rolling surely would have yielded the same result. Ckret and hydrologist Bradley say the money could not have been at Tina Bar prior to 1974 due to the dredging in 1974. The timeline of rubber band deterioration suggests the money could have been at Tina Bar any LATER than 1974, and have bands still intact by 1980! How do we resolve this conflict? The bands seem to require one timeline; the dredging another timeline - and the two conflict? Without some intervening factor, the timeline on the rubber bands seems to require the money arriving somewhere near Tina Bar between 1971-74, so that any future placement at Tina Bar requires little movement, thus keeping at some of the rubber bands still around their bundles in 1980. Because, so far as the clay impregnated rubber bands are concerned, any movement after three years in nature is destructive, and the further one goes out beyond three years the more destructive movement gets to these bands (unless all of the bundles were part of a large cemented block and the money finally found at Tina Bar a surviving remnant). To Ingram, quoting Gulick, the bundles were "something lumpy and damp, that felt like LIMP PAPER WITH RUBBER BANDS STILL IN PLACE" until he handled and pulled the bundles free. Survivors of a nine year history in the natural elements of Washington and the Columbia. Far away from the drop zone. But very close to a popular fishing, tourist, and boating spot (Catapillar Island and Tina Bar). Did Cooper know somebody at Catapillar Island or is this indeed an event arranged by Nature? Obviously

Me neither. Just illustrating that water was the transport mechanism for some of the money. Earlier, people kept opposing that theory. Just empirical thought, if you live near a river, you see it all the time. Assessing our facts. - The money find is our only rigid fact. - Exit point still has a range of conjecture. The money was found in, or near the river, depending on what flood stage we are speaking about. To be transported by water, it had to be: - in the watershed or the river. - it didn't float upstream, against the current. (Note - DBC could have landed downstream if he lost the money on exit and the money was blown to its resting point, while the wind carried him further.) Logically, the money wasn't 10 miles from the river, in a field. Let's say, 100 yds on either side of the river or a tributary - essentially, the flood plane. Outline that box. Figure the max wind drift of the canopy: From the probable exit point, figure the drift of a round with the max wind estimate. Draw the suspected drift cone and get a trapezoid effect. Figure the max wind drift of the cash bag, as if lost on exit: From the probable exit point, estimate the drift of a bag with the max wind estimate. (Cutaway free bags don't go that far and the cash bag was not aerodynamic) Draw the suspected drift cone. We don't know where he landed, but at least we have a better idea where he didn't. I think your summary is workable.

Snow, you have done an amazing piece of work here. Im digesting it all. Yes, wood could be tracked generally speaking but we are dealing with a very large/powerful river here (in an even larger dynamic water shed) easily capable of carrying tress of the kind pictured especially during flood as mentioned. Have you sver asked Bullard straight out how he thinks the money got to Tina Bar? Great work!

What is the location of your debris photo? Tina Bar? I also edited my orig post - shorter etc..

If the meander effect is real then you would expect shoreline buildup or a fairly static situation at Tina Bar and you just dont see that. In addition, the 1974 dredging photos show deposits of silt in large bulges at T Bar. These wash away rather quickly, which suggests more current than a slow-side meander effect at this location ? Yes. The area is high traffic, just as Jo has always said. I have talked to people who knew the Fazio's who also confirm this - I know a animal husbandry professor who has been at the Fazio operation a number of times, who says it has always been a high traffic area... Go back to the dredge deposits seen in 74. Notice how quickly they are swept away almost the the original shore line, and after that what looks to me like a fairly static situation. If there is slow current via a meander how did the dredge deposits get swept away so quickly?

Will answer both posts here: I agree. Change of the inside shoreline (erosion or deposition) is a function of the pressure being exerted inside the meander and that is what Im not sure about, when you examine shoreline photos 1970-2005. It doesnt seem to me the inside shoreline in your meander model has increased very much in size, over time? The strength of pressure to the inside on the meander would be proportional to the volume and rate of flow through the curve - as expressed over the volume/area of space at this point. I just dont see a lot of outside or inside shoreline change to indicate a strong vector to the inside of the curve, toward Tina Bar? At the same time I keep hearing all these reports of lots of debris at Tina Bar! If that is the case then there may be a stronger higher volume inside flow than I think. The only assumed facts I have are from hydrologist Jeffrey Bradley's report. Ckret always contended if the money broke free and went down the main channel then this happened shortly before the discovery in Feb of 1980. 1979 was a very dry year, no floods then. Almost the same for 78. I have the facts to prove that. Then there was a flood Dec 2 of 1977. Ckret based his theory on the Bradeley's report, who cites the Dec 2, 1977 flood (Washougal and Columbia basin) as the likely time the money entered the Columbia. Bradley estimated a 3 feet/sec flow rate for the Columbia during the Dec 2nd flood. He estimates the distance the money traveled (from a Washougal entry point) as approx 30 miles of uninterupted travel time of 14.7 hrs to Tina Bar. Bradley doesnt say one thing in his report to clarify flow patterms or any other hydrological factor which would bring the money to Tina Bar out of the main channel. If we had some concrete idea how and from where, debris gets brought to Tina Bar and the rate of deposit, not just in flood but also during ordinary flow situations; then I think we would have some basis for estimating the meander effect you think applies post-curve in this area. I will say this: if your theory is correct and the money got to T-Bar via the Columbia main channel, then the next question is "from where" and "when". If Meander is the "means" of conveyance to T-Bar then we are almost obliged to attach: via the main channel. If the Main Channel is the route, then from where and when? The money almost had to be hung up somewhere between 71 and 77, at least ? G.

that photo with my white line in the river, is the most recent imagery in Google Earth. It's dated July 2005. Note I'm doing a little compression to fit in the 300KB limit here, but I don't think it's noticeable from the original. It's pretty good. You can see people camping on the shore of Caterpillar Island, with tents and boats. I've been looking at shore debris. Further North on the Vancouver side, it seems like wherever there's sand, there's an even distribution of logs/brush from the river, on the sand. (I've posted on that before) I thought the Ckret photos were labelled "CENPP" which I thought was an acronym for The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Portland District. I thought those photos were aerial, not satellite? Don't know if satellite would have been that good in '70s? and if available to Corps of Engineers? (edit) On the logs, you can ask "where did that log come from, and why did it beach there?" (edit) While the latest TBar imagery is from 2005, I notice that elsewhere in the US there is imagery as recent as July 2007. Don't know what the most recent area/data is. yes, Ckret's photos were aerial. Attached are a few of them trimmed

Good photos. The last one stands out to me, showing Catapillar island and how T_Bar projects out into the Columbia. What year is this photo? These photos compare favorably with the hi-res images Ckret posted before . . . Keep track, there is a railroad line directly behind the Fazio property. It comes down directly from the Orchards area... skirts north of Vancouver Lake then bends over ad behind the Fazio property. Back later tonight -

The Duane sailor picture shows (to my eye) very prominent protruding ear structure. Kids with ears like that were teased and called DUMBO, the Disney cartoon elephant who flew by flapping his ears. I don't see such ears in the Cooper FBI sketches. Do ears like this on a a 16 year old youth tuck in more flush with the head as he ages? Georger? 377 well,,,,,,,,,,,,, what have I been saying.

Interesting. There were generally 2 Jewish "migrations" to SA as well - the first was around the diamond and then gold rush in the late 1800s and very early 1900s, the second was in the lead up to and around WW2 for horribly obvious reasons. While Ernest Oppenheimer technically forms part of the first, as Georger has noted his lineage is different from the average - most of the rest came directly from the shtetls (and most of them from Lithuania by the way), irrespective of whether they joined the first or second migration. There is a lot of fascinating history, and all well depicted in the SA Jewish Museum in Cape Town if any of you do ever make it out here, but if anyone is interested in exploring further probably better to take it to PM than use up forum space on it. btw we watched Fiddler on the Roof last weekend...!! and now this discussion. Orange, Ive never been to SA. Almost wound up in Kenya for a time, but then Kenyatta and all that transpired so I thought it better to stay away. I was working as a researcher for a UNESCO committee member at the time, in grad school. (The UNESCO official was the Dean of our Graduate College). We also have something here in the States called Public Television. Several years ago there was a documentary on the deBeers Co. Of course the Oppenheimers were mentioned and this caught my attention. I wondered then if there was some link to 'Oppenheimer', but it didnt come up in the program. However, the history of the deBeers Co. is rich, how control moved from one investment group to another etc. to have the Oppenheimers finally in control. I am sure a CD of that Public TV documentary is still available, should you ever want to look it up. Thanks. G.

Quotegeorger said: "The reason I answered this is because I had Oppy as a professor at the U of C in the summer of 1961. " Interesting info georger, thanks. See I knew Oppenheimer was on-topic for the thread, as well as nukes and peanut allergies. I'm more on-topic than Jo, in terms of thread participants' interests/backgrounds. Reply> Orange raised an interesting question about the Oppenheimer lineage. It would be interesting to know if the families merge somewhere ~1830 or before in Germany. My family has some similar origins and when Oppy found that out he asked me what I knew! I was almost stumped (a rank kid at the time). A lot of middle European Jewish families found their way to America via two routes: an earlier migration to England and then to America, and a later migration direct from Germany to America - mine the first route, Oppy's (according to him) the later route. Most of us at one time or another living in rural cirumstances (schtetels) in Germany, Poland, or wherever. Maybe Orange can turn something up, but this is definately the kind of thing that would have captivated Oppenheimer no end ... and maybe Oppy would have been able to answer Orange's question, directly - Maybe I will poke around when I get some time and see what I can find ...

I dont know if there's a relation. If there is it would have to go back to the Hanau district (east of Frankfurt) in Germany (1800s) where Robert's mother and father both came from. Robt's father;s full name was Benjamin Pinhas (or Pinhaus) Oppenheimer, born May 12, 1871 at Hanau. I do know this. Robt's father had no schooling and came from a family of poor schtetel farmers, but he had a real talent for business and kept ledgers in his head. Robert's father later taught himself how to write and do arithmetic. The family was Jewish but not orthodox. Robt's father made enough money selling grain one year to bring the family to New York City. Robt was born in NYC. There were other members of the Oppenheimer family who immigrated around the same time, from the same district - they all gathered in New York City. Robert's mother was an artist of some kind (painting and music). My thought is if the two families are related its on a deep level before the time of Robert's father ... Harry Oppenheimer's father was Sir Ernest Oppenheimer (22 May 1880 – 25 November 1957) was a diamond and gold mining entrepreneur financier and philanthropist, who controlled De Beers and founded the Anglo American Corporation of South Africa. Ernest was born in Friedberg, Germany, the son of Edward Oppenheimer, a cigar merchant. Oppenheimer began his working life at 17, when he entered Dunkelsbuhler & Company, a diamond brokerage in London. His efforts impressed his employer and in 1902, at the age of 22, he was sent to South Africa to represent the company as a buyer in Kimberley. He died in Johannesburg in 1957. He was born Jewish but as an adult converted to Christianity and was buried at St George's Church, Parktown. He was succeeded in the business by his son Harry Oppenheimer. Oppenheimer's brother, Sir Bernard Oppenheimer, was also heavily involved in the diamond industry. (all of this from wikipedia) The reason I answered this is because I had Oppy as a professor at the U of C in the summer of 1961. There seems to be a large difference in wealth and social status betwene the two families by 1880-85 if the two families are linked.

do you have Google Earth installed, with a decent speed web connection? If so, I'll post the kml. The resolution is VASTLY improved with that. (if you do the flyby a couple times, then it's smooth since all the data gets cached on your machine, assuming, your PC ain't too old. I suppose I could upload a hi-res vid somewhere. But maybe I just need to change the point-of-view to have less image. (so better resolution). I do but on another computer at work - not at home. I thought your perspective was pretty good but it wouldnt hurt to have a closer in version? If you can upload it someplace I will grab it ... you need to work something out with Sluggo so we can use his site ?? Oh Sluggo?? Where art thou? G.

It says US Navy. Not sure of the year of the cap - attached -

Its interesting ... will give it more looks before commenting...

Back in the day some Cal Club jumpers were over a cloud later when they exited but were somehow sure of their position. The landed deep inside the Lawrence Livermore nuke weapons lab. The guards FREAKED OUT!! Our boys were lucky to be alive. Wasn't there some strong localized seismic event off South Africa a long time ago that was correlated with some other nuke blast indicator and world opinion/suspicion pointed to Israel? Any of you have the secret decoder ring for Jo's last post? 377 I charted it - attached -

According to the Bill Gulick account referenced above Brian Ingram was given "a $500 reward by Northwest Airlines for finding (the money) which was sweetened by the Oregon Journal by an additional $250". This article rates the 'dredging theory' as the best explanation for how the money got to Tina Bar. the money