georger

It sure sounds wrong based on what Ckret has told us right? Like I mentioned, I wondered if Michael Taylor had made up the quotes. I sent him email a while back, but got no answer. I believe I had him quoting R. on the 30 degree issue some other place, which I disbelieved until we got the 2nd ckret transcript. Taylor could just be cobbling together random info of unknown source. I only bring it up again, because I ran into the article, and I remembered Rataczak on the Discovery show. Posted right at Xmas - I wasnt even here. Sorry I missed it. I dont think Taylor could instal quotes as a writer at the SFC if these were not quotes - and not get slammed for it. Its tantamount to invention if he did and he would be open to severe criticism... This bears looking into ? G

Sluggo - you do see the quotes around passages in the article, supposedly said by the people quoted. I also wonder where Taylor is today. Maybe you could find him and interview him for a clarification ...

Ive been playing on the Internet. Plugged in /DB Cooper cult/ at Google and quite a lot turned up including many old posts by Jo Weber going way back. Then an amazing article surfaced: an old account of the Cooper hijacking by Michael Taylor of the San Francisco Chronicle, written in 1996. This really is an amazing article with a small wealth of hard information taken from interviews by Michael Taylor with many of the Cooper case principles. Did you know for example, the Federal Prosecutor on the Cooper case was one Jack G. Collins. Any relation to John Collins aka Duane Weber who did time in Washington State? This article includes verbatum statements by William Rataczak and others. Rataczak's statements give a slightly different perspective on the events of 11-24-71 and according to this account, It was co-pilot Rataczak who had been personally assgined the job of 'taking care of' Cooper, if anything came up. It was Rataczak who conducted all negotiations with Cooper, via Mucklow. And it was Rataczak who wanted to dispense with Cooper and kill him, take Cooper out into the ocean and dump him, or whatever was required. This article, if true, confirms the suspicion I have always had from the Transcripts that indeed there was sentiment onboard #305 for getting rid of Cooper, and it was something more than just a sentiment. This article, if a true account, also explains why Rataczak in particular took note of when he thought Cooper had bailed, because Rataczak had been assigned the job of keeping track, and Rataczak radioed that info quickly, and they did squak and blinked their lights as previously requested (in the Transcript). That in Rataczak's mind Cooper was giving technical instructions including 15 degree down flaps! Rataczak flatly says Cooper was technically familiar with the 727 and knew what he was doing. That Himmelsbach indeed was airborn and following behind #305 in an Air National Guard helicopter, but the helicopter was too slow and struggling to keep up .... That the F-106 pilots DID see #305 flash its blinker lights, as 305 had been instructed to do (in the Transcript)! The F-106's were too fast and were flying in wide S-arcs in order to stay behind #305. They saw Rataczak flash #305's blinker lights as previously arranged, they moved in but never caught sight of Cooper. This article is one of the missing links I have been looking for... it adds context to the Transcripts. This article provides context which may lead to an explanation for the flight comms blackout in the Transcripts, immediately following Cooper's bail. This article makes it clear immediately following Cooper bailing, they knew he had bailed, were searching for any sign of him, and had much to discuss "privately". This period is simply gone from the Transcripts. (But I am willing to bet there is a transcript or two of this period somewhere.) The url for this SF Chroncile 1996 article is: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/D.B+COOPER'S+LEAP+INTO+INFAMY+:+DARING+HIJACKER+ESCAPED+BY+JUMPING...-a084004103 I will post some snips from this article later tonight - Georger codeword today is: Glasgow

The CIA rumour was right as we know from stuff here, but the 727 bit is of more interest?? I don't see a date for the "later" although the pic he refers to was taken in 1983 and he started with the smokejumpers in 1980. But, unless I am misreading the above...here we have info on smokejumpers jumping a 727. Can't remember if Evergreen had cut its CIA ties by then - will go back and check later. Source: (pretty short and interesting) http://flickr.com/photos/25387106@N06/2451897212/in/pool-federalfire [aside: So, I found a vet who was involved with the CIA, spent time at Udorn, was in the US at the right time and back in SE Asia from Dec 1971 Only one tiny picture of him that I could find in which he could look like DB Cooper or just about anyone else Anyway not gonna mention names, it's pure speculation and I haven't been able to determine his age (tho the tiny pic makes him look like he could be right...)] very good... any specifics on the hanger(s) or ops at udorn? I can ask around - G

Maybe he had Milk-of-Magnessia in the brown paper bag! Or, a photo of his beloved. Maybe a pistola! Maybe his Tonka fold-down-light sabre. I searched old posts and no word from Ckret on if the bag was left on the plane, that I can find. I think it would have been listed in news articles if it was left on the plane. The FBi did not have to release any info about things left behind. Now, if he has no gun and his bomb is a phony, where does this leave Mr. Cooper if push comes to shove? "I give up". Thats where it leaves him. So, he's a Mentalist, or a fool or both. Did Duane carry any weapon, beyond Jo? G. codeword tonight is: MIKE61. (got that Jo?) CB gear would have made sense. Paper bag? Briefcase? Accomplice presumably would have got a decent cut to keep his (or her) silence...

There is a term I havent heard in YEARS! How they used to scare us kids with threats of being sent off to Reform School. Teachers, cops, scoutmasters even parents all used the threat. I never really knew what it was but imagined something like a brutal kids jail where you were fed gruel and beat up by bullies. The threats didn't deter me from adventures though, but it kept me wary of cops because I figured they could just throw me in a car and drop me off at Reform School. I had no concept of due process. I have always wondered if Norjack was Cooper's first major crime. The fact that they didnt match his description or prints? to any criminal records makes me think it might have been. 377 It would seem it was his first and only major crime, by his methods, but we dont know what the FBI knows. In addition, the systems that might lead to an answer arent available to us to know (or to Snow either). This is why we are restricted to the kinds of discussions we can have. G.

I keep thinking of accomplice too - if he survived. Perhaps back to the flares? How far can you see flares like that (and how useful would they actually be in that area at night) - just wondering out loud here about things that i (clearly) know very little about! The "fusee" sulphur type road flares would not have been much use at a great distance on the ground unless Cooper was elevated and had a line of sight to his accomplice. http://www.emergencyresponderproducts.com/roadflares.html I lived near a railroad yard as a kid and there were lots of flares just lying around near the tracks. The RR workers used them all the time and just had stashes of them all over the place. We would pick a couple up, take them far away and ignite them. They were nothing special as a long distance signalling device. They didnt light up the sky or anything like that. We did get 10 miles between two $29 Lafayette CB walkie talkies that only had a tenth of a watt of transmitter power when one person was on a hilltop that had a line of sight to the other person. If Cooper had a cheap walkie talkie and his accomplice went to a high mountain peak, 10 or 15 miles would be no problem. Basically if Cooper could see the peak or even a point on the slope, he could talk to someone who was located at the location he could see. There are a lot of folks on this forum (like G) who know FAR more about radio communications than I do and they can chime in on this subject. 377 Same scenario here 'cept we took our flares to the highest hill just east of town, on a Judge's farm!, got them lit, lit up the whole country side, Judge's geease cackling below on a pond, and the next thing we know we hear firetrucks coming down the highay! We ran like hell ... but our chums at school were good at keeping secrets - my grandmother was the Superintndent of Schools! We all were sure we were headed for Reform School! We still talk about this stuff at class reunions! My buddy that night became a Lt Col in the Air Force ... I am sometimes amazed we survived alf the stuff we did - but it was good prep for becoming a Father with three sons - and picking a good wife, who keeps order!

dark skin.... hmmm again but environmental vs genetic. (Dark vs Olive or Dark & Olive) Example: Christiansen, a northern light skinned Scandinavian. No way does he fit the profile

yeah, i did say i was looking for something else... Georger - it was me who said the sketch looked younger. Sketch aside, it seems (if you look at some of those links) more than a few of those smokejumper types would have been born in the mid-late 1930s (I estimated 2 being born in 1938), which would make them in their mid-slightly late 30s at the time of the hijack - not hugely out on the age estimate of 40-45? Hmm.. just thinking as I write this, smokejumper types (remember a lot of these guys did stuff like logging in the offseason as well as CIA stuff in Asia!) would probably be fairly "weathered" and perhaps look older than they really are. anyone who works outside is going to be more weathered sooner or later... but.. you do have one thing going for you. People used to be more physically active longer into their lives ( the generations born before and around 1930 - ( the WWI and WWII generations). So its not impossible that Cooper could be one of these and fit. Its just that sooner or later demography takes over and you have to keep that in mind vis-a-vis potential candidates... thats my thought. What happened to Snowmman?

I dont know. I have sat here for months saying nothing but, the poster looks younger than 47-50's to me! Another thought: he's 45 to early 50's but in damned good physical condition which sometimes makes a person look younger. To me: something doesnt add up in this age estimate as seen in the poster, or Im missing something. I could easily be persuaded he is on the low side of 45 and not a day older. I wish I had his DNA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! G.

QuoteAbsolutely fascinating stuff Orange. What first appeared to be a very tangential connection between the CIA and smoke jumpers has become major direct linkage. I had no idea that Arctic intelligence gathering jumps were made with Fulton Skyhook recoveries. Rep: It is fascinating. A world of its own. Especially the Arctic stuff. It shows you how far technology and people have come since .... Amundsen, Shackelton, etc stuck in ice flows for years! We now go in and come out like it was a holiday. (and they say we cant colonise Mars!). G.

Sorry Georger, I know you think this kind of thing is a waste of time, but I also know some other posters find it useful...so I will continue. No I never said that - with the Jo-thing going on its been pretty hard to get a clear thought through. I dont say its a waste of time, just low Probability connecting to Cooper based on his age. I tried to help pointing out Udorn and UTapao but Snow didnt think that productive. I know those bases had 727 skunk works activity, possibly with 727 drop missions out of there. UD and UT were Tactical bases meaning lots of coordinating activity occuring there between different services and agencies, especially in places we werent supposed to be in. But again, Cooper misses the age cutoff unless he was an officer and a career man. There is one possibility: his age estimate is rong and he's younger than claimed. Someone already said the photo looks younger. It does to me also. But that could be just me. Ckret seemed pretty firm about Coop's age, whether the poster looks it or not. If Cooper was younger then Vietnam becomes viable but, Vietnam was a HUGE theatre. WWII also. Like looking for a needle in haystacks sold to different States! So I never said it was a waste of time - just low probability ........ press on. I know you like it! G.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass...... Your posts, going way back, interest me. I have the feeling you have some pretty strong views concerning the Cooper case, and what happened. Care to share those views with us? It could be beneficial ... Georger The only strong view I have is that he could easily have survived the jump and a night walking or hiding. I have a strong view about the thread too. It really isn't the place for personal fighting and attacks between Mrs. Weber and others. It just makes the thread distasteful and fucking shitty. Sure, some of her posts are a bit hard to stomach, but the same applies to other's posts. Would anyone, including Mrs. Weber, be willing to commit to a unilateral cease-fire, and if necessary just ignore each other's posts? Jim Justy read 377's. I sign up too. I'm glad I asked and respect your point of view. IMHO we also need more people contributing in this forum .... Thanks, Georger

Don't let the door hit you in the ass...... Your posts, going way back, interest me. I have the feeling you have some pretty strong views concerning the Cooper case, and what happened. Care to share those views with us? It could be beneficial ... Georger

Yup. After 2 decades of going after Cooper I am also intrigued as to why he settled on Gossett. Because that's where his METHODS took him. The Gossett Story came to Cook (free); he didnt have to go out and dig for it. Im watching two kids throwing snowballs at a HUGE icecycle over their heads - directly over their heads. They know nothing about gravity ... velocity ... and yep sure enough one is now on the ground and staff are going out to give assistance. That (what the kids did) is METHODS! Find the guy who can tell us what is in the brown paper bag and what brand of bourbon got served. What Tina smelled like. Which leg Tina limped on. The pitch of Scott's voice. The colour of the pulled parachute. Details inside the plane jon. ..... someone whose prints match one of the 69 prints found at the scene, someone who can explain how the money got on Tina Bar (via the Willamette!!). g.

Have you ruled out Gossett completely? He sure was qualified to do it .... 377 You see that is the very thing that bothers me. I must be missing something? How qualified did you have to be to do this? Anyone can fall out the back of an airplane with a parachute on? The territory is benign (Scotton - south) unless he was unlucky and hit a water area. The chute is reliable and slow IF he got it open. The weather below 5000ft survivable for a while. The fall dead-certain unless he spins etc. All of these parametrs have neen well- defined by the experts here at Dropzone. If he lands and is mobile, his next challenge is avoiding detection and escape. He got in and out of Portland once - he can do it twice ad I do not see that highly specialised skills are required as much as luck. G.

Georger, don't do a Jo on us please. You say you have reason to believe Cooper jumped where he felt comfortable doing so - why? Reply> not much chance of that. I am the guy that beats everyone up - "GET MORE DATA" - as Tom Kaye can testify to. You must have me confused with ................... Because so far as I can tell, everything Cooper did was within his comfort zone, to the extent he had control, and the moment anything got beyond his comfort zone he let people know, fast! He first selects a person he can deal with comfortably (Mucklow), he then requires as low a profile as possible, he refuses to talk and doesnt expend much effort negotiating, he keeps people away from the plane, he wants cabin lights off and blinds pulled, ... he creates a literal cocoon of protection which benefits everyone, he asks Tina be the one to open the door (there is cockpit discussion: should be tied in for her safety), he takes time to get the stairs out and get prepared, he waits until the plane is slowed and trimmed, he does not bail at first opportunity but waits, lights of Vancouver-Portland are coming up and Rataczack can see them, then he presumably bails somewhere in this time period. That is no cowboy but somebody operating within a comfort zone, as I see it. So, what would a person like this want to do during his jump and afterward if he survives? Would a person like this ever tell somebody or brag afterwards? Would a person like necessarily be in or even qualify for military service. He goes into a spasm of joy at the sight of the money and offers Tina some. He tells Tina he will not blow up the plane - with his FAKE bomb! He says he has a Grudge but Tina describes him as sad. He jumps out of the airplane vs changing his mind and giving up to authorities. This is not someone who is necessarily skilled or sees himself as invulnerable .... from the point of view of LE he is a rotten stinking skilless coward ... but he has just jumped into the Mouth of the World and he alone is going to have to manage that! And we never have any sign of him again except for some money spilled or lost through some series of events at Tina Bar, Washington ... straight down stream a short distance from the Columbia-Willamette confluence. That is perspective . . . g. G

Not necessarily. That Cooper knew of or was even involved with the 727 airdrop tests is probably "good" speculation (at least by consensus of those who have commented here) and should serve to narrow rather than widen the scope. There is clearly some area however where the scope must be widened vs the original investigation...or cooper would have been found already? Yes necessarily. The devil is Time. Time = Probability. The greater the time the wider the sample within which some match will occur, inevitably. What does: 'That Cooper knew of or was even involved with the 727 airdrop tests is probably "good" speculation' mean? Nobody has any facts which incline one to believe such connections, and in fact th FBI believes just the reverse, that Cooper was a novice. In addition. if the age estimate is correct then Vietnam is not a highly probability window. WWII would be the appropriate window of experience, if the FBI is wrong. The far better route is dna and mdna and reconstructive dna. Depending on the partials the FBI has, as time passes better reconstructive dna will come along, if anyone is still interested. and then at least the population is limited. I mean for all we know this man has a recessive gene or two which could further narrow the population. Thatbeats the hell out of looking all all WWII or Vietnam paratroopers on the hope one will spring forth as a high maybe. You would get that high maybe on Random Selection alone! In fact you would get that N! times and more. (Thats N factoral) Time is your enemy in this. Chances are he will be dead by the time anything were to turn up, if he wasn't already dead on the evening of 11-24-71. But, the power of Random certainty is very real in matters of this kind. Why has almost every human on Earth had a very real random esp experience. Random certainty. And it gets very much more specific from there. (Read "Innumeracy".) There is a high rate of certainty that the money at Tina Bar is related in some way to Cooper's fate, if we could only read the tea leaves. Similarly the 305 Placard to the flight path and winds etc. Jo's photo being Tina: P=100 or 0 and no other options. Labyrs spoke of outlines. What he was saying, I think, was 'keep track of the probabilities'. And maybe he was saying more? I dont know. Maybe focus on people who jumped with rounds only? Only Cooper had no idea what types of chutes he was getting and he did not specify. So maybe he was an all-around expert or a novice, maybe a first-timer. I have a feeling he jumped where he felt comfortable jumping and I think I know the reason. It's one of two things and no accident, I think. I see it as a very low probability he hit the Columbia but again maybe he was having a very unlucky day! Random certainty was working against Cooper also, just like it works in all affairs, daily. G.

The problem with all of the wannabe candidates is they fit within the parameters of Random probability. He looks like - he suddenly was rich - I have a ticket from - Dad said - Grandma said - I had a vision - dadwas in vietnm and a paratrooper etc etc etc etc etc. Today even possessing a Cooper $20 bill is not automatic admission. 37 years has raised the bar for both candidates and investigators. That is what Jo Weber never saw coming and can do nothing about; sleuths and fiction writers also. Very likely the FBI has a set of criteria all wouldbe candidates must pass through before they will even be considered. Cooper candidates must pass through the door of low probability and pass through specifically, like a camel through the eye of a needle. Not through the wider doors of high random probability based on anecdotes given on the Art Bell Show etc. After so many years high profile criminals are caught mainly by accident. After 37 years the word 'accident' begins to border on impossible unless something tangible surfaces. By the same token, speculative scenarios begin to widen to the point of total uselessness! We already have examples of that including "Cooper Was a Werewolf" and "My Lady Friend was DB Cooper". . . .

QuoteJo, serious question. If Duane had a daughter, and you found a picture of a little girl, why wasn't your first guess that it's a picture of said girl? Do you have other information? I mean, most other people would have went that way. Why did you go the "Tina way"? The photo paper/processing might be dateable. If it was Tina, it would have to have been taken around when? (fill in your estimate). I'm guessing 1955 or so? Reply: Why mince words? The paper/processing can be dated. There are enough usable pixels in the electronic image to restore it to some degree. You know this - My guess is this all about games. Jo seldom does anything without a reason. And reading Jo's words, I cannot see she has stated the photo is Tina or anyone. But Jo would allow us to talk about it, after Sluggo planted the idea, and Jo would engage in discussion about this photo without revealing anything more. That has come to be Jo's style. Jo could have a million reasons for doing what she does, some of these innocent. No one may ever know especially if Jo does not wish anyone to know. The photo has acted like a Rorsach Test and the only thing Jo posted with the photo were her admonitions to Ckret to go talk to Tina Mucklow. But, if this reaches Tina or Schafner and they get upset Jo will deny everything and blame it on - GEORGER! Except it was Jo who posted the photo and her words were addressed to : " CKRET: Does this put him on the plane? Rather than to continue to speculate - why doesn't Ckret just contact Tina and ask if that is a photo of her and ask her about the "RECIPE FOR LIFE". Remember she spent a lot of time on that plane with Cooper". So, Jo does make the asociation with Tina by her own words, but it is an indirect association. If this is a childhood photo of Tina, how did Jo Weber get it? So Jo is addressing Ckret, not us. Jo is also addressing Tina Mucklow, indirectly. Maybe we as a group were supposed to stay silent! This is between Jo and Ckret and Tina, using this forum. Does Tina know Jo has launched this 'whatever it is' !! Jo has her blog. It is here. All good citizens are directed to come here and read Jo's wisdom and information, as from Delphi. And #1969.234598.B is guarding the gate! Jo is a Homeric Poem, and like Walter Chronkite, SHE WAS THERE!! I guess that is what Jo Weber is saying.

Thank You - I do hope everyone viewed the picture I posted of Tina and the picture in my possession. Not the picture of Tina with make-up and plucked eyebrows, but the one that I am again attaching below. You guys have at it - I have other things going on far more important. NONE of you have known what was going on in the background and why I hesitated and waited - I had my reasons and not for my own good but to protect other people. NOW the FAT LADY WILL SING - besure to wear earplugs. Coming in late March. Have you talked all of this over with Tina? Is Tina aware of what you are doing? Georger

The "teases" are annoying. Yes. They are valueless and there is no point to doing it, except to annoy, and that is malicious in a small way. If there is any information, it should be presented. The "games" have repeatedly been shown to be a waste of time. We are way past the point where the signal-to-noise ratio would validate the idea of putting up with the games. Instead of encouraging anyone to put up with the games, in their many flavors, I would be in favor of their end. That won't happen. For myself, I didn't participate in the last few time-wasters. It is as easy as that. That is my suggestion. People choose to respond or not. I wouldn't want any contributors to leave the forum, merely avoid the pointless part. "When an 89 year old English orthopedic surgeon died last year his heirs were in for just such a surprise. In his garage sat a dusty old vintage car that had been there since he parked it over 45 years ago. Though his family did not know about his rare car, his close friends and many collectors were aware of his prized possession and he would often get letters and calls asking him to sell the car. The car in question is one of just 17 Bugatti Type 57 Atlantics ever built. Experts think it will sell for 4.3 million dollars when it is offered for sale at Bonhams auction in February, but I think that with the high numbers we've been seeing in auctions lately that it will certainly top 5 million dollars." http://www.examiner.com/x-547-Sports-Car-Examiner~y2009m1d5-Rare-Bugatti- Found-in-Garage-by-Drivin-Ivan

Don't let the door hit you in the ass...... Then get out of the way so the door will open, Einstein!

I dont see myself as central to a Cooper discussion. As I see this, it will come down to a consensus of what others want to do. It may even come down to my being invited, or not, just like anyone else. I would prefer it be that way. I have not PM'd anyone about this so far and no one has PM'd me about it. I am "sure" others would want you there. So stay tuned, somebody may contact you. Just for the record, I consider just about everyone here at Dropzone a viable contributing person, except for one person. I thought we had a pretty good thing here for a while, but that obviously has been lost for me personally. At some point somebody is going to have to contact Ckret and see if he would be interested, on any basis. I really hope something develops here we can all live with and all be productive in - without any single agenda dominating (which includes mine!). Georger