georger

QuoteCkret had posted this about the bathroom. I just noticed that the passengers were still on board when he was in the bathroom. ANSWER: Go to this website and download the Transcripts and read them - http://n467us.com/

ANSWER: Go to this website and download the PI and NWA Transcripts for yourself: http://n467us.com/ You will have to read them. Nobody can do that for you.

Concerning Cooper's bomb, I wonder how the FBI decided that he would probably not detonate it if his demands were met? If they figured he would blow up the plane after he exited they would have stormed it on the ground before takeoff don't you think? 377 The FBI made no such decision. Tina pleaded with Cooper and asked, and Cooper replied: 'he would NOT blow up the plane on leaving or after leaving.' Tina turned and went to the cockpit and conveyed that message to the cockpit crew.' It's all in past posts at Dropzone.

and on the other hand there are plenty of real bombers with real bombs .... who is going to second guess it?

And yet everyone still firmly believed it really was a bomb, despite your points above? No, they didnt. They knew it might be a fake. They arent idiots. It was one of the frustrations of the evening, and one of th reason GC asked for Mucklow to give a description of the bomb. But are you going to walk up to Cooper and ask to see and examine the bomb? I suppose following 377's line of thought, they could have pulled out their "Super Duper K-9 Bomb Sniffer" and walked up and pointed the sniffer at Cooper and the briefcase?

yet our conversation here seems to always come back to the idea that the bomb was fake. Can someone remind me why we think this? Do we know for a fact that the bomb wasn't really a bomb? Here, dynamite sticks are not red, but ochre. The sticks in his briefcase were red. Road flares are red. There was also something about the size and shape of the sticks, something about the apparent lack of fuses. Something about the type of battery having enough voltage to set dynamite fuses off. No apparent switch for the bomb. He had the briefcase OPEN showing Tina the bomb briefly and said 'all he had to do was touch these two wires together' and the bomb would go off. Had to OPEN the briefcase to set the bomb off? No outside switch? He kept the briefcase closed the rest of the time! (How is he going to set the bomb off if rushed and cant get the case open in time?) Tina gave a very good description of the bomb, over the radio to ground control.

Yes. I deleted the post. Was copying from a annotated personal copy of the TR,wont do that again, but I didnt make the post in reply to you and what youve been working but to others and their questions-issues ... just too much traffic in too many directions at once here. Cant keep up.

I quoted from the "P. I. Transcript". Sorry!

I thought the two back packs came from Cossey's house, the cops waited at Isq, and he drove and met the cops at there, and they unloaded the backpacks from his tunk into the cop car ...... we have a very complete extensive statement about this somewhere. I have it in my records but it would take time to look up and present - can if need be.

Whether or not he intended that, that is certainly the way it was taken... that is also somewhere in the transcripts. I'm too tired to look for it now (it's late here), will check tomorrow for exact wording on that. Also on the "weapons" etc side, there are a few instances where Cooper repeats he will use the bomb if his requests are blocked/denied. I'm sure that wasn't a chance anyone else was willing to take. Sorry in above to clarify when i said waiting for the chutes - it looks like it was the reserves (chest packs) they were waiting for - tho I am unclear as to whether the mains had already been given over to Cooper or not. I'll check up on that again. heres the timeline: 4:53pm t1 Money has arrived. Waiting on chutes from McChord. FLTOPS: Al Lee is waiting for the chutes from McChord (AFB). Have money with George Harris and as soon as the chutes arrive will be ready to go to aircraft. Now leaving SEADD. The money is at Load Control. 5:22pm t1 Cooper getting very impatient over chute wait. 305: He is getting very impatient for the chutes. Will have to come up with them pretty quickly. SEADD: The chutes should be here any minute now. As soon as arrive will pick them up and be on their way. 305: He has inquired 3 times now about the chutes. He is not accepting the fact that they are not available locally. SEADD: Roger. Assure him this is so. 5:25pm t1 [Lee suggests offloading plane to give to Cooper what has arrived] SEADD: Lee here. Have the 2 back pack chutes and have the money. If can land now and come to back (of the plane) and get the two chutes when they arrive (when we bring them out) and then let the passengers off, we will (agree) to do this. 5:30pm t1 Everything has arrived. Al Lee on way to meet on runway. SEADD: Everything has arrive and All Lee is on the way with all of it. 305: Will begin our descent now. SEADD: Roger. MSPFLTOPS: Don’t hurry too much to allow aircraft to get out there (said to Al Lee) 305: Roger. (agrees but Al Lee not listening!) 5:47pm t1 305 has landed. Cooper goes to hide in Lavatory. MSPFLTOPS: Any word yet? SEADD: The flight is on the ground and they are making preps to hook up the fueling truck. The hijacker is in the LAV (lavatory) and think will stay there for a while. 6:38pm t1 Negotiates release of 2 stews … technical discussion about stairs. 305: Have negotiated release of 2 girls leaving at any moment. 3rd girl Tina Mucklow) to stay with aircraft. H e wants her to manipulate stairs for him after plane is airborne. Have tried to tell him unable to operate stairs to lower position after takeoff. Trying to get him to let us lower stairs partly before takeoff. MSFLOPS: Don’t know of any way to lock stairs in intermediary position. 305: Roger, will talk to him again. 6:59pm t1 [Working on flap angle for extended stairs. Refueling. Mucklow id.] 305: He seems to be insistent with the stairs at 1 one degree. MSP:Impossible to take off with stairs extended but full shut up. 305:Roger. Wants girl (Mucklow) to initiate stairs after takeoff. Should we tie her down to the structure? MSP: Roger. A good idea to tie her to aircraft. 305: Roger. And, on the issue of front vs back stairs being used: 305: Advised him 7:22 pm MSP:Roger. Sea Reno is about 5 hundred miles. Will ND other stops of about that leg of 5 to 6 hundred miles. 305: Roger, will plan Reno first stop. MSP:Roger. A second stop is Yuma Arizona. Its 87 miles on 076 rdl of San Diego, the 2nd VOR On the NR2 side of San Diego and the distance 120 miles instead of 87miles. 305:Roger MSP. Fuel truck left. Stair removed. Will have all leave the area and forward door has been closed. He has agreed to let us leave with stairs in full up position. and he has called and said “Go”to get the plane on the road.

what FOAM! ? Thats brand new. Ckret says Coosey claimed that the dummy reserve contained a white canopy. I may have been remembering something SkydiveJack posted about dummy reserves containing soft material that could be quickly restuffed after practice pulls in training. I guess I was mistaken about the foam, sorry. Reply: I dont know, maybe it did have foam packing, but I cant recall anything from Cossey that ever said that? In fact what we have had are a few people asking: 'well wouldnt Cooper have detected the chute was not full due to missing panels?' Its the kind of thing that cant be answered and so far as I know Cossey never said anything about foam ??? Its an intriguing idea! A foam filled container would help with boyancy in a water landing!

My impression is the front door behind cockpit via stairs with the rear of the plane never opened. In addition and more important, we have opening/ cracking the rear door BEFORE TAKEOFF which comes up after passengers deplaned, later in the Transcripts. If the rear door had already been opened and used to deplane the passengers, then its already open and not an issue - I also think this because Hancock and Schafner are always spoken of (after landing) as being at the front or near the front of the airplane, and stews bringing things up the stairs at the front, and ... once the passengers had deplaned an issue developed and Scott radios and complains: ' cant you group those people together and get then away from the plane, and keep them away from the plane, we cant have them coming back - we just had one guy come running back that forgot his suitcase and we had to INTERCEPT HIM AND THROW HIM OFF THE STAIRS!' ... that implies: everything happening at the front of the plane. I think all the activity was at the front of the plane. (AL LEE in his car out front of the plane with the chutes and money, and all of that) G.

what FOAM! ? Thats brand new. Where did you get this? It cant be a Cossey statement??? The chute was a dud - a demonstrator - grabbed by mistake. Th fact that Cooper apparently took this chute with him (it was not on the plane at Reno) and cut up a good reserve etc is part of the scenario Ckret uses to claim Cooper was inexperienced. Where are you getting this foam idea from, as it applies to this particular case?

"Summary" : 5.47PM PST: "The hijacker is in the lav and think will stay there for a while" (This was before they started to relay the instructions about where Cooper wanted to go, flaps, stairs etc.) Verbatim transcript: "OK he at the present time is in the lavatory and apparently desires to stay there at the present time." ( Sluggo has this at 5:43/5:47 - "17:43 – 17:59 PST: Early in this period Flt 305 reports Cooper in lavatory. Passengers are unloaded and fueling of the aircraft begins." This is long before chutes or money have been brought to the plane. Once the passengers are off, Cooper comes out and goes back to his seat in the rear with Mucklow... It appears he did this to ward off suspicion from the passengers getting up and leaving ... Keep in mind, Cooper had demanded everything be ready when 305 landed. It wasnt. He was shooting for a 15 minute turn around time ... which expands to almost 2 hours! (Average turn around time for cleanup of cabin and refueling was 15-26 min: from prior NWA notes presented by Sluggo). It appears Cooper wasnt in the Lav much longer than it took to get passengers deplaned ... it is also obvious even when in the Lav he is still communicating through the door - G.

But it was Tina who brought it up. Cooper didnt ask. Her remark could bee taken to imply: 'we might go higher than 10k and you might need need oxygen". There was no guarantee that they might go to 15k, out of error? In that light Cooper's brushing it off is interesting. Especially since they discussed the option of going higher and putting him asleep! Tina seems to have erased that option!

QuoteI guess I never gave the idea of crew experience serious thought. I think someone who served on a flight crew would never do something like this to another flight crew. I suppose guys like McCoy who was military helicopter pilot did it to a flight crew. But he was Guard right? I guess I'm not sure what direction the discussion about ax and rope is supposed to be going. I don't see what it says. Now if Cooper asked for the rope and axe, that would have said something. But him not referring to them? I don't see how it tells us anything? But, Cooper did keep his distance from the cockpit. Refused to allow anyone from the cockpit to enter the cabin area. Refused to allow Mucklow back into the cockpit. We also have this business of Cooper asking about or being shown the oxy bottles (over his head). I forget what was decided about that, but Ckret chimed in.... In other words he is exploring or being shown aspects of the plane, presumably he asked to be shown? I agree a negative is empty but even a negative occurs in context.

We've spoken at length about the possibility Cooper had exposure to parachutes this way, but i don't think anyone has raised this particular point before - and it is a good one. several of the skydrivers mentioned this before ... the one does not automatically imply the other - Cooper landing and leaving footprints on the ground would imply skill or luck ---- if we can find footprints of Lucy north of you why not here!!! Just kidding.

Just to review, we know Scott discussed the crew 'bailing out' (Scott's words) of the cockpit, but they could not get Mucklow forward (with the meal ploy). The rope presented tonight may have been the means? That would have a slow method... A bomb is all-encompassiong if kept in hand. Broad deterent to being attacked (the axe). Mutal destruction.... but, did he actually have the bomb in hand or very clsoe by, at all times. Dont forget, Nyrop ORDERED everyone to cooperate. (This is one of the reasons Rat's singular desire to 'kill the bastard' stands out to me. Orders or no orders, I do think they all wanted rid of Cooper.) Snow is correct - keeping order/peace is vital to Coop's security. Its central to what Cooper actually did ... the plan he personally put into operation. Comfort zone = survival for all. His first act is selecting Mucklow .... and rejecting Schafner, as I see it. New thought: if Coop had known about this rope would it have been useful to him in securing the money or in bailing? G.

He raises excellent points.. Until this I didnt even know these items existed. (The behavioral line just sloped back toward Ckret's baseline). Excellent! MORE MORE! TELL HIM TO JOIN US HERE.

Duc tape might be seen: you can just slap a wad of fast plumber's epoxy putty on it (in the joint) and it wont go anywhere...

Also, georger was going on about weapons. Cooper likely used his own knife, rather than cutlery to cut the lines. There are a number of cases of hijacker threatening stewardess with knife, I remember one case where the knife was held to her throat. Georger might say Cooper wouldn't have advanced to such violence, but who knows. That was one of the advantages of having a stew close by? maybe? "going on"? - When you have a bomb, who needs to display any other weapon ? - where was the bomb at all times during the hijacking. Did he always have the bomb closeby. ? Where was the bomb when he was putting on the chute?

It may be as simple as whether he could stand on and bail from partially extended stairs - would they support weight and extend far enough away from the aircraft... the Transcript has extensive exchanges on the subject ... G.

Did a quick check on Michael Taylor. He has a huge vita. Son of a well known Hollywood writer-producer. Graduate cum laude in journalism from the UC system. Long time staff writer and Editor at the San Franciso Chronicle. Survived two mergers. He has a mile long list of researched articles. Has an economics background and specialises at the SFC in commodities trading issues, specialisation in metal and copper trading, general articles on economics, and edits Car - section! Taylor is still at the Chronicle, and available by email. Snow would undoubtedly find a lot more but Taylor has a very long list of credits with Google - It would be interesting to talk to him about his Cooper article. Cant find that he has written anything further about Cooper since 1996 - G.

Dont know about you, but I find it astounding the 727 could gear down to the 128!? - 136 knot range and still be in control, in the air. If Cooper knew this he definately picked the right airplane... If he didn't know this he picked the right airplane! G.

Thats my understanding also - Sluggo gave a tutorial on flap settings early last year (have to stop saying this year) - his list was very complete so we can look that up. One thing I noted when Ckret was here: he constantly distinguished between 'things in the interview' vs 'things not in the interview/s' The former facts. The latter myth or unproven. Of course Ckret is reading from interviews and sticking with those exclusively? So if Rat does not say X Y or Z in an interview, then X Y or Z are not true, cannot be true? You see the absurdity of that if applied universally. (I think you said the same once). Taylor can be found and asked about his article. G.