georger

"[snowmman] Dougan Falls: means you don't fly over Portland" Reply: where is this coming from? Nobody has said the FP went "over" Dougan Falls. Can't you understand the man has searched a number of areas, a number of scenarios, and one lead is the hydrologist's report. That is all there is to this. You are always free to solve it on your own. Put your hiking boots on! I think we all know what the answer to that is. Computers and bright ideas cannot solve everything. Maybe a walk and some fresh air would help?

I just looked at it, and was surprised to see that Cooper referenced Phoenix in the debate. After playing with the flight path software a lot, saying Phoenix is a little bit sophisticated in terms of knowledge. Maybe it just shows knowledge of cities in the Southwest etc. Hell, if he knows about Phoenix, why the hell are we all excited that he knows about Tacoma? Reply: Because the reference to Tacoma is a direct reference from the plane with distance and a timesacale attached on Cooper's part, coming into SEA - while the reference to Phoenix is more abstract. Its like the difference between your being correct about the assignment of Reno in the Transcript and then passing judgement on Jerry Thomas' life asnd compariong him to Jo Weber. The one does not logically connect or prove the other, and I am very sure about that, unlike my slipup on Reno (on the spur of the moment in the middle of chaos here). I dont see anyone getting "excited" about Tacoma in any event, just taking note of what Cooper said. But the context is different. Phoenix/Mexico vs. Tacoma. The plane wasnt coming in to land over Phoenix. On the other hand we have Ckret's view: that Cooper didnt know where he was and didn't really care. That point of view would tend to fit with your statement: "Hell, if he knows about Phoenix, why the hell are we all excited that he knows about Tacoma?" And this fits with your view then you have a conumdrum, because you instinctively dont agree with or believe ANYTHING Ckret says. Has it crossed your mind that Jerry's current search is just one of many searches in different areas he has considered, and the flight path isnt necessarily his single sole reason for searching an area. He may be searching areas where he thinks Cooper (or the money) might have gone or wound up, after landing elsewhere. Unlike you, I dont see that Jerry or his actions are one-dimensional and on a par with Jo's activities over 13+ years. Getting straight to the heart of this, I dont even think you do equate Jo and Jerry. I think what you are really saying here is to be able to talk to Jerry personally and Sluggo can probably arrange that. (Your tantrum of brilliance was not required to accomplish that). That's my guess. Maybe Cooper was from Phoenix and knew Phoenix like the back of his hand, but only mentioned Phoenix in passing. How can we know? It isnt like Cooper left a resume with the FBI before boarding flight #305. He mentioned Phoenix once in passing. He gives a whole explanation for Tacoma, by comparison. Maybe the larger fact that matters is that he hijacked at Portland going to Seattle, and he did not hijack at Phoenix or in CA going to Mexico? *Jo Weber would have us believe the whole thing was centered in Washington because Duane knew Washington. The real Dan Cooper may not have known Washington at all. Why dont you make arrangements to talk to Jerry Thomas and come out of your cave, and stop speculating? To me it would seem like the sane thing to do?

Duhh - What's New? It also puts the plane where Duane took me - Up the Washougal to a trailer park where he used to know someone who live there and turn around and cut across Coffey road. This is after he took me to the place where the Cabins used to be at Lake LaCames and everything that was across the lake and the power lines and the pipelines and Camp Bonneville and a tower that used to be there and 2 air strips. The point where Duane said "That's where Cooper walked out of the Woods". Ah so this forum comes full circle and we are right back where we started, but with a lot more knowledge and a lot of crap we had to wade through. So we have the Place Card off the Aft stairs in one place, other estimates that put the plane over Orchard and Brush Prairie area and Jerry who put him at the Washougal . Then we have me saying he landed near the tracks and that he walked the pipelines and power lines to reach LaCames and walked out of the woods at a creek near there. Crossed the lake went over the hill to a logging feeding station and then to the marina where he take a boat on a ride right back at them. Holds up in a cabin near the Airport, but on the Vancouver side and awaits his chance to get out...or for his accomplice to pick him up. He uses the Bomb battery to operate his communication device. All over the Map - from Tena's bar and the Columbia to the Washougal - I am exhausted, but here we go again. Think I will just sit back and relax - and do what I should have been doing for the past few yrs. Enjoy Life.

This was his most recent (I think) reply to you: "good replies - thanks." Those replies are Jo's (not mine) .... Einstein. Me Georger. She Jo. You = with a comb up your ass.

Anyway V-23 was settled-on BEFORE takeoff. Sluggo_Monster And Reno was set in place of Sacremento once they were in the air? Correct?

I forgot to add: If you recall I asked Ckret specifically when he was here: Did Scott say EAST OR WEST OF THE FP? Ckret answered: EAST .... I dont know where this comes from! I dont know if it started with Tosaw or where. Its rather confused (I think). But wherever it came from its was real enough for Larry to talk about it and answer speficially - east. Then you tried to debunk this as myth, and you thought you had, and nobody said much of anything because I dont think any of us knew what to say.... that is the reason it is still alive. (with me at least). [I dont know what Wayne or anyone else is going to say about this. But I think there is something to this... just as Shelly's description of the winds brings back the Contenental pilots wind description which I know for a fact H rejected .... and the strange part of that is neither Scott nor Rat said squat about severe winds or severe crosds winds at altitude over PDX ............... I dont know. We need answers to these lingering issues, as I see it. Hope you agree? ] I must run and do errands .......... or I get killed at 7:00pm. OK?

My source is: it keeps coming up. I dont know if the meeting ever occurred or not, but it keeps coming up in coversations behind the scene here. The only person that can verify if Scott told H (at H's retirement) he was east of V23, is H himself. It sounds as if Shelly and Jerry may know something more. They know H very well. They can ask H if they chose to. Let's just be patient especially now that we have solid sources to work with. This is a golden opportunity and we must cover these bases and settle old myths etc... Georger

Georger, even, implied that we can narrow down a DZ (when I said there wasn't enough info for anyone to say they knew where the DZ was)..and now we're revisiting DZ's east of the flight path. What I said was "someone thinks" they have narrowed down the drop zone. By a newer comparison of the FBI map and the PI Transcript\ after Sluggo did his work. This will all work out. Just be patient. I cannot say more. There are other people involved. I cannot comment on THEIR WORK! Sluggo and Ckret are both aware of this. Jerry obviously has done his own work also, has his own opinions, so at some point all of these matters will come together. We are all working toward the same end. I really think you need to be patient and wait for people to get their ducks in a row, while you do your own work also (of course). I just know for a fact people are working on this, and it will all come together hopfully very soon. Nobody will be left out... Thanks, Georger

yes this came up before - here are two topo views I put together of the stebbins creek + dougan falls area. As jpegs they arent good quality but give an idea where and what is being talked about - I looked through the views at historic aerials some time back and didnt see anything that turned me on, but if you see something you think is good please bring it here? edit: here is also a view with Tina Bar labeled.. to give perspective...

You can see you'd take V495 nowadays...just E of V23 (the part before PDX) But it's hard to argue with Sluggo's assertion that the Mexico+10,000 ft demand basically set a flight path. Why didn't they go to SFO? doesn't make sense to me that they went to Reno. Reply - I agree with Suggo too. The decision was passed up from the ground based on someone parachuting, I mean the route V23 - but the destination not set until a bit later once airborn and then it became Reno (based on? fuel?) But, Jerry seems to be concentrating on his area some some reason. I keep going back to Scott telling H he thought after reflecting, he was EAST of V23... that brings us to the area Jerry is searching. I think!???

Not me! nor me either, thank God!

Duane's medical condition is mentioned in Doug Pasternak's article on Duane. Duane had polycystic kidney disease PKD as early as 1970. Jo has always insisted here that it was not serious and Duane had a full healthy active life.

There seems no reason to contact him now, which is a relief.. but someof his people deserve a lot of credit for coming up here to help out after our massive floods last year. These people brought all of their experience from NewOrleans even though they are still up to their necks in work ... some of our folks had gone down to help them so I guess they were just returning the favour but these are VERY FINE PEOPLE - REAL ANGELS! (To have something about Pitt surface here re-Duane Weber boggles my mind. What next? Apollo-13? Noah's arc? I mean it does get a bit much at times...) But if I do see Pitt I will get the autograph for your daughter .. unless she has already got it herself first!) Ground penetrating radar. Yes. We have a guy here who worked on several NASA projects - vlf radar - looking for H2O on the Moon and Mars. They used that in Jo's back yard!? Good grief. Who? NASA? Ive never used the stuff and dont know about it except in theory .... but Dr Donald Gurnett does. Walked out via RR tracks? Ive lost track. I thought it was a logging road, and a high line path ? I honestly have lost track.

Jo says:

You are probably going to make it that way. So you are probably right -

Reply> Trying to reconstruct this - Jo went to Portland in 2001, five day trip, for a filming of her story. The filming was done in Portland? Jo had made several prior trips to Washington, one with Duane? In her 2001 filming trip she wanted to find places she and Duane had visited earlier, or places she thought relevant to Duane's claim of being Cooper. Jo contacted the Thomas' in order to get help finding the right places, but Jerry Thomas could make no sense of the places Jo was talking about? Presumably the filming went forward without identifying or mentioning any of the places relevant to Jo's story that Duane was DB Cooper? Included in these places is a power line and logging road Jo says Duane walked out of after landing. Precisely where these are I do not know. However, Tom Kaye also asked me (if I knew where these were?) after Tom read Jo's story. I do not know if Tom has been able to identify this power line and logging road, the shed, all contained in Jo's story. Presumably Jerry Thomas could make no sense of the places Jo was asking about. So, by the end of the filming five days later, Jo is sitting outside her Hotel waiting for a ride, and a truck driver (Angel Udell) walks up and asks if she can help. Angel Udell takes Jo in her truck and they are able to find each one of the places or landmarks Jo had been looking for ... which Jo thinks fills out the details of how Duane walked out of the woods after landing, 11-24-71. The above I have pieced together using Jo's posts below: starting with her replies to Shelly Thomas, and then ending with Jo's first post on this matter. """It is not I who could not keep my information straight - I tried without success to describe the places. ----------------------------- How could I change anything - I couldn't get anyone to understand where the places where - I even tried to draw a picture. I tried to find Jerry before I went out there, but I had lost contact with him. I wanted him to see what I found that last day. He kept going other places and didn't think the locations I tried to tell him about where important. He consistently told me that Washougal could not be on my left unless I was going South - but I found it and I found what I thought was a river - it was a long lake. It was all there. I don't remember sending a letter unless it is where I tried to draw the site and if I mentioned LaCames it had to have been after the trip. Dollars Corner was STILL there when I was in WA. I did not try to undermined Jerry's credibility - just the ability of anyone to understand what I was describing on the phone hundreds of miles away. Other than that I said NOTHING Sluggo had not said. Jerry is good man and he tried to help...but I couldn't communicate to him in a manner he could understand - the area I tried over and over to describe. """ and Jo's first post on this matter: """ Interesting statistics. The woman was a truck driver in the area for 20 or 30 yrs. Not going to the notes to be exact - but that was 2001 and if she had been driving for 20 yrs that is 1981. She approached me telling me I seemed troubled. I was waiting on my ride and sitting on a bench in front of the Hotel. She asked if I had a problem (I didn't think I looked like I was troubled). I told her she couldn't help me because I was looking for places I had been told didn't exist. This is when she told me she had been a truck driver in the area for 20 yrs and pleaded with me to describe them. During the 5 prior days no one took me to anything that vaguely matched what I saw in 1979. She did not hesitate to tell me the locations of the places I described and her directions where specific. The locations were dead on - I will never forget that day as long as I live. I am not particularly religious, but earlier I had thrown a flower into the Columbia and spoke out loud to God and to Duane - "I have been here for 5 days and I don't know anymore than I did the 1 st day. It's all up to you guys now." Over an hour later - my "prayer" is answered. The trip to WA was not futile. Why was she at the front door of the Hotel if she was making a delivery of some sort? This hotel was on the Portland side of the river...the address she gave me was also Portland - and when I contacted the business at that address - they never heard of her. I expect she gave me a fake name and the address of one of her deliveries, but WHY. Hence - Why I call her my Angel Udell. ''''

DING DING DING!!!! We have a winner! Laughing. I may have a cigar. I finally won something. Im on a roll! .......

PS Georger: They used ground detecting radar in the backyard and dug Symba up that same month. I have sold the house and no longer live in the area. I dont have the faintest idea what you're talking about. I do know this. I feel a huge sense of relief. You are finally OFF MY BACK and now have to deal with others, and my sense is: this is only the beginning. Shelly (and Jerry) describe you as always being confused and even aggressive with your information. That rings a bell! It fits with the way you have conducted your business here and in other forums. My grandmother lived in the State of Washington. Likewise one of my aunts & uncles and their whole family. I still have a ton of cousins there. You, on the other hand are a complete outsider and that seems rather obvious to me. You went up to Portland on a trip with a story, and suddenly you are an expert on the whole area clear back to the Washougal ... compared to people who have lived in Washington their whole lives. And you spend far more time talking than you do listening. I dont give a rat's ass if you are a CELEBRITY, or think you are! To me you are just plain - Dinky Dao! Georger

Wasn't that McCoy's alibi? If this is so why didn't Larry just say so? I do wish Larry was still around (posting) here. Still, it's interesting to see some clear demons have been stirred up here. From Jo's reaction I understand why she tried to undermine Jerry's credibility before he got anywhere near here. It's not the first time she has tried this tactic of course (don't like the argument? attack the person - another good example is Galen Cook). I'm sure the rest of us will prefer to make up our own minds about who, indeed, is more credible. Yes. Why didn't Ckret just say: Duaner was at home Thanksgiving 11-24-71? He finally did say in essence: 'we know everything there is to know about Duane' ... and Jo blew her cork for the umpteenth time. Im wondering at this point if the whole damned thing shouldn't be sent to the Justice Dept. for a review and let them sort this out. I may be wrong, but I 'think' the issue of Duane being with his family 11-24-71 has come up here before. I dont know who or in what context. But the issue is not new or unique to this forum, or unique to Duane. The issue has come up for every candidate. I notice Jo's first defense again is "my health". She's been using that canard for years - as she goes on the attack! But, this is not a he-said she-said situation. The FBI knows. If Duane was NOT with his family 11-24-71 then let JO WEBER PROVE IT! It's her case. The matter with Duane being with Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise! That really is bizarre. I can get to Brad Pitt rather easily, as others could also. Jo has a lot of explaining to do ....

Call his information BS if you want, but let's keep the personal name calling out of this ok? Simmer down. Looks to me like Jo Weber could have used this months ago? I know you're serious.

says page cannot be displayed - ??? Must be something only you and Jo know about.

This whole area is rugged, 1000-3500 elevations. The area NE of the falls along stebbins creek consists of very thin feeders flowing toward stebbins creek which then begins to widen toward the falls. I see a lot of catch basins where things could hang up or perhaps even be buried in sediments. Metal chute parts? Jerry has probably already thought this out. Its quite a distance and quite a drop before you get to the Columbia. What immediately comes to mind is Scott's last remark to Himmeslbach that he was more EAST of the fp than originally thought. That with a north east drift? might place him in this area except this does not fit wth Rataczack's "could see the suburbs of Portland". I want to make one remark. We have had several people here suddenly saying " was in the suburbs of Portland". That is not what Rat said. He said "could see" the suburbs, not "was in". But Jerry must have a basis for thinking this area is important ...

metal detector, possibly IR from a helicopter on a cool day if tree cover permits, and there are dogs trained to snif out metal parts ... Thomas may have already tried some of this ..

QuoteYay! finally I get georger to try to attack me instead of Jo. Although it's pretty weak, just trying to put words in my mouth. Hey, like Jo does! :) Reply: You enabled Jo bigtime. Dont take your quarrel with Ckret out on me you lowlife. Now we are told by a very reliable witness that everyone has known all along that Duane was with his own family on 11-24-71 And you dont even acknowledge it. Probably dont believe it just to have something to click keys about... What exactly is your function here? Its be nice to Snowmman month! Here we go again! I snipped the rest of your bullshit.

Maybe this is a time to be patient and hold your water? We've been through this before. We know the options. This isnt rocket science. Wait for the party to speak and maybe not call the right kooks "kooks" for a change? Just a thought -