Belgian_Draft

The big whooshing sound was a fact? His name really IS Mr. Neidermeyer? Those are some interesting facts. I have to admit that I had to Google the names to find out what she meant. I've never seen "Animal House", only brief clips that did nothing to move me to watch the whole thing. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

And before they opened fire, no one had been shot. So? It wasn't the NG being there that got anyone killed, it was members of the NG behaving so egregiously, so unjustly and so inexcusably that you cannot blame anyone but them for what they did. They were the only people there that day responsible for killing. I agree 99%. The point that I suggest we come to an impass on is whether or not the protesters caused the situation that directly led to the shooting. I feel they bear partial responsibility for reasons previously stated, you do not. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Just to use your logic then, what illegal and violent action was the homeowner doing when he trod on the bag? The chain of events, in your example there, does not involve anyone else making an illegal, unjustifiable, inexcusable decision after the boy sets those events in motion. The boy intends the homeowner to take the action he did, the rest is bad luck. The protesters did not intend for the National Guard to shoot at them, it is not just bad luck that people were shot and killed. It was the unjustifiable, inexcusable decision of the National Guard to open fire, a decision for which the protesters cannot be held at fault. What do you mean, if I don't think so? I do think so. I have explained, very clearly, several times the parallel between intent and outcome between the analogy and the real world situation. Don't insult both our intelligence by pretending you don't know. The homeowner did nothing wrong, just as the NG did nothing wrong prior to opening fire. My comparison was to show that if the protesters had obeyed the law the NG never would have been there. I guess we are at an impass. I cannot draw a parallel between arape victim and the protesters because of the difference in intent, and you feel that the intent is not relevant. I say we agree to disagree and spend our time picking apart 911 truther threads. I would much rather argue with you than against you. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

What's your favorite flavor of ice cream? I like butter-pecan and home made vanilla w/peaches.

Your guy's data showed that bldg 7 was NOT in freefall, and that the acceleration varied significantly during the collapse. Your guy's data clearly showed it, I pointed it out, and you have ignored it. Forget it. Rhys has started several identical threads, posted the same BS, everybody (myself included) gives him the same answers and replies, and he continues to ignore facts/logic and believes fairy tales/supposition. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

You hold them responsible for other people's criminal decisions, I don't. No, I hold them responsible for illegally and violently creating the situation that led to the illegal and violent decisions of the NG. If you don't hold them responsible for the criminal decisions of the NG then you wouldn't have said that they got anyone shot. People are very often held accountable for the consequences of their illegal activities, regardless of whether those consequences were intentional or not. A juvenlie who puts a sack of burning dog crap on a porch, rings the doorbell and runs can be held responsible for all damages that occur when the owner stomps on the bag, slips, breaks his arm and the house burns down. The kid didn't intend for any of that to happen, but it did and was a direct result of his illegal actions. The porotesters didn't intend for anyone to get shot that day, but people did and it was a direct result of their illegal actions. Had they remained reaceful and obeyed the lawful orders given them the NG would never have even been called in. YOU posted the definition of an anology that contained a requirement for intent. INTENT is everything in this analogy. If you don't think so then please explain what you think the parallel is so we can be on the same page. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Great! We'll go with your definition.

Seriously, you need to get the hell away from those 911 truther sites. Your posts could easily have been written by Tim McVeigh or the Unibomber. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

No, it's not. You're focusing on where there isn't a parallel rather than where there is a parallel. And it is. Parallel != the same. You seem to think that because the situation being discussed is one of violence, the parallel in the analogy must be about violent behaviour. That's clearly wrong. You clearly have no concept about what an analogy is. If one side of the analogy concerns a violent response to a violent action, then the other side must. Otherwise you are comparing apples to sagebrush. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

You hold them responsible for other people's criminal decisions, I don't. No, I hold them responsible for illegally and violently creating the situation that led to the illegal and violent decisions of the NG. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Ok, just how many of the NG soldiers at Kent State were sons of politicians? But you are right about one thing...a big part of the problems of this country can be attributed to people who don't take resaponsibility for their own actions. The protesters and their supporters have been crying for decades that THEY did nothing wrong, but we all know they knowingly and willfully broke the law and incited violence. Our last two Presidents have denied responsibility for their actions and we have paid a heavy price for that. The list goes on and on, I'm sure you know that. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

You owe me a keyboard. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Honey, 99% of what you...and everyone else...does in SC is trolling. You excell better than most at riding that thin line between an acceptable PA and one that gets you a time-out from the mods. As for the rest of your post... It's all "the establishments" fault, huh? To use your own words, give it a rest. That's just a cop-out used instead of taking responsiblity for one's own actions. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Ah yes, more PA's. When somebody holds an opinio we don't like, we insult them. It is a lot easier than trying to understand another's point of view. Or maybe they "just need killin'" if we don't agree with them. After all, that's the military way, right? HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

The key part, right here. The protesters did nothing that justified the NG's decision to fire, they gave the NG no excuse to fire. The protesters bear responsibility for what they did - but they did not get anyone shot. That was solely the fault of the National Guard. And to be perfectly honest - you should feel bad. Well, at least we agree on most of those points. Diff is, I consider their actions to be a direct cause of whatever happened afterwards (justified or not) and you don't. Here's some advice for you to consider through life: Whatever you do has consequences. It is wise to consider all consequences before doing something drastic. And, uh, why should I feel bad? I sympathise with those two innocent students who did nothing wrong, but I find it difficult to feel sorry for those who were actively and violently protesting and got shot. But that doesn't mean i think they deserved it. Hmmm ok Mr Neidermeyer whatever you say. Dean Wormer would be proud Too bad you always have to resort to PA's and troll tactics. I honstly think you would have something intelligent to say otherwise. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

No. Because that's not the parallel. You know this, yet you keep going down this dead end road anyway. That's the parallel that was given. If you want to make an analogy, they have to comparable. To be comparable, all events must be parallel including the actions of the victim(s). HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

The key part, right here. The protesters did nothing that justified the NG's decision to fire, they gave the NG no excuse to fire. The protesters bear responsibility for what they did - but they did not get anyone shot. That was solely the fault of the National Guard. And to be perfectly honest - you should feel bad. Well, at least we agree on most of those points. Diff is, I consider their actions to be a direct cause of whatever happened afterwards (justified or not) and you don't. Here's some advice for you to consider through life: Whatever you do has consequences. It is wise to consider all consequences before doing something drastic. And, uh, why should I feel bad? I sympathise with those two innocent students who did nothing wrong, but I find it difficult to feel sorry for those who were actively and violently protesting and got shot. But that doesn't mean i think they deserved it. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Ummm - NO. Calling in the NG in the first place guaranteed a confrontation. Before that happened it was really no different than any of thousands of anti-war protests that went off without a massacre. The students were retreating from the Commons over Blanket Hill. The NG was advancing with fixed bayonets. By their own incompetence, the NG painted themselves in a corner in the practice field and panicked. Oh...so the protesters throwing rocks, disobeying a lawful order, breaking many other laws, etc. did not cause the violence that day....but bringing in the NG guaranteed a confrontation?? Talk about a double standard! HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

This counter argument would only hold water if you can establish that every person killed or injured at Kent was somebody who committed a violent, illegal act. (even then it is pretty questionable, but let's start there) Can you? The protesters are being compared as a group to women who have been raped. The protesters wanted trouble, they got more than they bargained for or deserved. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Hey, my friends and myself don't feel there wa anything honorable about what happened that day either, so we are in agreement. Where we disagree is your view that the protesters were innocent little cherubs who did nothing wrong. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

You surprise me, Bill. I know you are an intelligent person, yet you conyinue to stick with that analogy that just doesn't hold water. Please, please PLEASE tell me where and when a rape victim goes out on the town with the intent of causing a violent reaction in a man but wants him to stop just short of "going to far"...and does it all by the use of illegal and violent acts herself. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

I'm not going take your bait and get angry at you remarks about my friends. I have said it before, and I'm saying it again...they in NO WAY support or try to justify what the NG did that day. You, on the other hand, completely support the actions of the protesters. You think it is ok to resort to violence when you cna't get your way. You think it is ok to disobey a lawful police order and assault those charged with enforcing that order. There was no justification for the students to turn to violence, so why do you insist upon trying? Nice ASSumption and yet again.. you are wrong. Why the fuck do you think that I would condone the protestors actions.. but the NG opened up with deadly force on unarmed civilians.. I dont care who the fuck you are.. THAT WAS CRIMINAL far above and beyond what ANY of the protestors deserved.....except in the conservative values and minds of the day. I lived thru that time period and I remember well that day. The NG actions were endemic of the sickness that was afoot in this country at that time.... as evidenced by the justifications of you and others like Mr Ziegler...who comes to mind. Allright, slick, for the THIRD time....since you can't seem to grasp the concept....I in no way call the shootings justified. Clear enough? Good. So you can stop saying otherwise. It is VERY obvious you think the protesters were justified since you place 100% of the responsibility on the NG. I, too was around during that time but a bit younger than you. My friends WERE THERE. Those four students that died were classmates and fellow students of theirs. They have every reason to place all of the blame on the NG, even more reason than you have, yet they don't. THEY KNOW what the mindset was that day. THEY KNOW what transpired because THEY WERE THERE. So you will excuse me if i take their word for what happened over yours or Bill's or anyone else's. Sorry if you don't like it but those are the breaks. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Arguing with the mods is not very smart. It will almost always come back to bite you in the ass when you least expect it. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

"Norms" never justify violence regardless if you are a protester or a soldier ordered to disperse them. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

So you are unable to? That thread and the previous have too many personal attacks, bigotry and emotions. I am going to use diplomatic and open minded approach to this one. Feel free to make a link or repost your findngs. You started off on a bad foot last time assuming I was a radiophobe or such, one that makes such assumtions should not be taken seriously, as we all know what assumtions are the mother of... Answer this for everyone here: Why should any of us continue to respond to your same questions over and over and over? You always ask the same questions, we give the same answers. Go back and find them. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.