Belgian_Draft

Yes. Search the lengthy thread on 911 you started. All the answers you seek are contained within...most many times over. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Sorry to burst yer bubble, skippy, but the confrontation was the sole responsibility of the students. Everything was ok...tense, but ok....until they made the conscious decision to escalate their actions with the express purpose of forcing a violent reaction. For that there is no justification or excuse, the same as there is no justification or excuse for what the NG did. Don't feel bad about not understanding what happened that day, few if any actually do. The media painting the protesters as innocent school children has not helped. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

I'm not going take your bait and get angry at you remarks about my friends. I have said it before, and I'm saying it again...they in NO WAY support or try to justify what the NG did that day. You, on the other hand, completely support the actions of the protesters. You think it is ok to resort to violence when you cna't get your way. You think it is ok to disobey a lawful police order and assault those charged with enforcing that order. There was no justification for the students to turn to violence, so why do you insist upon trying? HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Sorry to dissappoint you, but I support the scientific method, not the half-assed backyard experiments shown in that video. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

She turns to sexual provocation to get a sexual reaction. Did the protesters tell the NG they wanted to be shot? Did the protesters bring the NG onto the campus? And the hypothetical rape victim gets the sexual reaction she wants from the guy, only it's a reaction far in excess of anything reasonable. No, the protesters did not ask to be shot. I never said they did. Yes, they did, in effect, ask that the NG be brought to campus. They were told that would happen if their protests were not kept under control. Protests got out of control, NG came in. Pretty simple cause and effect. Difference being, and this makes all the difference in the world and is why your analogy stinks, is that virtually no rape victim wants, let alone tries to get, their attacker into a violent state. That is exactly what the protesters wanted, tried to do, and accomplished. Using your logic, anybody can do anything they want and, if the reaction they get isn't what they expect, it wasn't their fault. Simple rules of life: Don't tug on Superman's cape, don't spit into the wind, don't pull the mask on the Lone Ranger, and don't throw rocks at scared nervous men with rifles. It's just plain stupid. Where you are wrong there is that the protesters willingly changed their protest TO a confrontation. No confrontation, no gunfire, nobody dies. The protesters bear responsibility for what happened right along with the NG. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Based on that........ how much do you think THEY and therefor you.. wish to justify the outcome of 4 dead in Ohio on the violent demonstrators. From Wiki Say what you will... I guess in your mind that just by being there that day... at the Kent State Massacre.... they needed killin. Sorry, honey, you're barking up...and trolling up...the wrong tree. If you read my posts you wiould know that your asserstions are completey off base. I have maintained that there was no excuse for what happened. So your theory that I feel it was "justified" or that they "needed killin' " is not only groundless, I take it as a personal insult. It's like me saying that just because you were in the military you support the torture of prisoners for any reason, including no reason at all. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

They are. By saying what you say about the the students, you claim that they set in motion an inevitable and immutable chain of events that leaves the NG no choice but to fire. You can't say they have no excuse for their actions when you're simultaneously saying they had no choice. But funnily enough, the protestors and the NG weren't colluding with each other. Your analogy falls down at the first steop there, since the protesters didn't cause any fatalities. You still misunderstand, even though I've explained where you're going wrong. The analogy is about strength of intended response. The provocatively dressed woman wants to incite a sexual response, but not one as strong as rape. She also has no reasonable grounds to think that she will get raped as a result. The protesters may have wanted a response from the NG, they certainly didn't want to get shot. You still fail to explain what violent actions rape victims do to provoke the attack. You also fail to understand that rape victims rarely are trying to get any kind of violent reaction from a man, but the protesters were determined to get just that. They wanted violence,they got violence, their actions led directly to four deaths. Without their protest turning violent there would have been no gunfire. Do I think the gunfire was excusable? Hell no! But the students actions were a main component of what happened that day. I guess we will just have disagree on this issue. I base my views on accounts from two close friends who were there that day. You can base yours on media accounts. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

No, she wasn't asking to be raped. But neither did she trun to violence to get a violent reaction in return, unlike the protesters. Lets say the same girl, doing the same things, grabs a guy by the crotch, shouts out so everyone can hear "I want you to fuck me", and then leads him to the bathroom. Was she then raped? If she changed he mind and said "no", then she was. But she sure as hell did a lot to provoke it. Comparing the protesters to a rape victim is still a very poor analogy since most rape victims do nothing to incite the act, while the protesters got the violent reaction they wanted only it was a violence far in excess of anything reasonable. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Ah yes...the old "If you aren't with us, then you are against us" ploy. Got it. (Did you learn that from W?) HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Therein lies the problem. The two statements are not mutually exclusive as you think they are. There were three major events that took place leading up to the shootings: The government sending ill trained troops with live ammo, the soldiers deciding to fire, and the students turning a peaceful protest into a violent one. If any of these three had not taken place the chain breaks and Kent State is just another school. Fact is, there was no excuse for any of the three to have happened and thus each holds responsibility for what happened that day. You can't hold somebody down while your buddy stabs them and then claim their death was not any of your fault. You can't get drunk, drive, cause a fatal accident, then say the death was not your fault because the other guy wasn't wearing a seatbelt. Now, do you care to tell me what violent and illegal act a rape victim does to incite her attacker? HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

I agree 100%. Bollocks. Absolute, unadulterated bollocks. You cannot unify this stance with your previous arguments. Why? Because you don't think the same way I do? I can understand your point of view and Bills, though I disagree on a couple points. Are you incapable of doing likewise? HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

You did see a couple posts back where rhys called us all idiots, didn't you? Are you gonna let him get away with that? He should at least get a warning. You handle that. I'm gonna go install my new hydrogen generator on my car. It runs on the car battery and splits water into hydrogen and oxygen, then burns them in the engine to produce more power! Free energy! How dare he call me an idiot. Harumph! Free energy? You selfish bastard. Do you realize how many industries you'll bankrupt and billions you'll put out of work? Oh and calling us all idiots is a general attack which is allowed, not a personal one. Well, I'm not an idiot. I find the truth and stick with it regardless of what facts may get in the way. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Well duh! It's FREE ENERGY, Bill! Of course people are going to buy them. I'm just glad I got mine before everybody finds out about them and the price shoots thought the roof. The same company is perfecting a device that scoops up surface energy (that stuff that is just laying around) and uses it to power a small electric motor. Pretty neat looking scoop, too! Looks just like a dust pan!

You did see a couple posts back where rhys called us all idiots, didn't you? Are you gonna let him get away with that? He should at least get a warning. You handle that. I'm gonna go install my new hydrogen generator on my car. It runs on the car battery and splits water into hydrogen and oxygen, then burns them in the engine to produce more power! Free energy! How dare he call me an idiot. Harumph! HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

I agree 100%. There was also no excuse for those soldiers to have been given live ammo. There was no excuse for the government to send poorly trained and semi-disciplined troops into a powder keg of a situation. AND there was no excuse for the protesters to turn to violence. Plenty of blame to go around. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Rhys, please pick a personality and stick with it. Gee whiz. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Well, he has a boot -- boots have soles, ergo, Bill has a soul... Wendy P. I'll bet his socks are made from the bladders of baby seals. What do you think his bike seat is made from? How about his car seat covers? Prolly stuffed with spotted owl feathers too! Uh OH! Douglass better be watching his back . . . Do you think his pillows are stuffed with Bald Eagle down? Probably are. He probably boils bunnies for entertainment. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Sorry, Bill, but you are dead wrong on the one point we disagree on. The protesters went there to create violence. They would not have it any other way. Their acts caused the reaction, as wrong as it may have been, from the NG. If I were a woman I would be insulted by your comparing a rape vistim to the protesters. THEY were acting in a manner that was not only illegal but was also intended to end with violence. A rape victim rarely, if ever, acts in a manner that is illegal to provoke the rape and her intentions sure as hell are not to incite violence. Do you think rape victims intend to incite a violent reaction from their attacker? Because that is what you are saying when you compare them to the Kent State protesters. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Well, he has a boot -- boots have soles, ergo, Bill has a soul... Wendy P. I'll bet his socks are made from the bladders of baby seals. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

None. It was the illegal activities of the protesters that led to those innocents deaths. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

What violent act does a rape victim perform to provoke her attacker? Does she throw rocks at him? I agree that an NG soldier should have a great deal of self restraint. The problem is, they didn't and that was the governments fault. By the same token, if you can't hold a peaceful demonstration and get your point across without turning to violence, you shouldn't be demonstrating. The FACT remains, Bill, that those kids went there that day with the intention of creating havoc. They were looking for trouble, they found it, and it led DIRECTLY to people getting killed. Not in a round-a-bout way, not kinda or sorta, DIRECTLY, just as sure as if they had pulled the trigger themselves. It is sad that people died, sadder still that some of them did nothing that day but stand in the wrong spot. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

Look at it this way: the woman wearing a short skirt may very well be wearing it to get a sexual reaction from men. She may even be wearing it to help her get laid. It doesn't mean she was asking for it when she gets raped. She's relying on the lgal and moral boundaries that exist in civilized society. The Kent State instigators may have been looking for a violent response from the NG, but I very much doubt they thought anyone was going to get killed. They probably wanted the NG to shove them, arrest them, tear gas them, or maybe even beat them up. I doubt that any of them were trying to solicit gunfire. Just like the woman may have been trying to solicit a sexual reaction, she clearly didn't intend to solicit a rape. We can argue motives all day long, but I don't think you can make a good argument that the protesters were in any way at fault when the NG started shooting into the crowd. Both sides share responsiblity for what happened, though most of it falls on the government. What happened was the end result of a chain of events. Remove any one of those "links" , the chain is broken, and most of the world never hears of Kent State. You throw rocks at a man with a gun and you don't deserve to get shot. You should expect not to get shot. But you have to consider the possibility you just might get shot. It is a very stupid thing to do and, like a lot of other situations, innocent people die when stupid people do stupid things. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

The intent and intelligence of the protestors is completely irrelevant - they did not make the National Guard start shooting, they did not get anyone killed. The men who fired (at people who were mostly hundreds of yards away) were the only people present who were responsible for getting anyone killed. To repeat myself, it's like saying women who dress provocatively are responsible for provoking their rapists. That is a very poor analogy. Most women who are raped do nothing to provoke their assailant and do not want a confrontation of any kind. The student protesters, on the other hand, did provoke their assailants and they wanted a confrontation. The two situations are in not similar in any way other than unwarranted violence. Do I think the NG was justified? Hell no. But no matter which way you spin the tale, the facts remain that the protester were actively and intentionally escalating the situation, the NG was ill trained and overly equipped, and innocent bystanders got killed. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

You killed a baby seal??? You have no soul! HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.

So maybe the lyrics really were, " 'scuse me while I kiss this guy"? HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit.