Robert99

Jo, You WILL deny it, you ALWAYS do, but just a few days ago you were making posts that you told the FBI in the late 1990s how the money got there. Remember your stories about Duane throwing a paper bag, small enough to put in the pocket of his wind breaker, into the Columbia upstream of Tena Bar in 1979? Then just a few months later the money was found. You subsequently told the FBI that is how the money got to Tena Bar. When it is convenient, you claim that the money was in that paper bag. Again when it is convenient, you claim that you don't know what was in the paper bag. You have got as much egg on your face as Marla, Blevins, Sailshaw, and anyone else on this thread who is pushing a specific Cooper candidate. Robert99

While I agree with Mr. Science's conclusion that the chance of Cooper landing in the River is VERY small, the explanation in the penultimate paragraph of his original post is distressing. I have consulted "Probability for Dummies", by Dr. Deborah Rumsey, which is my go-to book on the subject, and she definies (p. 9) probability as "the long-term chance that a certain outcome will occur from some random process". Precisely what is "random" in Mr. Science's original statement of the problem? The flight path and ground speeds are given and the time interval is arbitrarily specified. To my unenlightened mind, the only parameter that is truly random is the time of Cooper's jump. It is "random" because Mr. Science does not have control over it. Nevertheless, Mr. Science specifies a time or time period for the jump. Please advise me as to how "probability" can be applied to the problem as originally formulated. Robert99

Did Mr. Science discard his copy of Ovid Esbach early in his technical career? Also, did Mr. Science serve as a consultant to Marylin in developing the "solution" to the celebrated Monty Hall Problem? Mr. Science should make a full disclosure of his previous achievements. Robert99

From what I saw in the media, the mortal remains found of Steve Fosset were extremely limited. They found enough bone for a DNA test but that was all. "The following may not be suitable for sensitive adults or small children!" In instances where people, such as pilots, disappear in a wilderness area that has man eating animals, such as bears, cougars, etc. on the loose, then the searchers might check with the local wild life professionals to see if they have tagged any of those animals. If some of the wild life has been tagged, and their location is recorded frequently by GPS or other means, then the travels of the animals can be determined. And if an animal has been spending an unusual amount of time after the individuals disappearance at a new location, then that is the place for the searchers to start. This may be a morbid though but it could be effective. Robert99

Jo Stated: ====================== Robert 99 replied with: "Jo, Your irrefutable logic stumps me at times. You are saying that you did not see any money. And you are also saying that you were the first to explain to the FBI how the money got to Tena Bar. To repeat, you didn't see any money in Duane's paper bag or elsewhere. But you then explained to the FBI how the money later found at Tena Bar got there. Is this story consistent?" Jo States:

Jo, How many posts have you made to this thread stating that you did NOT know what was in the paper bag you allege that Duane threw into the Columbia River? If you remain true to your posting style, you will now probably deny ever making a post about a paper bag, deny that you posted the above quote, etc.. Robert99 NOPE! My stating he threw a paper bag into the water at the Red Lion - no I knew not what was in the bag. His going down to the water at a place I now know to be Tena's bar - whatever he had was small enough to fit in the jacket pocket of his windbreaker. I will quote my STATEMENT one MORE time for you. "This woman told the FBI about the places he stopped in 1979, but she had NO idea she was the first person to ever explain how the money got on Tena's bar. She had NO idea what she was doing - just telling what her husband told her and what her husband did on that trip." That statement does NOT say I saw him put money into the water or on the beach. Did I say I saw him put money in the water or on the beach? YOU pick at my words and you do this deliberately! My story unknowingly showed how the money got to Tena's bar - and something I witnessed. I was explaining that my story was the first story to EXPLAIN the money ending up on Tena's bar. Why don't YOU stop trying to pick my words apart and LISTEN to what YOU KNOW I am saying! I am not a professional writer just a woman recalling a trip made in 1979. I have gone to a great deal of expense that I could not really afford to do - to go back to WA with my own money in 2010 - to sort all of the crap out. JT had twisted and turned everything I said or tried to say. 2010 was the FIRST time in my life I ever drove on hilly or mountaineous terrain and the first time I was behind the wheel of a car in WA. If you are NOT aware - I made that trip while I knew I could still do it. Today - I would not be able to do it. I had to see some of this for myself and what I saw brought me home with even more convictions. I had been told I was here when I was there by parties who wanted to distort what I was telling for their own benefit - WHY? I will NEVER know, because I probably won't be around someday when the truths are know. Jo, Your irrefutable logic stumps me at times. You are saying that you did not see any money. And you are also saying that you were the first to explain to the FBI how the money got to Tena Bar. To repeat, you didn't see any money in Duane's paper bag or elsewhere. But you then explained to the FBI how the money later found at Tena Bar got there. Is this story consistent? And 2010 was the FIRST time that you EVER drove on hilly or mountainous terrain? Have you ever driven in Kentucky? Robert99

Blevins, Common sense would also tell you that the money wouldn't stay together if it went through a dredge. The money being found at Tena Bar creates questions only for those who hold to certain ideas that the find at this location doesn't support. To repeat for the jillionith time, the money find at Tena Bar is a separate, independent, and valid data point. You don't have to dream up a magic scenario for getting it there. Just believe your eyes! Robert99

Jo, How many posts have you made to this thread stating that you did NOT know what was in the paper bag you allege that Duane threw into the Columbia River? If you remain true to your posting style, you will now probably deny ever making a post about a paper bag, deny that you posted the above quote, etc.. Robert99

Jo, Are you talking about the channel between Caterpillar Island and the NW Lower River Road? Perhaps you should take some pictures and makes notes if you make another trip like this. Robert99

So what happened to those packing cards - did the FBI retrive them and if so did they check them for fingerprints? OR was Cooper as Gray has supposedly stated or theorized fingerprint phobic? Did Cooper put on gloves at any given time - no one has ever mentioned this that I am aware of? Jo, You don't have to put on gloves to conceal your fingerprints. Even in 1971, it was common knowledge that putting such things as model airplane glue on your finger tips, and allowing it to dry, would conceal the prints. Ask any kid who has built model airplanes. One of them has just written the above. Robert99

You 'categorically state'. But you didn't see it, did you? It was FAR above the altitude of any jetliner. And it made an instantaneous 90-degree turn. We had a very good look at it. We were up so high on Rainier that our view of the stars was much better than at sea level. I would compare its brightness and size in the sky as just slightly larger and brighter than the planet Venus. We watched it for more than two minutes. No big deal until it made that quicky right and headed north. I still haven't a clue what it was. Blevins, A few decades ago, I was in my flying machine and headed southwest on a dark night and just below a complete overcast and in an area with few ground lights. My eyes were fully "dark adapted" at the point where I flew out from under the overcast and a sky full of really bright lights came into view. One light in particular appeared to be descending and heading straight for me. I immediately flipped my landing light on and was prepared to take evasive action if necessary. Within about a minute, I realized that whatever I was looking at wasn't a problem for me so I turned the landing light off. And about an hour or two later, the planet Venus disappeared over the horizon in the west. End of problem. Whatever you were looking at was not outside the atmosphere. Can you name a single space craft that can make a turn like you described? And it was probably in the atmosphere and at a much lower altitude that your guess. I don't know what you were looking at but maybe the people at Rachel, Nevada could give you some ideas, if they haven't already. Robert99

POST A MAP! 99.99% DONT HAVE THE FAINTEST IDEA WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT ! ? Also, if Lake River or Vancouver Lake figures into this explanation, please explain how the money got across the levee that NW Lower River Road is built upon. The purpose of that levee was to keep the Columbia River water on the west side of the road/levee and separate from the Lake River and Vancouver Lake on the east side. Robert99 Not to mention.. Lake River in 1971 was pretty much a ditch with no flow.. it was not till the huge project much much later that forced water INTO Vancouver Lake... so it was not quite as much of a stinking cesspool that it was for so many decades. Amazon, You are no doubt referring to the Flushing Channel construction. Do you know the date when the channel between Caterpillar Island and the NW Lower River Road was dredged so that the flow from the Columbia passed completely through? Kadow's Caterpillar Island Marina is now located in that channel and some of the boats in that Marina seem to require water several feet deep. On the printed US topographical charts, that channel is still listed as a mud flat. Robert99

READ DA THREAD! YOU HAVE OPINIONS WITHOUT INFO ? YOU SAW UFO'S ? I gave info, if you had bothered to read it. Geoff Gray, who was allowed access to the original FBI individual witness reports, and quotes from them in his book. I have read quite a bit of the thread. Do you have even a REMOTE idea of how much material is on this thread? If it were an 8.5x11 Word doc, it would take up more than 15,000 pages in print form. And I'm not the only one around here who ventures opinions. Who are you? The Opinion Monitor? (*laughs*) Actually, you remind me more of a school Hall Monitor, asking people for their passes. Sorry, the dog ate it. I don't doubt that Cooper read the packing cards. Just wondered if anyone actually saw him DO it. Nothing is certain without witnesses or evidence. And yeah...(again)...I saw a UFO once with one other witness. Still can't explain it. Blevins, I don't know what you were looking at but I strongly suspect that it wasn't 20 miles high. And I can categorially state that it didn't make a turn as abrupt as you describe. Perhaps you have heard the saying, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." In the same sense, anything flying in the Earth's atmosphere or its immediate vicinity must comply with Earth physics. It doesn't have a choice. Also, there is no such thing as little green men from Mars. Mars has been inspected for the last several decades and if there was meaningful life there some evidence of it would have surely been noticed by now. On the general subject of "Flying Saucers", which were first mentioned in Washington State about 1947, a few years ago a TV cable channel had a scientific program that reviewed the original sightings of those things. The conclusion was that the original sightings could not have happened as claimed. The moral of the above is that BS, whether about flyings saucers or D. B. Cooper, can take on a lengthy life of its own. Robert99

Smokin99, In 1971 the repack period for emergency civilian parachutes was 90 days (ever 3 months). So the packing card recently shown on this thread indicated that the parachute had not been packed in more than 180 days and was illegal. But I doubt that was the card for the back chute Cooper took with him. In any event, even if the parachute was illegal from a packing period viewpoint, that is not an indication that the parachute would not function normally. At the present time (2012), the repack period for emergency civilian parachutes is 180 days (ever 6 months). Tosaw's book indicates that Tina saw Cooper check the packing card for the parachute he used. Robert99

POST A MAP! 99.99% DONT HAVE THE FAINTEST IDEA WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT ! ? Also, if Lake River or Vancouver Lake figures into this explanation, please explain how the money got across the levee that NW Lower River Road is built upon. The purpose of that levee was to keep the Columbia River water on the west side of the road/levee and separate from the Lake River and Vancouver Lake on the east side. Robert99

Same page, this excerpt somewhat interesting: This could denote someone who knew where stuff was on an NWA flight, but not necessarily on a smaller 727. Knows where the O-2 is, but not how to open the stairs. Perhaps from experience on one of the larger overseas-route jets? Just saying.

Blevins, Please elaborate on the above. What is the source of your data for what the hijacker would be thinking and considering? Robert99

Even as old and decrepit as I am.. I could do that jump and survive.. given the same gear. AND the same conditions. THOUSANDS of US Army Air Corp personnel saved their lives by bailing from their shot up aircraft .. many of them in far worse weather with aircraft far harder to get out of. Most of them ended up as POW's. agreed, let me ask this, how would you have done the jump? and what would you have done with the "X" chute? I would go down the stairs so I could look down and forward looking for any light coming up thru the clouds..to give me an idea of the "spot". But then again I only have about 30 or so night jumps I have jumped a few times with some "industrial haze" and if there is light below.. it lights up the "industrial haze" REAL nice The X reserve would be tossed I know what a good reserve looks like.. I have a similar rig to what he jumped and have at least 3 belly warts out in the loft. Would you have pulled the rip cord while still on the stairs? Robert99

Blevins, You know how I hate trivial questions, but please indulge me in this matter. Assuming Cooper weighed 180 pounds, the money and its bag weighed 25 pounds, and the parachutes weighed 25 pounds, the total load in the jump would be 230 pounds. In addition, the airliner was doing almost exactly 225 MPH True Air Speed. First question, do you know the rated load and speed of the back pack that Cooper took? Second question, do you know the rated load and speed of the special back pack that Felix Baumgarter used during his recent jump? I have no personal knowledge of a military type personnel parachute rated at more than 225 MPH although I have heard of some rated at that speed. I have no information on the design suspended loads. I have some knowledge of zero-zero parachute systems since I have spent a lot of time working on vertical take-off and landing aircraft (this is something other than standard helicopters). Some of these parachute systems are rated at 0 to 600 MPH at ground level. I have seen films of these systems getting their job done under those conditions or close to it. But I don't remember the design specifications for these chutes. Round civilian emergency parachutes are rated as "low speed", 150 MPH (Knots?), and "high speed", 160 MPH (Knots?). Felix Baumgartner's special square parachute was listed as being "high speed" with a rating of 160 MPH (Knots?). It is possible that I have the MPH and Knots reversed in the above two paragraphs. 377 has previously commented on the strength of some military parachute canopies. However, pulling the rip cord on the stairs at 225 MPH may be a bit to much in my opinion. Robert99

Jo, You do understand that the Columbia River runs almost straight north and south at the Fazio property don't you? "Downstream" is to the north and "upstream" is to the south. The NW Lower River Road runs north and south also. Presumably, you are referring to the parking lot by the sand operation which is south of the driveway to the house. Robert99

No problem, a warm welcome to the forum! I jumped from a DC 9 jet from 14,000 ft. You do get a fwd throw but your forward velocity bleeds off rapidly due to body drag. I freefell to 3000 ft. By the time I was at 10,000 feet it looked like I was falling straight down. Forward throw wont be much of a factor in the Cooper jump. I watched later DC 9 jumps from the ground. I'd make a rough guess that jumpers forward throw after exit was less than 1000 yards. Just a very rough guess. It can be calculated if you want exact numbers. I was told that on my jump we were doing 180 knots. 377 The hijacked aircraft was actually doing about 225 MPH True Airspeed when Cooper jumped. The maximum "forward throw" would be if Cooper was a no pull. In that case, he would be on the ground about 40 seconds after jumping. My guess is that 377's estimate of 1000 yards is a good one. The calculation of the trajectories of falling bodies is not as simple as I (for one) would hope. There is very little information in the public technical literature on the subject. I strongly suspect that there is a lot more information in restricted sources and especially those that deal with things that go boom at the end of their flight. Robert99

Let me get my two cents in here. I made it a point to visit the Tena Bar, Vancouver, and Portland areas for several days in mid-November 2009. It rained off and on all day ever day and the temperature stayed in the mid-40s range around the clock. This was almost identical to the weather on the hijacking date (November 24, 1971) as well as what Amazon is now describing. Lake River flows into the Columbia about 15 or 20 miles downstream of Tena Bar. The vertical drop from the Tena Bar and Vancouver Lake area to that point is about one foot. The "normal" (or typical) Columbia River level at Tena Bar is from 5 to 7 feet and the daily tidal fluctuation is less than 2 feet. The above means that the Columbia River from the Portland/Vancouver area has a vertical drop of only about one foot for ever 15 to 20 miles downstream. By comparison, the Mississippi River has an average of about a one foot vertical drop per mile downstream over its entire length from Minneapolis to the point where it disappears into the Gulf of Mexico. So generally speaking, the Columbia River is not a raging torrent from the Tena Bar area to the Pacific Ocean. Robert99

Jo, Contrary to your statement, the discovery of Cooper would eliminate one very unlikely scenario. And that is your baseless claim that Duane Weber was Cooper. Robert99

Blevins, You haven't explained anything. Have you seen any UFO's lately? Robert99

Blevins, Everything in your post about theories related to Tena Bar is incomprehensible to me since I don't see any logic anywhere. But just out of morbid curiosity, how would knowing the identity of the hijacker cause ANYTHING regarding Tena Bar to fall into place? Robert99