Robert99

Blevins, KC did NOT drop out of high school just six days before his scheduled graduation. He apparently signed up for the program that Smokin describes six days before graduation. That program required that he be a high school graduate. What are you talking about when you write "only 80 passed"? Passed what? Robert99

From Gray's article: [Kenny trained with the 11th Airborne Division, the Angels, which had been sent to the Pacific. But he never saw combat. When he was finally deployed, on August 16, 1945, his discharge papers show, the war was over. He ended up in Japan, joining the initial occupation forces. He ran the mail room and made jumps on the side for extra money. “Dear Folks,” Kenny wrote home in one letter dated August 4, 1946, from Sendai. “I went to church this morning. I went last Sunday also. I had more reason to go last Sunday, as after ten months of hibernation, I once again donned a chute and reserve and entered a C-46. I cringed a good deal, but I managed once again to pitch myself into the blast. That jump was worth $150. The nicest thing about the whole affair was that I never had time to worry about it … Don’t get the idea that I didn’t get that certain stomackless [sic] feeling, because I did.” After that jump, he vacationed in Namazu, a fishing village south of Tokyo. “I spent most of my time up on the roof during the day; nights I usually lounged in a beach chair down by the water’s edge,” he wrote. “They had a group of Hawaiian guitar players down there. With the music, the breeze off the Ocean, and the waves crashing the shore, I felt like a millionaire enjoying his millions.” ] While the shooting started tapering off about a week after the dropping of the second atomic bomb on August 9th, the September 15th date is when the surrender documents were signed on the USS Missouri. Since KC was still on active duty more than 10 months after the formal surrender, he may have extended his service time on a voluntary basis. The $150 he mentions for that jump may be several months worth of jump pay. Robert99

I provided Duane's Army number to the thread and to the FBI so explain to me what you mean by the above statement. ] Jo, You need to go back to the information sources that were discussed then. I think the information can also be found on Wikipedia. But to make a long story short, draftees and volunteers had a different system of serial numbers. Also, the sources that were used previously had a breakdown as to the time frame that various numbers were used. So the service number indicated if it belonged to a draftee (Army of the United States) or a volunteer (Regular Army). Also, the draftee service numbers, at least those used during the Korean War, indicated the area of the United States in which the individual lived prior to entering the Army. There is quite a bit of information contained in just the service numbers themselves. But there are no "codes" whatsoever in those numbers. Robert99

Assuming that KC did enroll in this program and that the dates given above, as well as those given previously by Blevins, are accurate, then this is the way the dates would work out. 1. KC born on Sunday, October 16, 1926. 2. Started 1st grade in late summer of 1932 just before 6th birthday. 3. Took test for the program on Wednesday, March 15, 1944. 4. Apparently signed up for the program on Thursday, May 25, 1944. 5. Graduated from High School on Wednesday, May 31, 1944. 6. Spent most of the slightly more than 28 weeks until his Army enlistment on Monday, December 18, 1944 at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas taking academic courses. This was probably a full time, 40+ hours a week program, that provided KC with the equivalent of about one year of college. 7. From the information that Smokin provides, KC was a volunteer (as opposed to being a draftee) based on his serial number. Remember our long winded discussion a few months ago about Duane Weber's Army serial number or lack thereof. 8. In any event, KC was obligated to spend six months on active duty after the end of the War, which presumably means the Japanese surrender on September 15, 1945. So KC would be obligated to serve until March 15, 1946. We will have to see what additional information Blevins can come up with and how it all fits together. Robert99

Blevins, Has it occurred to you that other people on this thread feel the same way? You are free to draw your own conclusions as to what that means. Robert99

EDIT: Don't have the ID card. I looked. Skipp sent a portion of his discharge papers, which have his right thumbprint on them. But it's only a partial shot of the document, mostly sent to me because of the thumbprint. I will have to ask Porteous to send a copy of the entire document. Blevins, Where did you, or Porteous, get the above information? The sequence of those assignments doesn't make sense. Typically, after being sworn in, enlistees would spend a week or two at an Army post, Fort Snelling in this instance, taking various mental examinations, and being issued their uniform and personal clothing. After that, they would immediately be moved to another unit at Fort Snelling, or another Army post, for basic training. Instead, you have KC undergoing 18 weeks of studying "Advanced Algebra" and "Trigonometry" at Brookings, SD. What was the purpose of this specific training? Having gotten up to speed in algebra and trigonometry, KC then decides to become a paratrooper. However, before that can come to pass, he is assigned to Fort Leavenworth, KS for "rigorous physical training". Then about six months after he entered the Army, KC starts basic training, which included rifle training, at Camp Hood, Texas. Based on my personal experience and that of a number of people I know, basic training involved lots and lots of rigorous physical training and rifle training plus training with machine guns, grenades, rocket launchers, hand to hand combat, bayonet practice, and a number of other fun things that I have probably forgotten. So about eight months after he entered the Army, KC finally makes it to Fort Benning, GA for paratrooper training. Assuming he made it through that training, he would have had about nine months military service upon completion of paratrooper training. Now just exactly what did he do with that training during the remainder of his military service? What was his military job? What units did he serve with? When did he get out of the military? If you have any answers to the above, please post them here. Robert99

Blevins surely knows the military do NOT keep logs. Tracing his rank, grade, locations and recognitions will be readily available, but that is about all. Interesting. My 21 years of actual service seems to match Blevins version of accountability formations and reports better than the others. Maybe things changed, but daily reports are kept today, and have been since I joined. Even My MACVSOG Uncle says it was this way when he served, so that goes back to '62 for the Army. The report was basic, "110 assigned, 110 Present" If there was a difference then that would be annotated. "110 assigned, 105 Present. 2 Sick Bay, 2 TDY, 1 Awol" Then those NAMES would be listed "Sick Bay-Jones, Smith. TDY- Martin, Jones, A. AWOL-Johnson since 12 May 71" Maybe the Folks who don't remember this are not putting the "Morning Report" and Morning Formation together. Matt Matt and Guru, I prepared more than 500 Morning Reports for my independent unit during my relatively brief military experience. My reports included entries for everything from "Duty to AWOL eff XXXX" to "Duty to death eff XXXX - LD yes" and every other type of entry. Those reports do NOT give a detailed hour-by-hour accounting of each individual in the unit. It was not their purpose to do that. The Morning Report was concerned with the official status of each individual that was assigned, attached, or whatever, to the unit making the Morning Report. As such, the Morning Report was a part of the permanent military records that were retained by the Department of the Army according to the requirements of their files retention program. In the case of Gossett, even if he was involved in a morning formation, there may not be a record of that in any report or file. Other than the Morning Report information, the absence of a record on what Gossett was doing on November 24, 1971 doesn't mean anything in itself. You are not going to find an entry for Gossett that says anything like "Absent in Portland, Oregon to hijack an airliner". Robert99

Blevins, You seem to be under the impression that a comprehensive "log" of the daily activities and locations of active duty military personnel is maintained. As a paper shuffler during my military service, I can categorically state that no such log was maintained in my time and I have never heard of one being maintained in the first place. During normal duty hours (which never involved a "log" being kept), the only thing you needed to do was your job and stay out of trouble. Outside normal duty hours, as a general rule, you could come and go on-base or off-base at will except during exceptional circumstances. As a Senior NCO, Gossett could well do just about whatever he pleased. But it is VERY unlikely that any record such as a "log" would have been kept of his times and locations. So the absence of a record stating that Gossett was seated at his desk at 8:00 PM on November 24, 1971 doesn't mean anything. Nothing in the above should give anyone the impression that Gossett was Cooper, and I don't believe he was in the first place. Robert99

Blevins, Rather than repeat your whole post, let me cite some of your numbers and see where that leads. You state that the typical salary for a purser was about $512 per month. You indicate that KC worked 160 hours per month for that salary. You also state that the value of the money taken in the hijacking would now be 5 times higher due, presumably, to inflation alone. First, it is not very likely that KC worked 160 hours per month for NWA. I personally don't know the details for the cabin personnel, but the cockpit crew were paid to fly (loggable flight time) about 70 to 80 hours per month. This did not include the time they spent in preparing for a flight, time on the ground between different legs of the same flight, etc. Nevertheless, and following FAA regulations, that flight time could be achieved in about a 10 to 12 day period with a rest day or two thrown in there. In the 1970s, the FAA had regulations about total flying time (repeat, off the ground) per day and (maybe) per week. Those regulations have been changed in the past few years. So the cockpit crew, and probably the cabin crew, could fulfill their job obligations to NWA in about 10 working days. That leaves about 20 or 21 days that they would have free from NWA each month. KC, was probably a very senior purser at NWA during the time in question and probably earned a bit more money due to both seniority and the international routes that he flew. So let's assume he earned $600 per month and did that in just 10 work days. That is $7200 per year from NWA and he still has almost three weeks to earn money from other sources. Multiplying the above by the factor of 5, indicates that in today's dollars KC had an income of about $36,000 per year from NWA and probably something in the area of $50,000 per year when outside income is included. As Jo Weber has pointed out this evening, if KC invested in real estate, and he apparently did, he could have benefited from the real estate inflation boom of the 1960 and 1970s. While the above doesn't explain where his non-NWA income, or the coins, came from, it does suggest that a hijacking is not necessairly needed to build up the nest egg that he left. Personally, I consider your theory about the hijacking being the source of his money as being very weak. Robert99

No kidding? Well...that was probably because after twenty years with NWA, both on Schmoo and in Seattle, he was still only taking home about five hundred a month, and that's when they weren't out on strike. Attached: picture of something he did the year before the hijacking to help make ends meet. The woman in the picture is Margaret Geestman. Sometimes a picture really DOES speak a thousand words. HOW many time does one have to inform you that 500 per month was pretty good money even in 1973 when I had 2 girls I was raising with little to NO help at times from their father. You just do NOT get it. You did NOT live and work in the early 70's - I did! And don't forget that interest paid on savings was somewhat more reasonable in the early 1970s than it is today. The 1970s were a period when the interest rates on real estate mortgages, as well as prices, started a steep climb. So quite a bit of money could be, and was, made in that era in dealing with real estate. Robert99

Donald Trump?

Blevins, a condensed version of some of your post is above. You also make quite a few assumptions in your post. Despite your claim that KC was unable to pay the rent and buy food, he nevertheless did pay the rent, buy food, and build up a rather nice nest egg. It is not unusual for airline crews, both cockpit and cabin, to not see the same group of fellow employees regularly. Cabin and cockpit crews can be based in different cities. And the personnel that are based in a specific city may not even live in that city or anywhere nearby. I know of cases where the a crew member commuted from one coast to another to get from his residence to his base. As for KC's savings, where did you look? At his neighborhood branch of Bank X? I haven't seen a single mention in your writings of KC working on anything other than international routes for NWA. As an airline flight crew member, KC had expedited entrance and exits from foreign countries as well as the USA. He could have had a bank account as well a girlfriend/boyfriend/whatever in any of those countries without attracting any particular attention. Helen Jones seems to be "certain" in the same sense as you and Jo Weber are "certain" of your favorite Cooper candidates. Overall, you are just trying to apply your logic, or whatever, to insist that KC had to follow the same logic. That is not a good way to make a case for anything. Robert99

No kidding? Well...that was probably because after twenty years with NWA, both on Schmoo and in Seattle, he was still only taking home about five hundred a month, and that's when they weren't out on strike. Attached: picture of something he did the year before the hijacking to help make ends meet. The woman in the picture is Margaret Geestman. Sometimes a picture really DOES speak a thousand words. Blevins, Georger has written words of wisdom in his post that you are replying to. The airline business was very unstable in the 1960s and 1970s. There were long seasonal layoffs for those in both the cockpit and cabin crews that had low seniority numbers. Additionally, both the cockpit and cabin crews could get their maximum allowable flying hours over with in a couple of weeks as a matter of routine. That leaves two weeks or more that they would have free. Even the most senior captain on the airline probably had a second job (a non-flying one probably) or some additional income activity going for him. That is just the way things operated in that day and age. So KC and probably everyone he flew with were basically working two or more jobs. And maybe some of them even managed to save a few dollars along the way. KC doesn't look like he is "working" or doing something he normally does in that picture. Actually, he looks like he is having fun. Robert99

the list was basically an example of "out of control" the aft stair lite came on right around McChord AFB which was 19 KM out of Seattle, V23 runs right by it. this was 7 minutes into the flight. 7:40 they reached 7000' 14 KM out SEA 7:43 they were 19 Km out of SEA and began 30 degree flaps I believe the "KM"s you use above should be "NM"s. They are Nautical Miles rather than Kilometers. Robert99

If he was fixated on the Sperry and not watching the other instruments...and he was unfamiliar with it...then how can you NOT blame that as a major cause? See 'Cab4' attachment below. The CAB thought it was a major cause, since the other instruments would be fluctuating. My point is that the Sperry instrument was apparently functioning normally but that the pilot didn't know how to use it. The fact that the pilot didn't know how to use the instrument was his own fault and not the instruments. Is lack of appropriate training the instruments fault? When you burn the toast, do you blame the toaster or the one doing the toasting? Actually, I wouldn't call this a "human factors" problem either, but a case could be made for that since the Sperry reportedly displayed information in a manner that was directly opposite of that used by previous artifical horizons. Robert99

Basically put, there are too many causes of the accident to list here. But I don't think you can blame the Sperry artifical horizon simply because the pilot didn't have any experience with it. In today's phrasing, this would be described as a "controlled [more or less controlled, anyway] flight into the terrain". Fifty feet per second is 3000 feet per minute that the aircraft was descending at impact. That is a high rate of descent for that type of aircraft. Unless the pilot reduced engine power, the airspeed would be increasing rapidly, the noise level going up real fast, etc.. The pilot simply lost "spatial orientation" [a term Farflung mentions in an earlier post]. He apparently fixated on the artifical horizon and neglected to cross-check his other instruments. The end result was that he didn't know what the airplane was doing. It doesn't make any difference if they could not see the ground, lights on the ground, or anything at all outside the aircraft. If you are going to fly on instruments then the ones you need to use are the ones on the instrument panel. Robert99

Well, I am not going to argue with someone that was NOT here to see it. I was NOT the only complaint and I was NOT the only one to feel it was TOO close. I do NOT know what "model" it was and that is not relevant. The fact that it WAS TOO low is. I could see the panels - and the one that came in too low a few yrs ago did cause turblence to the tree tops. It was NOT as low this time as it was several yrs ago. Right now I have better thing to do than argue with a person who was NOT here. Jo...............Dear...................chillax USAF SO has it covered...I have been on those birds out of AF 9.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C-130_Hercules_crashes Jo, Take Amazon's advice and relax. Just yesterday you were claiming that you could see the rivets in the airframe. Now you are claiming you could see the "panels". I don't know what you consider a "panel" to be, but in real life it is much larger than a rivet. Did you back away from the aircraft? Check out all the C-130 crashes at the link that Amazon provides. Despite the high attrition rates, there are at least 100 older C-130s in storage at Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson. So we are not going to run out of C-130s in the next week or so. Robert99

This plainly states that the pilot did not have an instrument rating in the first place. Robert99

Blevins, Your explanation of the reason(s) for the Holly plane crash won't fly. Using the numbers and other information you give, the pilot was relatively inexperienced in instrument flying. However, you need to demonstrate to an FAA examiner that you can fly on instruments before you get the rating. The pilot apparently had not received an appropriate weather briefing and may not have had adequate instrumentation in the aircraft. You do not state when his last flight under instrument flying conditions was made. But don't blame it on the artifical horizon which is, or was, a secondary instrument for instrument flying. The primary instrument for telling the pilot if he was in level flight or climbing or descending was the altimeter. The rate-of-climb instrument serves as a back-up to the altimeter in that respect. The altimeter and rate-of-climb indicator operate off the aircraft's static pressure port. The airspeed also uses the static pressure port as well as the pitot pressure port. These two pressure ports must be keep clear of ice, rain, and other obstructions in order to operate correctly. Therefore, the aircraft in question would need a pitot heater to be realistically considered equipped for instrument flying. If the static pressure port is not heated and there in no other installed alternate static port, then one of the pressure instruments, preferably the rate-of-climb indicator, can become an emergency static port by breaking the glass in the instrument. Presumably, the above information would have been part of the pilot's training for instrument flight. If there was anything wrong with the pressure ports or system, the pilot should have known it by the time he retracted the landing gear. He could have then made a simple visual circle of the airport and landed. In any event, even if it was not working properly, the artifical horizon was not responsible for this accident. The probable cause(s) all comes down to "pilot error" of one kind or another. Robert99

Jo, YOU need to start reading the posts on the thread before dashing off a reply. Matt told you in plain English that his friend at Elgin said that the C-130s there were the "J" model, which were manufactured within just the past few years. You only need to worry about the airplane if the propellers aren't turning. And you did not see the rivets on the aircraft unless you have much better vision than the renowned Jane, or whatever her name is, claims she has. Also, you need to learn a bit about how to estimate altitude and to learn the difference between the downwash from an aircraft and a normal slightly breezy afternoon from normal causes. Robert99

Jo, All airlines had requirements for their stewardresses but not always the ones you listed. There was indeed carry on luggage in 1971 and that included luggage specifically designed to fit under the seats. If sewardresses couldn't reach the overhead bins, they could get four or more male volunteers to assist them in less than two seconds. I think the stews received special training from their mothers for situations like that. Robert99

In examining the photo of the door and KC, repeat door and KC, in Farflung's attachment, it should be noted that the picture has been cropped at the top and rotated slightly clockwise. Using the horizontal fixture outside the door as a reference, it is obvious that KC's bald head is exactly at the same level as the bottom of the top door hinge. The bottom of the top hinge on my front entrance door is exactly 68 inches (or 5 feet, 8 inches) above the floor. While my door is somewhat wider than the door in the photo, the vertical dimensions are probably very close since most doors in this day and age are "pre-hung" at the factory. Since KC is wearing shoes, probably with at least a one-half inch heel, he would seem to be less than 5 feet, 8 inches, in his bare feet. So KC may have exaggerated UPWARDS when the drivers license people asked him his height. Presumably he didn't have any reason to understate his height and, also presumably, the license people would have noticed if his claimed height was 4 inches less than what they were seeing. Also, the license people could have check his claimed eye color in a fraction of a second. And they probably did. Robert99

Rataczak was correct in saying that, when in flight, the stairs would drop only partially down when the release handle was turned. As humans or cargo were placed on the stairs, the stairs would lower further and then return to their partially down position when the loads were removed. It has been discussed on this thread before (as has probably everything on the earth and in the universe), but this only partially opening matter reveals a number of possibilities and probabilities. The video of the paratroopers jumping down the stairs of 727s in southeast Asia indicates that there was no movement of the stairs between jumpers. It doesn't take much of a jump to realize that those stairs were locked down. And there is no indication that the stairs ever locked down during any hijacker's jump or during the FBI tests. And it doesn't take much of an additional jump to understand that the southeast Asia 727s had rear stairs that were deliberately modified so that they could be lowered and locked down. This would require an electric motor in the stair area to do the lowering and a suitable control panel for the modified stairs. This would explain why Cooper was not familiar with the rear stair lowering procedure and control panel on the NWA aircraft since he had probably never seen one like it before. However, Cooper did possess more information about 727 operations with the stairs down, or partially down, than the hijacked flight crew. Cooper knew that the 727 could take off with the rear stairs "unlocked", this doesn't mean that they were fully down and locked, and that he could parachute from those stairs. Coupled with the aircraft configuration Cooper specified, this means that Cooper probably had first hand information about the capabilities of the 727s used in southeast Asia. But it doesn't mean that Cooper himself wa an experienced parachutist. Robert99

WELL Mr. High and Mighty. Seems like Georger has already explained what I tried to tell you. Cook and Tosaw were friends. I need to read the thread before I post to someone like you. You do not understand the simplest of concepts...and you do not have a sense of humor - WHAT a grump! I have dial-up and I answer the post as I read them. I do not read the post to the end and then go back to make replies. Most of the information about the Balloon Bombs was censored and little made it to the papers until much later. Cook did NOT use his name and he according to an email sent to me made 2 posts. YES, I have had lots of emails from Cook! Not recently though. He likes puppets - he used many of us to post what he wanted to be known - that made us puppets and why I refer to Cook as the Puppet Master. I was not the only puppet. You only undermine yourself - not me. If the code as given to a newspaper is NON - EXISTENT then you PROVE IT! What is wrong you couldn't figure out the code? Well, if I have been set-up with the CODE - who would have a purpose in doing that? WHY would someone do that? How could they possibly know I could unravel the numbers? I didn't make the damn code up! Jo, Just forget about the balloon bombs. Even when they were flying directly over our heads, my 4th and 5th grade classmates and I didn't get excited about them. We could see them, we were informed about them by the government, and they were common knowledge. And there was no panic whatsoever. You want me to prove that the "codes" were non-existent. In other words, you want me to prove a negative. I'll do that just as soon as I get my perpetual motion machine perfected. Robert99