Robert99

R2 was the controller for the hijacked airliner and not one of the PDX controllers. This is true even if R2 and the PDX controllers were located in the same room in the Portland tower building. Since the airliner was neither taking off from or landing at PDX, the approach controller and departure controller, plus the tower controller, were not involved with the hijacked flight. Robert99

I understand that Caterpillar Island and the other nearby wooded areas were checked visually. But Caterpillar Island in particular is reported to have heavy undergrowth that makes it very difficult to check. I have not seen any mention of metal detectors being used at Tena Bar by the FBI. Robert99 I guess I was wrong, well seems to be the next move I would say? someone could get permission I'm sure and go out there and check, couldn't hurt? GPR would be nice ( Ground Penetrating Radar) Would you and others on this list be interested in forming a group to actually search the Tena Bar area with metal detectors and Ground Penetrating Radar? After narrowing down all the possibilities, the total area to be searched would probably be less than one-half of a square mile. But several days would probably be required to do a thorough search. We would need permissions from the Fazio family and other property owners in that area. We would also need to weed out media types and/or anyone who just wanted to show up for a few minutes to get their picture taken and then go home and write a book or column. The ability to use the electronic equipment, knowledge as to how to use a shovel, and a willingness to sweat are essential. Any takers? Robert99

EXCEPT: You can't believe what is written because the information being generated was from the perpetrators. The deception is in the telling, Dr. Watson, not in the analysis. You have to work backwards from Janet and assume NOTHING. You are SO wrong it is humorous! Knoss, I continue to be amazed at how well you can type with your straight jacket on. Congratulations! Robert99

I understand that Caterpillar Island and the other nearby wooded areas were checked visually. But Caterpillar Island in particular is reported to have heavy undergrowth that makes it very difficult to check. I have not seen any mention of metal detectors being used at Tena Bar by the FBI. Robert99

How do you explain Tom Kaye's tests on the money that show (he believes) the money did not arrive by water? He's quoted as saying he thinks it arrived by 'non-natural means'. His Citizen Sleuths team does not disagree with this assessment. This also implies human hand involvement. And this: Tena Bar is a long way off the known flight path. Even I know that. Proof of this will be required. Blevins, I do basically agree with Tom Kaye if he is saying that the money did not travel by water very far (maybe a few hundred feet). Blevins, please define your term "known flight path" and who says what is the "known flight path". Robert99

I started this project over a month ago thinking it would be pretty easy to recreate, Bzzz wrong, after reading two different transcripts one can go bonkers pretty quick, I'm trying my best to use the best information available in order to make this work, Hominid has been my Co-Pilot so to speak guiding and helping out with this with the knowledge he has. I would like to hear everyone's views about the flight path be it weather or anything to do with the path, you guys hold more information than I have and any help would be appreciated. If nothing is found and everything checks out, that's ok too we will now know this to be the real flight path and I learned a hell of a lot about flying a 727 and the Cooper flight path itself. I have along with Hominid put a lot of time into this making sure all avenues are checked, I would like more input from Robert99 if he would be so kind to jump aboard. Okay, just remember you asked for it. But here is the ONE TRUE FLIGHT PATH in all its gory details. I think there is general agreement that after taking off to the south from SEATAC the airliner proceeded on V-23 directly to the area of the Malay/Mayfield Intersection. The airliner was level at 10,000 feet several miles north of this intersection. I am writing this post from memory but if you want my exact numbers, you can find them on Sluggo's web page. Opinions differ on the route after the Malay Intersection. The Seattle ATC sector controller for that area swears that the airliner flew straight down the centerline of V-23. But he was also busy at the same time trying to set up an inteception of the airliner with some USAF aircraft. So he wasn't looking at his radar display all the time. While on the ground in Seattle, the airliner crew was informed that the Chief FAA Psychologist in Washington, DC was predicting that Cooper would take a hostage with him when he jumped and that he would blow the aircraft up as he was leaving it. In view of that cheering thought, Rataczak discussed flying over the Pacific Ocean so that if the aircraft was blown up the debris would not harm anyone on land. The NWA powers that be ruled that out. However, it is beyond my comprehension to think that Rataczak would then fly directly over the city of Portland. The finding of the money at Tena Bar in 1980 is, in my opinion, an extremely important clue as to the flight path. If you have visited that area (and I made it a point to do so in November 2009), you probably noticed that the NW Lower River Road is built on top of a levee. This levee effectively eliminates the possibility of the money arriving at Tena Bar from an easterly direction. A careful study of aerial photographs and topographic charts leads me to believe that the money would have landed somewhere between the present "Flushing Channel", which was finished about 1980, the NW Lower River Road, the Columbia River itself, and the position where the money was found on the Fazio property. It should be remembered that there seems to be general agreement that the money had not spent much time in water, that it was found several feet above the normal Columbia River water level (which is only about 5 to 7 feet above sea level at Tena Bar), that the money was still connected to some rubber bands, and appeared not to have been at the location where it was found for very long. All of this suggests to me that the money had spent most of its time on land and probably hadn't travelled very far (maybe just a few hundred feet) from where it landed. Or to put it in plain English, I am saying that the airliner overflew Tena Bar. My long held opinion is that Cooper did not get an open parachute and that he died in the jump. The FBI notes contain a statement that at 8:22PM PST the airliner was 23 DME (or Nautical) miles south of PDX. If the airliner stayed on the V-23 centerline, it is questionable that it could have been at that position at that time. Communication time lags need to be included in this and they are not adequately established in the notes. But if the airliner flew a generally direct (not necessairly an exact straight line) between the Malay Intersection and the above point, then the airliner probably could have made it by that time. It should be noted also that a straight line between the area of the Malay Intersection and the above point will pass almost directly over Tena Bar. The flight path south of the above point is not relevant to the jump point determination. So where is Cooper? He could easily be under the sand between the point where the money was found and the "Flushing Channel" area. If you have lived on the Columbia River or one of its tributaries, and I have, then you surely noticed the vast quantity of sand that was moved downstream, especially during high water conditions. Whatever is left of Cooper and his equipment could still be under that sand in the Tena Bar area today. Robert99

Jo, You have finally "seen the light", literally speaking. And, vice-versa, the pilots are not going see Janet on the ground what with the almost two mile distance downward, the overcast, several cloud layers below the overcast, the darkness, the light rain in the area, and they probably weren't even looking for her in the first place. Robert99

lol...I didn't know where Janet lived because I don't live and breathe DB Cooper and my memory is very selective as to what I feel the need to retain. As the other 99 pointed out, some of us have lives. You are right when you say to take into consideration the lag time. However, and I don't know this for certain, but seems like - if they were recording - the steps recorded were in sync with a timer. I've always assumed that as he's doing, he's talking, it's being recorded/typed and the recording/teletype is timed. At least that's my assumption. I could be wrong. However it's done though, even in the 70s I would have expected a little more precision than a lag time being a minute or more. The Air Traffic Control communications are routinely taped with the times being embedded in the recording. Those times were read out and were displayed at the appropriate places in the ATC radio transcripts. These times are the most accurate that you will find in this matter. Other times, such as those in the FBI notes and the messages that were sent through the ARINC radio system to NWA in Minneapolis, were definitely subject to time lags. In some cases, these ARINC messages were relayed from the hijacked airliner to other airliners, which then passed them to the ARINC system, and could have time lags of five minutes or more. Finally, why would the airliner have its landing lights on under the conditions described (not for anti-collision purposes, at 10,000 feet, no where near an airport, etc.)? Robert99

lol....okay...since we're not having much luck in WA...... I'll admit it's been a while since I've looked at the maps so I'm probably not remembering correctly but I thought that the 8:10 "oscilliation/bump" put him in Oregon anyway. the "pressure bump" was around Lake Merwin area, not around Portland or Janet's location, he could of been on the stairs a for some time I don't know. if he was timing things and Janet saw the flares you would think he would wait before jumping around PDX someone could have seen him coming down. I don't know? He wouldn't want to wait very long on those stairs. The wind chill factor at the bottom of the stairs was about 35 - 40 degrees below zero (in that range, take your pick of degrees C or degrees F).

What computer simulator program are you using? "Computer flying" is a growing hobby and there is at least one slick magazine devoted to the subject and Microsoft has some excellent software programs on the subject. Can you place the airliner at the Malay Intersection (known as the Mayfield Intersection in 1971) on V-23 and point it to the Battleground VORTAC (known as the Portland VORTAC in 1971) and record the scene? And then point it several degrees south of the Portland Airport and record that scene also from the Maylay Intersection? Robert99 Yes I can, I am currently working on the first leg of the flight out of SEA, I can change the weather in different locations, I have V23 on my map, The software is called Dreamfleet 727 that upgrades from Microsoft 2004 "Century Of Flight" I also added sky 6 and Ultimate Terrain USA for effects. I can place the plane where ever I wish, I can pause it and look from different locations from outside as well as from the ground, it's very accurate with the testing I have done so far. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsyERckru2c Please use bright sunshine with the first simulation and show all the ground points that are possible. Robert99

This is cool. Do you have a picture at 7000 ft? Like I said - I'm not saying janet's not full of it - and I doubt too that she saw "a Man" but I don't necessarily discount that she saw something illuminated against the backdrop of a plane. Just want more information. For example, minutes before in the transcripts, the plane was at 7000, the aft stair light was on and they were wondering if he's still back there. So.....it's just not as cut and dried to me. Which brings me to.....I thought no one was sure of the exact path.....has that changed? Transcripts tell elevation, but just wondering how you determined what area the plane was over at any given time. From the transcripts I guess you'd know where they were at certain points ....but even with that there could be variations of miles, right? So are you doing all variations? Just curious. thanks The Seattle ATC transcripts have been "sanitized" to prevent locating the aircraft precisely from a point about 20 nautical miles south of the Seattle Airport until the aircraft was being handed off to the Oakland controller just north of the Fort Jones, California VORTAC. Take a look at the Oakland ATC transcripts and then compare with the Seattle ATC transcripts to see what I mean. There has been considerable bitching on this thread, mainly by me, about the above matter. Robert99

What computer simulator program are you using? "Computer flying" is a growing hobby and there is at least one slick magazine devoted to the subject and Microsoft has some excellent software programs on the subject. Can you place the airliner at the Malay Intersection (known as the Mayfield Intersection in 1971) on V-23 and point it to the Battleground VORTAC (known as the Portland VORTAC in 1971) and record the scene? And then point it several degrees south of the Portland Airport and record that scene also from the Maylay Intersection? You can consider the location of the Malay Interesection and the Battleground (previously PDX) VORTAC as being correct on the maps. But the maps have been "modified", or corrected, near the supposed Lake Merwin jump point since the FBI maps came into being. Farflung put out an excellent map comparison several months ago to illustrate that point (which was discussed a bit on this thread at that time). Robert99

Farflung, You have made an excellent point and have at the same time discovered the genius of this Cooper thread. This thread is the place where "People Who Know Everything Knowable" can come to see what they have missed. If you want to know the"Wisdom of the World", you will have to look elsewhere. But if you want to know what "People Who Know Everything Unknowable" know, well here it is. Quade is to be commended for his foresight and understanding in permitting Jo Weber to start this thread. Jo and a number of others have definitely got the job done. Robert

Blevins, If he didn't make it to the ground, then exactly what did he do? I know from personal experience that the law of gravity works in the Pacific Northwest part of the country. Robert99

Jo, My apologies for the two day delay in answering your allegations. But I have a real life and am not fixated on Cooper. I simply had better and more important things to do lately. In a post this morning, you inject Robert Mitchum into the Cooper matter. I may have missed it, but have you written anything on the Elvis connection to Cooper yet? You have written that I cannot dispove that Duane Weber is not Cooper. Let me point out that does not make Duane Weber Cooper. I also cannot disprove that Robert Mitchum and Elvis were not Cooper. And that leaves 6 or 7 billion other people on the planet that I am also not going to bother checking out. Do you have a single piece of evidence to support your theory that Duane was Cooper? You do not! Rants against the FBI and others is not such evidence. Your allegations that Weber's military service number(s), regardless of how many he may have had, is a code which you, and you alone, have deciphered is laughable. You know nothing whatsoever about codes. You have written recently that Duane had not one but two Undesirable Discharges from various elements of the military. Based on my days of paper shuffling in the military, I always found that only a single Undesirable Discharge was necessary to do the job and get the "undesirable" outbound through the front gate with an MP escort. Others have managed to get an MP escort out the front gate with a lot less than an Undsirable Discharge. You have made other such nonsensical writings that don't prove a single thing! Your playing the health card for the past several years has probably got even St. Peter wondering, "Jo, Are you coming or aren't you? Make up your mind!". But in any case, your dream of being known to history as THE "Mrs. D. B. Cooper" will not happen simply because Duane Weber was NOT D. B. Cooper. Robert99

Airtwardo, Is that a reason or an excuse for what she is doing now? Robert99

In 1935 the Forest Service established the Aerial Fire Control Experimental Project in California, and experimented with dropping water and chemicals on wildland fires. Although the retardants tested proved impractical, the improvements made in delivery of cargo by parachute helped set the stage for later experiments with parachute jumping. By 1939 the Aerial Fire Control Experiment had moved from California to Winthrop, Washington, and was directing all its efforts into parachute jumping. Nine jumpers worked on the project, along with two consultants from the Eagle Parachute Company. During the summer of 1939, some 60 experimental parachute jumps were successfully made into the forests of northern Washington. Matt You only quoted what you wanted to be known. These were only experiments regarding the chutes. "experimental parachute jumps" from what I have been told it involved a lot of dummies.

Knoss, Make the "Adios" permanent and that will definitely improve this thread. And while you are leaving, take Jo Weber and all the other characters with their favorite "Cooper Candidates" with you. Robert99

Flying Cloud airport has always been in Eden Prairie, and don't try the name change deal either, that was in 1948! you would think you could at least check your sources in your own hometown? The flying cloud airport is north of the Minnesota River. On the south side of Eden Prairie. NO WAY IN HELL.....the airport could have been in Shakopee (per my little birdie) I have eye's and ears all over this round thing we live on Mr Eggman. I have a map from the 60's that shows it named Flying Cloud, Vicki pointed this out to you a year ago! Bob your story has run it's course, I believe it's time for you to retire and start building bird houses, personally I think knitting suits you better!!! also thought I would fly your flag for a while, hope ya don't mind (see photo) I used to call it the "Shakopee airport" and so did others. Everybody knew what was meant. It is on top of the hill northwest of Shakopee. It is closer to Shakopee than Minneapolis was. When you speak out of ignorance and assume you always know better because you have a different perspective, you only display your ignorance for everyone to see. Chubby Checker, the Twister. "Ya, come on and do the Twist!" How many monkeys does it take to cover up Project Norjak? How many licks in an All Day Bar? It only takes ONE to expose the facts. Cover on, cover on. BK asks, "How many monkeys does it take to cover up Project Norjak?" I don't know the exact number, but it is more than just you Knoss.

The 1998 is WHEN I started collecting data - after I got the letter from the FBI dismissing Duane Weber based on fingerprints from a prison they denied he was even a resident of in 2000. Actually they date before 1920 because Duane's brother was 12 or 13 yrs older than Duane who was born in 1924 (questionable at the time as an alteration appears on the birth certificate - as 1923). The official records compiled is what we now have to use which is 1924 and what Duane used. A forensic genealogist pulled lots of records we had NO access to on the whole family. This indivdidual had been assigned to Hoax me for a study and for a new TV series, but was unable to do so for over a yr and was monitoring this thread. One day I got a phone call - and basically hung up on the person except the individual provided me with contact information to verify his position within the system. I did so timidly and in the beginning would make contact only thru Establishment. After months of gaining my trust - we started to talk. The individual was very ill and no contact now for a long long time, but I do appreciated what this individual did for me...since I could not be hoaxed the individual aided me. That information and the concern of the individual will forever be remembered. It was the first time I had any comfirmation of the things I had been told by Duane's brother and other things told to me by Duane... The information provide the avenue to more information that proved the FBI did NOT investigate Weber and if they did they did NOT check out his family connections....things that took us right back to WA and also supported Duane's remark in the ST. Pete article when he said "They Know Me". Jo, You are just ducking the original questions. Get serious and reply to the original post. Robert99

How old were you in 1945? Your answer is relevant to your age. Please be accurate. As for calling myself Mrs. Knoss - lets NOT go that far! At least I have documents and actual files -even if like Knoss it is out of my reach! Several people helped compile all of the stuff and it dates back to 1998 (plus old stuff dating back to the 20's). I printed out sites and others did also for me before I learned to use a computer. It is amazing the changes in sites - the verbage and the general exchanging of information. Jo, If the age you have given previously is correct, then I am older than you. I also was old enough in the 1945 era to know what I saw and I don't need your so-called "experts" to provide the information or to refresh my memory. It should be noted that my information dates from the actual events in the 1945 era and not 1998 as you state your sources do. Further, you indicate that some of your sources go back to the 1920s. What is the subject of those sources? Your lectures to Matt (as well as myself) basically is that his first hand experience with certain matters is inferior to your sources. And your sources don't agree with the writings of the actual people involved in the matter. You need to stick to facts and not generate fairey tales to support your claims about being Mrs. D. B. Cooper. Robert99

Sorry, You are right. Guess I need to get off the computer and check out my ego. Just I have sat on so much for so long and then - BANG here comes this supposed expert who really doesn't know anything but what he reads on the sites. It is a fact that they were WORKING on this BEFORE the entire Unit was sent out! No way they let an entire UNIT know what might be happening as they didn't have security clearances. Even today - that is how it is! Jo, You didn't need a security clearance. All you needed to do was open your eyes and look up. I and other people I know did exactly that and what we saw didn't send us running for a bomb shelter (we didn't have one in the first place) nor did it cause us to panic. You should start calling yourself Mrs. Knoss. Robert99

Jo, Where do you come up with this nonsense? Do you get it from one of your famous books? While it was certainly a good idea to keep the information about the balloon bombs out of the media, so the Japanese couldn't benefit from the information, said information did appear even in national magazines as has been mentioned in this thread previously. The balloon bombs were common knowledge in my area of WA state in WW2. I saw one of them. They did not strike fear in my young heart or the hearts of anyone else that I knew. There was no "public panic". Your continued and deliberate mistatements of the actual facts only demonstrate how far you will twist the truth in a last ditch effort to link Duane in any manner possible to the Cooper hijacking. You have never been able to come up with any evidence to suggest that Duane was anything but an inept small time crook who had a big mouth and was good at conning people such as yourself. Robert99

Yep, look at the quotes, same quotes I used, same on the dates. But They can't be right because the guy with Alzheimer's that Jo spoke to says some thing different. November 0f 1944 the 555th was still at Bragg NC. hmmm. Matt WRONG INFORMATION AGAIN. I SPOKE WITH LLOYD WHO IS VERY SOUND OF MIND. SEE U CANNOT EVEN GET THAT STRAIGHT SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET ANYTHING ELSE STRAIGHT. NOW U SAY 1944 AND THAT IS CORRECTED, BUT WHEN THEY GOT TO WA. THEY DID NOT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE JUMPING IN THE HEAVY FOREST AND WITH THE SPECIALIZE EQUIPMENT - THEY GOT SOME VERY QUICK LESSONS FROM DERRY IN WA. THE 555 WAS NOT SMOKE JUMPERS IN 1945. JUST MILITARY JUMPERS. JUMPERS WHO FELT THEY WERE BEING SENT TO WA -TO DO THE WHITE MANS DIRTY WORK TO HELP FIGHT FIRES. THEY WERE UNAWARE OF THE BALLOON BOMBS...AS THIS WAS KEPT UNDER WRAPS UNTIL THEY ARRIVED IN WA. WHEN THEY GOT THERE - THEY MADE HISTORY. IT WOULD BE 1945 BEFORE THEY BECAME THE NICKELS. Jo, Just exactly what is there in your background that makes you feel qualified to lecture Matt on military parachuting, sports parachuting, or even the time of day? Don't be modest. Just give a short list of your accomplishments in the parachuting area. Matt would probably appreciate seeing your list of accomplishments also. Also, what is the source of your statements about the balloon bombs? The balloon bombs were common knowledge for WA residents in that period. I lived there then and saw one of those balloons. Are you asking me to believe you rather than my own eyes? Robert99

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