Robert99

Olemiss, when will your book be published. I'll be very happy to buy one of the first copies.

Oh, Georger! Haven't I mentioned this to you, other posters on this thread, and everyone else on the planet, for about the last 15 years that Cooper had to land as a no-pull in a very restricted area near Tena Bar for the money to get to where it was found. The details of the above were last posted here within the last few weeks.

You are wrong. The wind would keep the stairs up. If anyone jumped from the 727 aft stairs at 325 MPH they would have to crawl through a relatively small opening at the end of the stairs.

Cooper obviously had aeronautical experience and should have known that the airflow would keep the stairs from descending very much under their own weight. Nevertheless, within minutes of Tina going to the cockpit he was calling about not being able to get the stairs opened. Exactly what his problem was is not known but presumably Tina taught him enough to get the stairs unlocked. So from about 7:45 PM until he jumped at about 8:11 PM Cooper was occupied with getting the money bag tied to himself and disposing of the brief case and whatever else he would not need in the jump. He may have had to walk down past the stairs hinge point to create enough space to get rid of those items. And he may have had to crawl down the stairs to create an opening big enough for him to jump. So he may have had some new experiences in just getting out of the aircraft.

My understanding is that the aft stairs were removed for serious Air America drops and that a metallic slide was installed down to the bottom of the fuselage. So jumpers and cargo just slid out the bottom of the fuselage. I am not aware of any information on the flap position at the time of the jump, but my guess is that it was still at 15 degrees, and the airspeed was still in the neighborhood of 225 MPH.

OleMiss is right. The airliner really did have to slow down. The NWA performance group in Minneapolis told the crew to fly at an Indicated Air Speed of 170 Knots to achieve the best range for the aircraft configuration that Cooper specified. At 10,000 feet pressure altitude with the existing temperature, that 170 KIAS becomes 195 Knots True Air Speed. And that 195 KTAS is 225 MPH. Considering the construction of the aft fuselage of the 727, it is unlikely that Cooper could stand upright or even close to it once he was past the stairs hinge point.

That is not entirely correct. Quite a few of those records were not actually lost. They were recoverable from other sources that were not in the fire. This means that there was more than one copy of many of those records and they were not in St. Louis or the fire. For instance, do you remember carbon paper? The military thrives on duplicate copies.

You seem to be unaware that the fingerprints taken by the military eventually end up at the FBI. The FBI used to be the agency that did background checks on military personnel, and they would need those fingerprints to do those checks. As a personal example, my fingerprints have probably been in the FBI data base since I was about 16 years old. I had to submit a complete fingerprint card in order to fly on military aircraft. While the card was initially submitted to the military, it almost certainly ended up at the FBI. In that time frame, fingerprints were about the only way to positively identify victims of aircraft accidents.

Yes, they did!

Meyer was a genuinely good and decent man.

There is no way to date this. It assumes that Cooper was a no-pull and died in the jump. The Western Flight Path (or whatever you want to call it) to bypass Portland on the west side would have passed almost directly over Tena Bar. Specifically, the WFP was almost straight down the center of the Columbia River for several miles. Due to the winds aloft being from the southwest at all altitudes up to 10,000 feet and of about 30 knots velocity, Cooper would have travelled about 1000 feet to the northeast during a free fall which was between about 40 to 60 seconds. And he would have landed on solid ground but very close to the river's eastern side. He would have also had to land west of the Northwest Lower River Road (which is built on top of a levee) in order to enter the Columbia in the area of Tena Bar. FWIW, the late Dr. Meyer Louie and I went through the dairy runoff settling pond (which is just over the bank from Tena Bar) about 10 years ago with metal detectors and didn't find a single thing, The detector's manufacturer indicated that they should be able to find anything up to two or three feet beneath the sand under the conditions we experienced. Additionally, local fishermen who were longtime visitors to Tena Bar told us that they had never seen the river high enough to flood the settling pond or anything from the settling pond passing into the river. All of this was discussed here in much more detail 10 to 15 years ago. To respond here to FlyJack's post of a few minutes ago, the jump time of 8:11 PM PST has been the accepted jump time from day one which was 1971. This is not a new revelation. Further, I reject the FBI's proposed flight path out of hand. No airline crew would fly like that under the hijacking circumstances. Also, the FBI's FOIA unit has gone out of their way to ensure that the actual transcripts of the communications between the airliner and the Seattle ATC are not released. And those transcripts are in the public domain.

George's premise can be expanded a bit. Assume that the money deposited at Tena Bar was still in its original but damaged bag. And assume that the damaged bag was still attached to Cooper. Several months after the hijacking and being repeatedly soaked by the famous Oregon rains, Cooper's remains, and the bills would have lost all buoyancy and been moving downhill from wherever they originally landed. That means they would be moving along the bottom. Everything hangs up momentarily at some point on Tena Bar, several packets of bills come out of the damaged bag, then the rest of the items move on downstream into the Columbia River proper, then the Pacific, and are never seen again.

So the story about the "ransom pack" of bills having been microfilmed is correct? But I strongly suspect that a machine device of some sort was used to count the 10,000 bills for the NWA ransom. Also, I read somewhere that Cooper was only given 9,998 bills. So the ransom was $40 short. Further, just because something has not been publicly released by the FBI doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. How many thousand more FBI files are there to be released under the Mark Zaid legal matter?

Also ask Carr if the money was microfilmed during the set-up of the "ransom money fund". The $200,000 for the airliner was apparently counted by some machine immediately before going to the airliner.

At this point in time, NO ONE knows exactly how the money got to Tena Bar. And we will probably never know. But if the dredge theory is correct, and I don't know one way or the other, then the money came from the shipping channel which is adjacent to the Oregon side of the river. And if the money was ever in the shipping channel, no natural process would get it.

FlyJack, you need to do your own homework on buoyancy. You don't seem to understand the term. Wikipedia has a page on buoyancy if you are interested in learning what the term means.

Rocks probably have more buoyancy than a water-soaked packet of bills. The buoyancy of rocks is equal to the weight of the water they displace. A water-soaked packet of bills doesn't displace much water at all. FlyJack, do you have any knowledge of or training in the physical sciences? I you do, how about revealing it. On the matter of money shards at Tena Bar. An FBI agent wrote a book (which I may still have somewhere) that he found shards at Tena Bar and put them in an evidence envelope. He then put his initials on the evidence envelope and turned it over to the appropriate evidence specialists.

If I remember correctly, TK said about 15 years ago that the fanning of the bills occurred just after it was placed in water and as the bills became saturated. And as the bills became saturated they sank to the bottom and stayed there. There is no natural process that would move the bills back to the surface.

Let me point out some additional things that support Georger's comments above. Tena Bar is washed by water flow that comes down the narrow channel between Caterpillar Island and the Washington mainland. The outlet from this channel is a very short distance upstream from Tena Bar. There is a marina in that channel and a number of people live on their boats (remember Amazon?) in that channel. It is safe to assume that there is some biological material in the water that exits that channel and washes Tena Bar. Anyone interested in testing their theory about the missing shards from the money that was found should do the following. Take some genuine currency and place it in a container until it is thoroughly soaked then remove it and place it in direct sunlight until it is completely dry. Repeat this about 50 times and then note what is missing from the original bills. To put it another way, the bills don't have to roll on the river bottom to lose the shards.

I live more than 4000 feet above sea level and 112 degrees would be more accurate at my house. But just wait until mid-summer gets here. Here are a couple of things I seem to remember from TK's experiments using actual US currency, his own I might add. When TK placed bundles of money held together by rubber bands in water, the ends of the bundles flared and the bundles soon sank. When the bundles sank to the bottom, they stayed there permanently. Having visited Tena Bar several times and having spent several decades involved with such things as aerodynamics and fluid flow, I can categorically state that the money DID NOT come from the river. If the money entered the river in its east-to-west segment adjacent to the Portland International Airport or at some point further upstream, after it made the turn to the north it would have passed Tena Bar on the riverbed and the Oregon side of the river. While the exact location and elevation where the money was found is not now know, it was probably not more than 5 or 6 feet above sea level. Except during spring runoffs, the surface of the river at Tena Bar is typically only 2 or 3 feet above sea level. The daily tidal change is less than 2 feet.

FlyJack must be the new owner of this site. And he apparently feels that he alone has all the answers. He calls some of the people who disagree with him liars and others lesser names. So far as I can tell, FlyJack has not done a single thing here that advanced the Cooper investigation and has claimed credit for things that other people originally did long before he turned up on this site.

By coincidence or otherwise, the 10,000-foot altitude that Cooper specified also happens to be the minimum altitude for radio reception and obstacle clearance for aircraft headed south on V-23. It should be remembered that the airliner had to climb to 11,000 feet to clear the mountains between V-23 and Reno when it turned toward Reno. While Rataczak suggested climbing above the overcast and then circling over the Pacific until Cooper jumped and/or blew up the airliner, he was told to forget about it by NWA management. There is no specific reason for any aircraft flying south from Seattle to fly over the Pacific.

Here is an honest answer to your honest question. Honest answer: Do you actually think the FBI is interested in solving the hijacking? Answer "yes" or "no"? No "maybes". Next question. How many air traffic control radio transcripts have you reviewed in your lifetime? Hundreds? Thousands? More? Do you have any experience listening to live air traffic control communications or communicating with air traffic control? Have you read the Oakland Center/Reno radio transcripts? Did you notice any differences with the type of information in the Seattle Center radio transcripts? In all the paperwork shuffling, the FBI has NEVER denied the existence of an unredacted version of the Seattle Center transcripts. And they have NEVER claimed that the publicly released transcripts were not redacted. Himmelsbach was not directly involved in the initial FBI investigation which was done by the Seattle FBI Office. OleMiss, if you have a copy of the unredacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts how about giving a link to it. When all is said and done, it has been in the public domain since day one.

It all depends on which FBI agent to believe. I have held various licenses issued by the Federal Government since the age of 16, I have served in the military, and I have worked for several different government organizations. The USAF, and presumably the FBI, have had my fingerprint cards since the age of about 16 since it was required for me to fly on military aircraft. In all that time, the government got my name wrong in only one instance. And that was when I filed an FOIA action to get the unredacted version of the radio transcripts between the airliner and the Seattle ATC Center. After denying my request, the FBI changed my name on the appeal paperwork to DOJ from "Robert" to "Richard". And "Richard" didn't compute with the DOJ. Although I never got the transcripts, my Congresswoman did get some information for me through her House of Representatives office. The point of the above is that there are some bureaucrats, even in the FBI, who like to play silly games. OleMiss, how about passing your web site, or whatever it is, to Funny Stuff so he can make some effort to catch up on what has been going on here for the last decade or two.

Oh my! What do you mean by "the frequency was known to be down"? What are you talking about? You need to take a look at the 17 pages of information that the FBI sent to Sluggo about 2009. Plus the brief text print outs of the ARINC messages in the Portland/Seattle area. All of this information is available on this site, or at least it was before the move. The FBI said in 1971 that the jump time was 8:11 PM and you can take that number to the bank. Anyone who thinks it was just discovered last week didn't do their homework.