Robert99

If only they succeeded... sigh. Sometimes I wonder if thinking is really teachable. I want to know what ate those holes in my Tena Bar Twenty. 377 377, You are starting with an assumption. What leads you to believe anything "ate" the money to cause those holes? A better stated question would be, What caused those holes? Robert99

I'm not a bug-ologist but those critters seem to like air. Do they have any acquatic capabilities? Or even wet (or dry) sand capabilities? If the answer to these questions is no, then it looks like the bugs did their work when the money was exposed to the atmosphere and before it got to its discovery location. Robert99

Nope, there isnt. I have ZERO evidence that proves Cooper lived. The canopy was huge though, over 600 sq ft of nylon, which was either white or had multicolored high viz panels. There was about 644 feet of suspension lines too, lot of snag potential Even if the canopy stayed in the pack, the rig is pretty big. Even today they find intact canopies in submerged WW2 aircraft wrecks. If Cooper went in as a no pull, I'd have expected some evidence from his rig to be discovered. JT thinks the unopened rig is out there somewhere in the Washougal, waiting to be discovered. Crooks dont discard cash. The presence of thousands at Tena bar suggests to me that Cooper may have gone in as a no pull. Its also possible that he became separated from the money during the jump. That happened to one other skyjacker who survived the jump but landed penniless. That was one honest farmer that turned in the cash loot. Like I said, the Tena bar money drives me nuts. It puts a constraint on the equation solution that looks so appealing, but in the end it proves nothing about who DBC was or what happened to him. When the money was originally found I thought BINGO, soon the case will be solved. Boy was I wrong. 377 Budda says that if you want to find Cooper and his rig, you have to search where he at, not where you hope he at, or even where you think he at. The money at Tena Bar is a separate and independent data point. It doesn't indicate who Cooper was but it sure sugggests what happened to him. Robert99

Would Cooper have hijacked an aircraft from his local airport? Is there an area near where he apparently wanted to jump that had a relatively high transient population? Did Cooper have assistants that would not notify the FBI even if they knew Cooper personally? Questions and more questions. Robert99

Farflung, A question: 1. IF the salmon fishers scoured the Columbia twice a year for 8+ years from late 1971 onward, and 2. IF the whole Columbia shipping channel had to be re-dredged from Bonneville Dam to some point far downstream (maybe Amazon can pinpoint that) due to the little matter of the Mount St. Helens event, which happened just a few months after the money was found, then 3. WHAT was Tosaw doing looking in the Columbia River depths sometime after the money was found in early 1980? That would be at least 16 scourings by the salmon fishers plus all the dredging that was required to re-open the river after the Mount St. Helens event (which closed the shipping channel for several months). Answer: Tosaw was an optimist. The people at Bonneville Dam have a beautiful exhibit about all the dredging that was done after the Mount St. Helens event. Also, Amazon's post about the sand in the Columbia and how it is affected by flooding is an extremely important point. Quite a few decades ago, I spent a couple of years living on a tributary of the Columbia River (actually about 4 miles from the Columbia itself) and the movement of sand on the tributary was plainly evident even to me and my playmates after a high water event. Robert99

Hominid, To add to Matt's comments, the altimeter setting is measured at a standard distance above the ground (it used to be about 20 feet) so it is logical to assume that the surface winds would probably be measured at a standard distance above the ground also and it would probably be the same distance used in the altimeter setting. Unless it has been changed in recent years (or decades), the surface winds are given in miles per hour and the direction (which is the direction from which they are blowing) is magnetic. The runway heading is also magnetic. This has evolved from the good old days and is supposed to simplify the pilot's understanding of the conditions. In addition, if you really want to get serious about it, the FAA has a free publication online which can be downloaded. Its title: Surface Weather Observing, dated May 11, 2001, and it is 267 pages long. Robert99

I imagine they were scared to death trying the Reno landing with the stairs dragging on the pavement. That's just a guess, of course. Blevins, the stairs didn't drag until they were turning off the runway. The problem was that they could only descend at about 300 to 500 feet per minute and that is much less than the normal descent rate during final approach. On the original approach, they were overshooting the runway due to the local obstacles to the airport. They broke off that approach then circled so that they were a bit further out from the point they broke off the approach and did it again. This time they were able to hit the approach end of the runway even with their low descent rate. The stairs did drag a little after turning off the runway but only had very minor damage. A picture of the stairs after the landing can be found on Sluggo's web page. Robert99

Too cool. I had faith that someone would eventually take the simulation project on. Looking good! eta: I had to go here to see what Farflung was talking about re Sierra hotel....and I agree... http://www.tailhook.org/AVSLANG.htm thanks 99, who knows what we will uncover or find, if anything? it sure is fun to find out! a lot of the forward progress is due to Hominid laying out the programs to run with the testing. when I first thought of it I had no idea how involved it would wind up being. I'm enjoying every dime spent on it I'll tell you that much, I've learned tons of info about the 727 and tons of info thru Hominid, roger Mrshutter, that is a beautiful and realistic video. The fact that the rear stairs were down caused the flight crew to have some difficulties with the aircraft both in climbing and in descending. Comments about the climbing are in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts as the airliner was trying to reach 7000 feet and then on up to 10,000 feet. During level flight at 10,000 feet, these problems were not as pronounced. After being handed off to the Oakland ATC controller, the controller specifically asked them about their turn rate and descent capability. Some of these remarks are at about 10:15 PM PST in the Oakland transcrips. Initially, the Oakland Center apparently was informed of these reduced capabilities by phone by someone in Seattle (probably Al Lee). Anyway the flight crew said that they could not do a standard rate turn (2 minutes for 360 degrees of turn, or 3 degrees per second). Also, they asked for a descent rate of between 3 and 5 hundred feet per minute. And a really long final into Reno. Despite that, they had to break off their approach and circle to try it again. Robert99

Great! Did the Flying Monkey also give you the low down on KC?

Neither you or I found an "ambiguity". I just pointed out a bad assumption in your statement. Did you complain about that $1600 toilet seat when flying 24 hour missions? Robert99

The picture of people digging, with the camera pointed to the west side of the Columbia, contains enough geographical and other information so that the location of the digging can be determined quite accurately. Robert99

Farflung, You are getting to be as bad as Jo Weber in mis-stating things. If you paid attention, you would remember that I mentioned in a post within the last few days where the Seattle VORTAC station was located. I have also specified the location of the Seattle VORTAC any number of times in posts over the last three years. "Store bought trig"? I did buy and pay for all of my trig books, as well as all other books, over the years. Didn't you learn any "trig" at the Academy? Robert99

"Bug-smashers"? You need to re-read some of your wise cracks from yesterday and then get your memory fixed. Assuming you weren't exposed to trigonometry in the third grade, the angle of climb for the hijacked airliner was very small. Perhaps you can find an online calculator to help you with the rest. Climb out airspeed and ground speed the same? That may be routinely true in YOUR world, but in real life it takes an unusual set of circumstances for that to be the case. Among other things, you do know what winds aloft are don't you? Based on this and some of your earlier posts, I suggest that you get in touch with your navigator and kiss his or her ring and then gift them with something like a case of Johnny Walker Red/White/Blue. Robert99

I'm not following Farf? the plane kicks the tires and lights the fires at 7:36 and arrives at 14 DME at 7:40:37 4 minutes and 37 seconds they level off at 7000 and "were gonna have er about down to about a hundred and sixty knots" that's 14 miles in 4:37 correct? then they travel 5 miles in 3 minute arriving at 19 DME? I have been taking off at 7:36:33 and climbing to 7000 arriving at 7:40:37 applying 30 degree flaps and slowing to 160 all the way to 7:54 after climbing to 10,000 I speed up to about 170/180 arriving at Toledo/Maylay at around 7:59 I gave up trying to match the two transmits from the start of the flight. Mrshutter, If at all possible, use the times in the radio transcripts since they include seconds. And those times are accurate. The 14 DME point is listed in those transcripts but I have just searched for the 19 DME point again and didn't find it. However, the 19 DME reference is in the "FBI Notes". Robert99

At 7000 feet ASL (which is about 6500 feet above the Seattle VORTAC elevation) and with a DME reading exactly 19.0, the horizontal distance from the Seattle VORTAC is less than 200 feet lower than the 19.0 DME reading. So it (the altitude) is not a factor at all. Robert99

Farflung writes: Where do I begin Robert99? You say you have a better answer, I don’t doubt that for a second, but many others will. How do we arrive at the Columbia flowing uphill? Via science? Careful analysis? Or goof-ball shooting from the hip, derived from a non-systemic approach, driven by desired results? Who was it that said the 727 was the only commercial plane with aft stairs? (Hint it was you) R99 replies: As mentioned in an earlier post, a good starting place would be to read both the Seattle and Oakland ATC radio transcripts. I didn't say I had a better answer, I said I had a simpler answer than the one you proposed. What can be simpler than a straight fall from the aircraft? Every time I have seen it, the Columbia River was flowing down hill. Keep in mind that the typical daily height of the Columbia at Tena Bar is about 5 to 7 feet ASL (repeat, Above Sea Level) with a daily tidal fluctuation of less than 2 feet. During spring snow melt and other such things, the level of the Columbia does increase. But the highest point of land at Tena Bar is probably less than 25 feet above sea level. If anyone said that the 727 was the only commercial plane with aft stairs, it wasn't me. I had flown on the 727 and a number of other commercial aircraft that had aft stairs prior to the hijacking. Farflung writes: How in your ‘enlightened’ world would adding this layer of complexity be simpler, from my original comment? What specifically (quote a little bit, not a Jo amount) put such a bee in your bonnet? IF (IF), I said IF (IF AGAIN), I was tasked as a private sector designer, to propose the simplest system, to deliver money to Tena Bar, using known data (cleared take off, SEA-TAC via V-frigging23), it would be a single drop, from V-23, over the Columbia. R99 replies: I removed at least one layer of complexity from your suggestion. I don't have a bee in my bonnet or even a bonnet. V-23 only crosses the Columbia about 4 miles west of the Portland airport. From there it is a 5 to 10 mile trip downstream to Tena Bar. Farflung writes: My first question was….. Is this the simplest design? You apparently felt it wasn’t. Next, I asked for a similar process outline, which is simpler. You didn’t oblige. But I did get to read about a bunch of crap that would be removed from the equation as it adds no value. I’m not trying to design a $1600 toilet seat here. R99 replies: The first two remarks have already been addressed. It is necessary to read the "bunch of crap" to understand the air traffic control conditions under which the aircraft was operating. It was not operating under a strict flight plan and that must remain in the equation. Farflung writes: Why is this so complex? I imagine you are blinded by your bias, and an unfounded fear that if you agree with what I said, it will make that some de facto answer, and thrust you into a parallel universe. In case you haven’t noticed, all the time travel happens on this thread, thanks to people who must be truly terrifying to be around in person. The basic starting point is NOT (NO GAWD DAMN IT) an answer, but it is derived from available, public and published data AND is plausible. That’s fawking all. But by all means, talk about how the plane was cleared to be ‘anywhere’, like Guam or Christmas Island, because there are no sanity checks, just Sasquatches digging holes on riverbanks with milk buckets. There is NO MENTION OF DREDGING either. Why all the non-sequitur inclusion? Steering something? R99 replies: It is not inherently complex. I don't believe in parallel universes and have no fear of agreeing with you. However, in this case I just don't believe it happened the way you propose. Robert99

Not sure what is going on or what this is all about but there is no 'script' on my part about anything or with anyone. Hmmmm. Guess I will figure this out later. To Robt99: I had no plan for a long dissertation on the dredging. Not sure what you have in mind or expect, from me? Tonight? Oh! Far had asked about previous research on dredging along the Columbia (last night) and I said I would come back and say more tonight - that was my only plan, if anyone cares? But no script made for it ... IN FACT THE ONLY REASON IM HERE is I have a break and a moment, have been at Tom's website which I see has been highly revised since the last time I was there. I went to Toms site looking for his comments about print bleeds (exact stacking of bills) but could not find anything about that? Maybe I need another pair of glasses but I cant find it - does anyone knows where it is exactly, under MONEY, under Tina Bar, maybe he removed that Sasquatch? If anyone knows post a note here. I will be back later tonight. Carry on! IO really would like to find Toms exact comments about his socalled print-exact lineup btwn bills - if its even on his website? I want to know what "bills" he's talking about ??? The three bills he received originally (sent by Carr), other bills he looked at in Seattle .... WTF are you talking about Tom!? I hope you are not using a sample of 3 bills as representative of all the bundles, all the cash, what are you talking about? G. Please explain to Farflung and others where the dredging was done and not done, and where the resulting material was put and not put. Robert99

Let me respond, answer is not the right word, to both of your posts. First, the Cooper hijacking is not brain surgery. Second, the Cooper hijacking is not even rocket science. Third, the Cooper hijacking is not even science. However, science can help in resolving it. Fourth, the Cooper hijacking is a simple case of an individual who got lucky, came into some money under illegal circumstances, and was last seen alive, as far as it is known, shortly before he departed the stairs of an airliner, by either jumping off, falling off, or being thrown off, while flying at 10,000 feet. More than eight years later, some of the money Cooper received was found relatively near the flight path of the airliner. How the money got to that location has generated more theories than there are answers. Spontaneous subject? Theatrics? If you have a sincere and non-garbage theory that can put the money well above the normal water level at Tena Bar, and uses only gravity, wind, and water (but not too much water) to do so, then please post it to this thread so lesser mortals can be enlightened. Robert99

Farflung, We seem to be having a communications problem. First, it is obvious that you have not read the radio transcripts that are available on Sluggo's web page. If you had, you would be aware of the "clearance" that was passed to the hijacked airliner by the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center. In case you are not familiar with the functions of air traffic control, more information can be found on Wikipedia and the Seattle ATC Center has its own web page that can be found thru Google. Basically, the "clearance" was "do whatever you have to do and we will keep people out of your way". The airliner was given a block of air space 4000 feet above and below its requested (by Cooper) 10,000 feet ASL cruising altitude. While no lateral limits were mentioned in the clearance, I am aware that airways have lateral boundaries in case you are wondering, it was clearly implied that they could depart V-23 if they so desired. The Seattle VORTAC is and was between the runways on the south side of the Seattle airport. The airliner took off almost directly aligned with V-23 and climbed straight out. However, if the FBI flight path charts are to be believed, the airliner did quite a bit of wandering laterally on V-23 during its flight to the Mayfield (now Malay) Intersection and then on to the Portland (now Battleground) VORTAC. If you wish to view the navigational information the airliner crew used during the flight along V-23, then you need go no further than Sluggo's web page again. A copy of the L-1 and L-2 Low Altitude Enroute IFR Charts that were in effect on November 24, 1971 can be found there. The Seattle ATC radio transcripts for the flight south are also available on Sluggo's web page. If you take the time to read them, you will discover that from a point about 20 nautical miles south of the Seattle VORTAC to just north of the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California the transcrips do not contain a single thing which would pinpoint the location of the aircraft. Almost all of the conversation between the airliner and Seattle ATC was simply one controller telling the airliner to contact another controller and stating the new frequency, and the receiving controller telling the airliner to ident and state altitude. If you are not familiar with ATC communications in the 1971 era, then you need to read the Oakland ATC Center's transcripts which are also available on Sluggo's web page. The Oakland transcripts depict life and it was lived in that day. And it is clearly evident that the Seattle ATC transcripts have been "scrubbed" to delete relevant information about the airliner's flight path. If you feel that the time and position marks on the FBI's charts are correct, then please explain how an aircraft flying at constant speed can travel three miles in one minute and then six miles in the next minute without changing speed or spoofing the clock. To summarize the flight path information, no one knows precisely the airliner's position during the time it was in the Portland area. If something can be more simple than a direct fall onto Tena Bar then please elaborate. Also, please keep in mind that when Cooper separated from the airliner, he would be on the ground in about 40 seconds if no-pull. After that, water was the only "moving" force and would only apply sporadically if he landed on solid ground. If you accept the FBI's flight path with a segmented circle around the west side of Portland, then please explain why it would not be much simpler to just change course a few degrees to the west earlier and then fly a straight line to a point on V-23 south of Portland. If Georger posts on the dredging later today, as he indicated he would, then he may answer some questions that you didn't realize you wanted to ask. Also, a few weeks ago, I suggested a visit to Tena Bar with equipment appropriate for making a suitable search related to Cooper. There were no takers. Would you be interested in visiting Tena Bar? Robert99

Do you have ANY evidence at ALL to support such a statement? Have you had a chance to examine any of the found bills in a research environment with really smart folks behind the wheel? What makes you say this? Tom Kaye and his team came to the conclusion that the money arrived by what he calls 'non-natural means' and he discounts the dredging theory. If those bills were dredged onto the shore, then how exactly did some of them come to align so perfectly that the ink from the serial numbers ran together? Let's not forget there were also rubber bands in place, although they crumbled upon contact. Dredging is a pretty rough process. In addition, the bills were discovered well above the water line. Perhaps a flood or high water delivered them there. Fine. Then explain HOW $5,800 of this money ended up in the same exact spot. Maybe the bundles reached out in a happy-happy Kum-Ba-Ya moment and somehow stayed together. Make fun of this if you wish, but it's hard to explain how MORE THAN ONE BUNDLE of the cash ended up buried together in the condition it was found. A great deal of it, yes. That would point to a dropzone for the money. Less than a bundle, again yes. That might point to a lost cash bag going downriver from somewhere with a leak, or hanging up and then disintegrating and leaking. Three bundles together (approximate amount) is much harder to explain using dredging or washdown, especially above the water line. And didn't I hear something about the location of the find being ABOVE the line where they were dumping the dredge spoils? Blevins, It would be nice if you would read the question from Georger that I responded to. My response explains itself. I did not say that dredging was involved. Tom Kaye, Georger, and others, as well as myself, have long known that the money was found well above the water line. In my personal judgment, the fact that some of the bills were still bundled, or close to it, suggests that the money had not moved very far from its original resting point. Hopefully, Georger will expand on the dredging operations later today. If he does, you may learn something so read his post carefully. There have been any number of other posts on this thread over the years by several individuals, including myself, about the Tena Bar money find and how the money may have arrived there. It might be helpful if you read some of them. Robert99

Blevins, Have you seen any solid evidence that supports the flight path? If so, please state where it has been hiding. Robert99

Farflung writes: Here’s the starting point, official or otherwise: Centerline, infinitely small point, V-23. Money release point, anywhere along V-23 centerline, and over the Columbia River. End of data. END…. THE E-N-D The only extra would be from inference, bias or voodoo, at this moment. End of model. There is no more. “In the beginning……:” blah, blah, blah “Amen.” R99 replies: Farflung, the "end of data", with respect to the flight path, is the point where the stair placard landed. Tom Kaye has published the GPS coordinates of that point. The estimated point for the placard's separation from the aircraft has been calculated but required so many "assumptions", about such things as winds aloft, that it must not be accepted as absolute truth. The "end of data", with respect to the jump point, is the point where the money was found at Tena Bar. And Tom Kaye has also published the GPS coordinates of that point. It is speculation to say that the jump point had to be on the V-23 centerline on over the Columbia River. Farflung continues: This is the simplest design to deliver some money to Tena Bar. Agreed? Yes/No? If No, What is a simpler solution? Present it. If Yes, what data set would move or modify the original points? You must have a source, no more ‘because I say so’ or wishful thinking. It just can’t be this difficult to make this point. How do you know Cooper didn’t jump over Guam? If you can reason that out, or into the equation, then any other data set you possess or covet, should work just as well. It would be a matter of resolution and not process, since they are the same. Did Cooper jump over Christmas Island? See, two places are on or off the list, but YOU maintain the things, because I want to know what lies in the realm of most probable (least complex)…. to less probable, based upon things which exclude unicorns, wishful thinking and pure bullshit. R99 replies: The simplest way for the money to get to Tena Bar is a direct jump or, more likely, crater on Tena Bar. There is no accurate information on the exact jump point, FBI maps to the contrary. The Tena Bar money find and location is a single, independent data point. It is not an "outlier", but is a valid point and how the money got there has a rational explanation even if it is not known at this time. Hopefully, Georger will expand on the dredge operations later today. Robert99

The luminaries on the thread who are stumbling over themselves to embrace the "official" flight path need to explain exactly which "official" flight path they are talking about. Do you agree with the flight path shown on the FBI maps, the one where the controller has told several people that the airliner flew "right down the centerline of V-23", the one shown on some illustrations (which may or may not be "official") and supported by some people on this thread indicating the airliner passed east of Portland, the segmented circle bypassing Portland on the west side shown on the FBI maps, or whatever? In addition to specifying a actual flight path, rather than just a generic "official" one, please indicate the locations of the radar(s) that were used to determine the claimed flight path, the accuracy of the radar(s), how the positions shown were determined, and where on god's green earth those times shown on the FBI charts came from. If you are fortunate, you will come up with an "official" flight path that is several miles wide (right or left of the flight path centerline) and maybe pinpoint the airliner's position within plus or minus five miles along that flight path for a given time. But don't rely on the times and positions on the "official" FBI charts for reasons that were explained elsewhere years ago. And while you are at it, please explain the segmented flight path on the west side of Portland, its purpose, and who dreamed up the idea of doing it that way. I have never met a pilot who would do something like that under the conditions the airliner was operating at that time. If you don't know how to navigate, and Blevins for one apparently doesn't based on his 30 day wandering in the wilderness less than 10 miles from the point where he left an Interstate Highway, then check the FAA publications web page. You will probably be able to download a free publication on the subject. If all else fails, let me know and perhaps I can help you find a suitable publication. But at the present time there is no high quality data extant for the actual flight path and times along that flight path from about 20 nautical miles south of Seattle until the airliner is near the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California. To answer Georger's specific question, and he and I have discussed this subject privately before, the answer is probably yes. And the best time to check would be after flooding above a certain elevation. This implies that the money impacted on land and stayed in the money bag for a substantial period of time and gradually "leaked" out when the flooding reached its elevation. Robert99

Quote If you READ the post I made THIS is WHAT IT SAID! PLEASE STOP TWISTING MY WORDS. if YOU are GOING to use MY words PLEASE COPY my post prior to YOUR opinion of what I said. This IS EXACTLY what someone with an AGENDA does to discredit other posters - MAKING that poster sound LIKE a liar. QUOTE: My post below on the subject you TWISTED: "Perhaps - but, he wanted to jump from the aft stairs because he felt that was SAFER! Remember Cooper may have been in association with military pilots - and Weber was WELL AWARE the 727 could be jumped as 377 will tell you. For yrs I told these guys the plane was used during some exercises in the late 60's but NO one believed me until SNOWMMAN found the very clip that Duane was watching when he made the statement. It was a specific thing and was aired during the yrs of 1990 to 1994 because I remembered were he was sitting when the clip was on a TV program. Again - Jo's memory is pretty DAMN good. Bet Snowmman could even find the date the clip was shown in a documentary of TV." The above is what I said. I did NOT say Duane made that statement. JO WEBER: YOU DO SAY THAT DUANE MADE THAT STATEMENT!!! STARTING WITH SNOWMAN'S NAME, ". . . SNOWMAN FOUND THE VERY CLIP THAT DUANE WAS WATCHING WHEN HE MADE THE STATEMENT". THIS WHOLE THING IS IN YOUR QUOTATION ABOVE. Robert99

There should be someone on this thread who can answer the question as it pertains to Boeing and NWA. My personal guess is that they were ALL automatically finger printed but that those prints, depending on the individuals job, were not necessairly put into the FBI's national database although they may have been checked with the appropriate local law enforcement agencies. But if the individuals job required a security clearance, then they would definitely be finger printed and those prints would end up at the FBI. Anyone working on a project that involved the CIA would certainly have their prints on file at the FBI (and/or CIA). In my personal case, my prints have probably been on file at the FBI since about the age of 16. They were submitted to the USAF as a requirement for flying on military aircraft at that tender age (among other things, they help identify bodies in case of accidents). Also, in the early years of the Korean War, all civilian pilots in the United States were required to get an "Airman's Identification Card" which required a full finger printing and a passport type picture. And you had to show up live and breathing at the appropriate then CAA (or what ever preceeded the FAA) office with the finger print card and picture in order to get the card. These cards were discontinued after about five years. Also, I was fingerprinted in the military and, as a civilian engineer in DOD, was fingerprinted ever time I changed employing agencies. Upon retiring from DOD, I was issued an ID card that said, among other things, "Retired". Robert99