Robert99

Try the photo in its entirety - THAT is a BRIEFCASE, but more like a music case. The man has the case in his LEFT hand. That is a medium thickness attache case in the fellow's left hand. But he is NOT wearing a uniform of ANY kind. Robert99

Jo, You need to stop playing games! I wrote post 38609 and you replied to it in post 38614 and added the text in question but you got it intermingled with my own comments. In addition you edited post 38614 so it was you who added the text that you now deny knowing anything about. I replied to your post 38614 in post 38625 and returned my comments to their original order and grouped your comments together. You then posted a duplicate of post 38614 as post 38641. I am now replying to your post 38642 in which you deny making the comments in post 38614 and 38641. YOU MADE THE COMMENTS THAT YOU NOW DENY MAKING! STOP PLAYING SILLY GAMES! Robert99

Jo, Are you willing to take the first truth test? It is very unlikely that anyone working on the "grounds" (you presumably mean "Temple Square") or the visitors center in Salt Lake City would be wearing a "uniform of some kind". He would probably be conservatively dressed and wearing a name tag, but that is not a "uniform". Robert99 Jo Weber apparently wrote and inserted the following: I more than anyone here needs resolution and soon! Very tired and I don't know why I drive myself back everynight hoping some thing has happened and then go to bed with all of the qestions driving me insane. I am already crazy, but I need to be set free and someone to help me live what is left of my life with dignity....I just want to be ME and I want to die with MY soul entact. I want to know what if feels like to crawl into bed a normal person and for there to be some holding me before I go. Some one who know that I have done all I can do and that I gave it the best yrs of my life. I tried and I tried and now my life feels so useless because I accomplished NOTHING of what may be the only true story never be told about Weber. person - free of the past. I can answer that one with a resounding YES I will be the first on to take a truth test (make sure Jerry Thomas in NO where around me and that NONE of the questions are from him. That man had on some type of uniform - perhaps a music director's or band director or even a choir leader. The case appears to be one that would carry a musical instrument.

Jo, Are you willing to take the first truth test? It is very unlikely that anyone working on the "grounds" (you presumably mean "Temple Square") or the visitors center in Salt Lake City would be wearing a "uniform of some kind". He would probably be conservatively dressed and wearing a name tag, but that is not a "uniform". Robert99

Jo, Hold your horses right here! I think you misunderstood what the "nun" said to you. Even Catholic "nuns" would probably refer to themselves as "Sister" so-and-so. I have NEVER heard of "nuns" in the LDS Church. In this progressive day and age, the male LDS missionaries are called "Elder" so-and-so and the females missionaries are called "Sister" so-and-so. And to repeat, most of the missionary work in the LDS Church that I have heard about is done by unpaid volunteers. I am not an LDS member myself, but I have had the privilege of knowing a number of very young (early 20s at most) LDS missionaries who did missions around the world. And senior citizen type LDS missionaries have been of great assistance to me in doing genealogical research. If Duane's name was on an LDS "roster" you are presumably suggesting that he was Mormon. I doubt very much if Duane would be allowed to become a member of the LDS Church. You can take my word on that one. Robert99

________________________________________________ Jo, I'm wondering if anyone could forward this picture on to to Clyde Lewis. He has a facebook page, how about sending him the pic there and see what he says? Or if someone has an email address for Clyde, you could attach the pic to an email to him. MeyerLouie To add my two cents worth, I don't know where Jo came up with the "nuns" in Salt Lake City. If Jo meant members of the LDS Church, then they certainly were not "nuns". It is also unlikely that anyone working in the LDS Visitor's Center would be an "employee". They were probably unpaid members of the LDS Church performing a voluntary mission for the Church. And they could be from anywhere on this planet. MeyerLouie gives Jo some good advice about how to approach the problem. I have visited Salt Lake City quite a few times to do genealogical research at the LDS Family History Library there. And in the last 40 years, the LDS Church has embraced computer technology with a passion. So the "social media" on the Internet would be an excellent place to start. Robert99

It's a loaded question, Robert99. And I'm not dodging you on it. But it's difficult to answer because first, no one knows if any of the 66 or so prints actually belongs to the hijacker. Second, the DNA sample itself is suspect. There is much debate about it because of the age of the sample at the time it was taken, that multiple people have handled the tie during the years before DNA came along, and other factors. Outside of the FBI, no one really knows how viable the sample taken is, or what results they were able to obtain from that sample. They can't even tell you for sure it belongs to the hijacker. I've never based the case for Christiansen on DNA, but on other evidence gathered outside of the FBI's investigation. I have always believed that if the case were eventually solved, it would be by witnesses who could fill in the blanks sufficiently to satisfy the FBI that indeed, they had their man. This evidence is important, and cannot be written off with a 'what if'. It needs to be checked. You may be putting the cart before the horse, anyway. The reality is that if the FBI decides to take any action at all on my report, that they would do an investigation based on that report...before moving on to any DNA comparisons. Let me put it this way. If they investigated the witnesses and examined the photos and docs...and found alternate answers to them...and then move on to DNA/print comparisons without a match...then yes, I would accept the results and relegate KC to the list of people eliminated as possibly being Cooper. In fact, they wouldn't even have to do the print comparisons or DNA to satisfy me. Let's face it, if I'm wrong on the evidence regarding Kenny, then I have no case at all. Blevins, I don't know where you are coming from or where you are going, but I did not ask any of the things as you claim above. Maybe Georger is right about your FBI connection. Robert99

Blevins, If you know an "ordinary Piper Cub Only jockey", please have him get in touch with me. I've always wanted to meet one. It would fulfill a dream of mine. Robert99

Since the link in your original post did not appear to have any connection with your following commentary, I didn't bother to see what it was all about. But in Tosaw's book, page 34, the correct identification of the two chase aircraft is given. And this book was written in 1984. Unfortunately, I do NOT understand that Tosaw got it wrong, since in fact he got it right. And I have always highly recommended his book. I do have a copy of it and I have read it. In fact, I would recommend that you secure a copy of it and even read it. You should be able to locate a copy of Tosaw's book by searching online or through Amazon.com (not to be confused with THE Amazon). I do know what an "executive summary" is and the level of knowledge, experience, and intelligence of the people for which it is intended. Alas, my associates and I have had the thankless job of trying to present valid information in a highly condensed manner that they may have a few seconds to glance at before their schedule demands that they get out to the golf course for lunch, golf, and an afternoon of cocktails. You imply that you are an "executive", so I trust that you understand the difficulties involved in the above situation. Since Tosaw's book is correct and I don't have to disregard it, I haven't seen any blowback in this direction. But what is that blowing in your direction? Don't take this as a putdown, but you REALLY do need to learn to read. Most people that I am acquainted with find that the ability to read is very helpful in their lives. And perhaps Blevins or Jo Weber could help with any ego problems you might have. Again, this is not a putdown, but just a sincere effort to help you understand things better. Robert99

Farflung, I have obviously underestimated your vast research skills. You state above that "F-16s followed flight 305". My memory is not as good as it used to be, but as I recall it the hijacking took place on November 24, 1971. The YF-16s (two were built) were designed and built after the 1973 Arab-Israeli War. Two YF-17s were also designed and built. Then a fly-off was held between the two designs. And the YF-16 won. But the YF-17 was picked up by the Navy, modified to some degree, and then became known to history as the F-18. Following the award of a production contract for the F-16, five pre-production aircraft were built and they had AF 75-XXXX numbers. The actual production F-16s had AF 78-XXXX and later numbers. But to repeat, my memory is not the best. So could you please remind me how the F-16s managed to chase the hijacked airliner two years before they were even designed? I will defer to your expertise in this matter since I understand that you were an advisor to the Wright Brothers and helped them during their difficult early years. Robert99

[reply ________________________________________________ Not a NWA employee or Boeing employee then...ML __________________________________________________ My guess is that Cooper was definitely NOT a current or former NWA employee. There is a reasonable possibility that he was a FORMER Boeing employee and not a current one at the time of the hijacking. Assuming you were living in the Seattle area in the late 1960s and early 1970, cancellations and cutbacks in such programs as the SST forced Boeing to lay off tens of thousands of employees. Cooper could have been one of them. At the same time, aircraft companies in the Los Angeles area were also forced to make massive lay offs. There was plenty of aviation talent on the west coast that was unemployed and that included air crews, manufacturing personnel, and everyone in between. Why did Cooper select Portland as the place to start the hijacking? In my opinion, he did so because he was NOT from Portland. If you are going to rob a bank, would you select one two blocks from your house or would you go to another town or even state? You would probably select a bank quite a distance from your house with the hope that no one would have ever seen you before. My guess is that Cooper had already determined by the time he was seated on the airliner that he had not seen any of the people on the aircraft before. If he saw anyone that he even remotely knew, he would never have initiated the hijacking but would have just flown on to Seattle, gotten off the plane, gone home and made plans to try somewhere else in the future. The above also suggests that Cooper had never flown NWA before. Robert99

Blevins, What is the basis for the above conclusion about Cooper having previous jump experience? As Amazon and others have previously pointed out, plenty of people made their first jump under far worse conditions during WW2 and a high percentage of them survived. Robert99

Blevins, Why don't you explain how the bank manager would overcome the time lock matter to get into the vault? Some of Duane Weber's more industrious associates would probably be interested. Robert99

All I did was ask for the source of the silly claims you made. It's your turn to put up or shut up. Robert99

Jo, The above statements apply to you as well. Robert99

I would suggest that you make some effort to stick to "facts" yourself. Your idiotic claim that I have spent "years" studying parachuting from 727s, or any other aircraft for that matter, is pure bullshit. I have never made any such claims. Since you do not have any available sources for your own claims means, by your own statement, that they came from the back of horses. I don't know how you do it, but your combination of bulls and horses is an odd one. Robert99

Experience in skydiving - Probably not skydiving but experience in a parachute wearing capacity maybe as a crew member. Experience with 727s - Experience or at least knowledge of 727s is a definite yes. Knowledge of SOP airline in-flight and ground protocol - A definite yes although it may have been military transport type operations. Potential experience in bomb-making or bomb-faking - Not much experience is required on this point but he had enough to get the job done. Only two people saw the "bomb" and I doubt if either had seen dynamite or a bomb before. Knowledge of FBI access to funds (?) - Unknown and Cooper definitely took a gamble on that since the banks in Seattle were going to close about 4:00PM for Thanksgiving and Cooper hijacked the airliner just after 3:00PM. Remember that bank vaults have time locks and Cooper may have come very close to having to wait until Friday morning if he wanted money. Not overly smart . . . - Agree 100 percent. He cut everything real close. How am I doing . . . missing anything? - A number of organizations and people, including myself, believe that Cooper was on the ground and dead within one minute of separating from the aircraft. In short, he cratered. Robert99

The SE Asia video was linked to a post a year or two ago and, while I watched the video several times, I did not record the link. But You Tube is the place to check. In the video, the aft stairs are fully extended. If they were not "locked" down, then they would not stay in that position. If they did, then THAT would be absurd. Longitudinal control power is partially produced by the elevators on the trailing edge of the horizontal stabilizer. PLUS, as you should be aware, the horizontal stabilizer itself can be rotated around an axis that is just forward of the leading edge of the elevators. The leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer can be moved down a very significant distance. This very act dramatically increases the nose-up control power. Static line jumps from the 727 aft stairs were probably done at an airspeed of about 140 or 150 knots and at relatively low altitudes above sea level, which is about the same speed as is used in such jumps from the C-130 and C-141. The flight test program that Boeing did on the SE Asia 727s undoubtedly included validation of controllability under the conditions that were expected to be enountered during their operational use. Robert99

It is agreed that weather in itself was not an issue on the night of the hijacking. But visibility downward through an overcast and several cloud layers is another matter. Robert99

I wonder if Himmelsbach has any proof of that whatsoever. I have flown in and around the Hillsborough/Vancouver/Scappoose area in some nasty nasty scary soup. Flying in and out of Scappoose we could still see the lights of the surrounding towns like Woodland or St Helens or Vancouver thru the clouds and rain. Himmelsbach was apparently describing conversations that he had with the pilots. I'll grant that if you were below the bottom cloud layer you would have relatively good visibility on the night of the hijacking. Portland International was reporting 10 miles visibility which is a rather "standard" visibility. It could have been more. But the airliner was at 10,000 feet and had an overcast (or "undercast" if you insist) below it plus two or three more cloud layers below that. Even at the age of 16, and with my X-ray eyes, I would have had trouble seeing through that. Robert99

ML writes: I checked out the simulation of the flight, and I've talked to a couple of folks. From what I've gathered, it seems that even on a cloudy, rainy, stormy night, you can still make out the city lights -- Vancouver, Battleground, even Camas. R99 replies: George Nuttall's book, page 95, quotes Himmelsbach as saying that, "There was a cloud cover below them when they passed over Vancouver that was so thick they couldn't see landmarks or even the glow of city lights." ML writes: Why do I say this? Because he was cool as a cucumber -- nerves of steel. He didn't get rattled -- about anything -- at this time. In addition, he didn't seem stressed, even in the least, about the upcoming jump nor about the aft stairs problem. R99 replies: Richard Tosaw's book, page 29, states that when Tina told Cooper about the delay in refueling, "He exploded. He yelled and swore that this was impossible - it was a stall and he was going to blow up the plane. During his hysteria, he kept hitting his fist against his hand and in his rage Tina held her breath in fear that he might explode the bomb. He was screaming that refueling a 727 shouldn't take more than 20 minutes and that a frozen nozzle in Seattle was ridiculous. He opened his briefcase and Tina saw the red sticks and battery as he grabbed hold of the wire while he was shouting." ML writes: The pilot said the plane could not take off with the aft stairs down. No problem, he calmly instructed the pilots to go ahead and take off with the aft stairs up -- like it was no big deal. R99 replies: From Tosaw, page 28, Cooper was told that it would not be safe for the aircraft to take off with the staircase down. "When Cooper was told this he told Tina that it was safe but that he wasn't going to argue the point and would lower the staircase later." Among other things, Tina stated that Cooper put on the back pack parachute like he had previous experience doing so. During the hijacking, Cooper demonstrated that he had general knowledge of the 727. He had specific knowledge about the flap setting, airspeed, and altitude that he specified. Cooper was also knew that the aft stairs could be lowered in flight. That knowledge was relatively closely held at that time. Cooper did have some trouble with lowering the stairs. This may mean nothing more than that the control panel for the aft stairs may not have been familiar to him. If the aft stairs are going to be lowered routinely, they would probably have a different control panel with more capabilities. In addition, the stairs themselves would probably be modified from the commercial airliner version. Anyone seeing the video of static line parachute jumps from the aft stairs of 727s, reportedly made in SE Asia, should note that the stairs were "locked" down. They did not rebound or otherwise move upward between jumpers. All of the above suggests that Cooper had some experience with or knowledge of the SE Asia 727 operations. As I have stated a number of times before, Cooper was probably a former US Government employee (whether military or civilian) or had worked for a US Government contractor. Robert99

Replies to your questions: Q2: Why? The short answer is that it was really stupid, but also see the answer to Q4. However, it is possible that the late afternoon before Thanksgiving Day was the ideal time (at least in Cooper's mind) for the hijacking due to quite a reduction in governmental activities on Thanksgiving Day. Also, that time frame may have been the best fit for him in some manner. Q2: I personally haven't seen anything that stated Cooper was the last person to buy a ticket for the flight. But he is reported to have been the last person to board the aircraft, which the passengers did through the aft stairs. And he then took a seat in the last row on the right side of the cabin. While waiting to board, Cooper spent some time in the general area of the other Portland boarders and could have checked them out and made sure he didn't know any of them. Any thru passengers and the cabin crew could be easily checked out in the few minutes it took to board. Cooper was apparently satisfied that he didn't know any of these people and he then passed the hijacking note to a flight attendant jut as the airplane was taking off. Q4: Cooper specified that the money be ready at a time that was well past sunset. Adding in the cloudy day, Cooper knew that it would be absolutely dark when he jumped. If Cooper had a jump point in mind, it was probably very close to Seattle and maybe in the Fort Lewis/McChord AFB area. The aircraft was above an overcast before Cooper managed to get the aft stairs unlocked. That means he could not see a jump point in the first place and did not have a means to determine his location with any accuracy. So he had to jump "blind". Robert99 He also picked a flight that had only been added at the end of August - And that means that his planning, or at least the final planning, for the hijacking had to be made between the end of August and Thanksgiving Eve (November 24th). A slightly less than three months period. Robert99

Replies to your questions: Q2: Why? The short answer is that it was really stupid, but also see the answer to Q4. However, it is possible that the late afternoon before Thanksgiving Day was the ideal time (at least in Cooper's mind) for the hijacking due to quite a reduction in governmental activities on Thanksgiving Day. Also, that time frame may have been the best fit for him in some manner. Q2: I personally haven't seen anything that stated Cooper was the last person to buy a ticket for the flight. But he is reported to have been the last person to board the aircraft, which the passengers did through the aft stairs. And he then took a seat in the last row on the right side of the cabin. While waiting to board, Cooper spent some time in the general area of the other Portland boarders and could have checked them out and made sure he didn't know any of them. Any thru passengers and the cabin crew could be easily checked out in the few minutes it took to board. Cooper was apparently satisfied that he didn't know any of these people and he then passed the hijacking note to a flight attendant jut as the airplane was taking off. Q4: Cooper specified that the money be ready at a time that was well past sunset. Adding in the cloudy day, Cooper knew that it would be absolutely dark when he jumped. If Cooper had a jump point in mind, it was probably very close to Seattle and maybe in the Fort Lewis/McChord AFB area. The aircraft was above an overcast before Cooper managed to get the aft stairs unlocked. That means he could not see a jump point in the first place and did not have a means to determine his location with any accuracy. So he had to jump "blind". Robert99

Jo, Exactly how did you find out about this if "these individuals could NOT and still cannot talk about what they did"? Obviously, they DID talk and you have now also talked so it is all common knowledge. Or at least part of it. But your being "told things I am not suppose to know", even if it is true, still doesn't mean that Duane Weber was D.B. Cooper. Robert99