smokin99

Come on - anyone that's been on the forum or interested in DB Cooper knows the presumed jump time, and where on the map they "might" have been. You're regurgitating stuff that's been discussed for years about the possible drop zone, and then have this caveat about trusting the FBIs flight path and timeline -- when you constantly deride what the FBI has to say about other things. The whole point of any discussion about a ground search is figuring out the flight path - and with that you can't ignore things that you don't like. As an aside, What I don't understand is why folks think that the original search team was out there scratching their butts. But hey, if you can get it down to 1 square mile, (still a pretty big area btw) by all means get to work on those maps. I agree with Sluggo too, but as with anything, its all about the man in the mirror. As long as this forum has been going, and we can look back to know it's true - no one has been exempt from being boorish or redundant, including Sluggo - who I admire greatly and hope he doesn't take offense. Hell since he won't be back for 18 months he won't even see this so I worry needlessly. No frickin way I'd read back through 18 months worth.

I'm not rejecting the idea at all - just saying that one can't arbitrarily discount one of only two pieces of "confirmed" evidence found on the ground by guessing when it blew out of the plane. Like I've said before - if some enterprising folks can sell Tornado chasing tours, I see no reason why a DB Cooper Caper Adventure Tour wouldn't sell. At the most someone might find something. At the least they get a Northwest hiking vacation. MrShutter can use his simulation machine to map out a grid, the vacationer gets his/her choice of three locations. Include a trip to the tavern and a boat trip past Tena bar - maybe catch a fish or two -- surely there's someone out there that is tired of that same old boring Hawaiian getaway.

The placard's location and its relative position to when the door was opened aside, how would "Occam say" this. Occam's Razor is not an absolute - it merely provides a guideline that, all other things being equal, simple explanations should be looked at before more complex ones. It doesn't say that the simpler explanation is the correct one. i.e, if you hear hoofbeats behind you in South Ga, it's probably horses and not zebras. If, on the other hand you happen to be in Africa, then all bets are off. One could even go as far to say that the simpler explanation for the placard being gone is that someone ripped it off or knocked it off, rather than it blowing away right when the door opened. I don't know the answer and neither do you, but you have arbitrarily decided that this is not to be considered when looking at a search site. Call me confused, but this might be why you won't be asked to lead the expedition.

R99 replies: From the above it might be a good idea for Blevins to look at the data. Something else was found. Can you name it? On the matter of the brief case and the "bomb", of what use were they to Cooper once Tina went to the cockpit? Would "absolutely nothing" be a reasonable answer? RB: Sure. Then where ARE these items? On the matter of drop zones, what is the location of the one you are referring to? Search anywhere you want, but you won't find Cooper without looking at his actual jump point. RB: (Best bet might be to start with the time the crew says the light went off and then back on for the airstairs) Your whole jump zone scenario reminds me of a story from, I think, a book by Carlos Castenada. On the last two or three pages of that book (pages 125-127, I believe), Castenada explains that the characters in his book didn't find the cities of gold, for which they had been searching, because those cities never existed in the first place. Castenada then explains that they DID find a beautiful place to search for their dreams. Dream on. Robert99 Come on, you are cherry-picking. Certain parameters would have to be set to establish any possible LZ's for Cooper. One parameter might be this: The official version of the flight path is correct and the Tina Bar money didn't end up on Tina Bar as a result of the hijacker landing nearby. That's one. Everyone knows they found the money, too in addition to the placard. I didn't mention it because it's off the FBI's flight path. The reason I said 640 acres is 'about' a square mile is because some joker would probably post up that it was actually 640.0001 square miles. That's what people do around here sometimes. I think Carlos Castenada was full of baloney. The three women he shacked up with for years all went missing after he died, (one was later found dead) there's been fights over his will, and at one point he claimed 'shapeshifting' could be acheived through peyote ceremonies somehow...and other things. The guy is a mystery, but I wouldn't quote anything he says as truth. They'll never figure him out, in any case. He's more of a mystery than Cooper, I swear. I just have to lol. First of all, once again, you have hijacked another's ideas ..actually a couple of peoples......and proceed like you just discovered a cure for Herpes. I don't dislike you, nor are you my venom magnet, though I am convinced that you have no shame . Just beats all is what I'm saying. Oh well. Others have mentioned that the best place to start might be where the primary find was found, ...or by extrapolating an area in relation to a probable flight path, what the crew felt and where the placard was found. Then I would thinkg you'd have to add in parachute drift, wind direction, then a lot of what if this and what if that. Hell this is starting to sound real familiar. Get the web site started and the bus cranked for the all inclusive Cooper Caper adventure dig. Second - just an fyi....I believe that "figuring out" the whole Carlos Castenada thing would hardly be possible by reading a bio blurb off of the internet. Takes years of enlightenment and copious quantities of 3M.......(mescaline, marijuana, and mushroom tea).......or so I'm told. I imagine with the drugs he was taking shapeshifting would have been a relatively simple concept.

I know of a few folks who don't think he jumped. A couple of them think he also had accomplices on the plane. I've wondered myself a time or two, but something about getting off in Reno with all his stuff doesn't feel right unless he ditched everything in the air. Even then - wouldn't that be like hurling yourself onto the tarmac out of a car that's going pretty fast? I mean surely he wouldn't have waited until the plane stopped? Definitely would have been a classic case of misdirection, though. He was, after all dressed like a MIB. "Who's he?" "Uh I dunno..he must be the SAC from Portland." but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

In my opinion, Sluggo's site is the place to start. http://n467us.com/. I've read a couple of books, but not Himmelsbach's...who supposedly should have had some inside scoop. Just haven't been willing to pay the bucks. Unfortunately, the books I have read all have slightly different facts regarding the same incident...so who to believe? Regardless, I've been told by several folks who have read all of the books on Cooper that the best two books on the subject are Himmelsbach's "Norjack the investigation of DB Cooper" and Richard Tosaw's "DB Cooper - Dead or Alive". There are a couple of forums in addition to this one, but they too get bogged down and you have to go back through reams of flotsam to get nuggets of real information. I think Sluggo's site has links to other sites. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

To correct above.... MatthewCline did respond to Orange1's November post and there were a couple of followup posts on his post.

Alive, well, and too busy for frequent visits to this thread. I really bit off more than I could chew with the Vogtle 3&4 Project. I'm too old for 70-hr weeks. But, if you make your bed, You have to lay in it! No, not lost intrest in NORJAK, interest is still high. In fact, the direction this forum has taken, definately caused me to be less willing to spend time here. Happy New Year. 'Bama or Notre Dame ? lol...I know you aren't asking me, but here in Ga we say "SEC or whatever-conference-Notre-Dame-is playing-in-this-year"? I have a mixed house myself - half Alabama fan, half GA. Most my GA friends will be rootin for the Crimson Tide..... though there are a few that don't like Alabama more than they don't like Notre Dame.

Ahem.....lol...maybe the good forum participants actually have a life. Just kidding....everyone keep their panties straight..

Or maybe he just lost interest in the forum?

Jo...I hate to tell you, but getting a dead person's SS number is about as easy as searching for "SSDI" or "social security death index". Certain military records with SS numbers are pretty easy to find too. Yep, privacy is fast going the way of the abacus...... or the iphone4 or whatever the hot number was 6 months ago.

There's a newspaper account and FBI file. How would that be urban legend? I think it is likely they saw something but just didn't want to get involved while in the vicinity. I also don't think the escape is why Alcatraz was closed, I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that closure was already in the works...? Even if not, Alcatrez days were numbered. It was just too old, falling apart, and was too expensive to maintain and operate. Alcatraz Closes On March 21, 1963, USP Alcatraz closed after 29 years of operation. It did not close because of the disappearance of Morris and the Anglins (the decision to close the prison was made long before the three disappeared), but because the institution was too expensive to continue operating. An estimated $3-5 million was needed just for restoration and maintenance work to keep the prison open. That figure did not include daily operating costs - Alcatraz was nearly three times more expensive to operate than any other Federal prison (in 1959 the daily per capita cost at Alcatraz was $10.10 compared with $3.00 at USP Atlanta). The major expense was caused by the physical isolation of the island - the exact reason islands have been used as prisons throughout history. This isolation meant that everything (food, supplies, water, fuel...) had to be brought to Alcatraz by boat. For example, the island had no source of fresh water, so nearly one million gallons of water had to be barged to the island each week. The Federal Government found that it was more cost-effective to build a new institution than to keep Alcatraz open. from Here: http://www.bop.gov/about/history/alcatraz.jsp but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

lol....I'll bite....tell us about it. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

There's a newspaper account and FBI file. How would that be urban legend? I think it is likely they saw something but just didn't want to get involved while in the vicinity. I also don't think the escape is why Alcatraz was closed, I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that closure was already in the works...? Even if not, Alcatrez days were numbered. It was just too old, falling apart, and was too expensive to maintain and operate. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Thanks Mr. Shutter. It's a plausible report as to the scant body detail observed. Nothing more than a body with white trousers. What isn't plausible is the no US radio channel story. EVERY commercial ship had the international distress freq of 2182 KHz. Larger ones had in addition another international distress freq of 500 KHz. Their position at the time of the body sighting was within a few miles of USCG radio station NMC at Pt. Reyes which monitored both freqs 24/7/365. Other commercial shore stations such as KLH, KMI and KPH all had receive antennas in that area and all monitored at least 2182. KPH also monitored 500 KHz. I'm not buying the radio story told to the FBI. 377 Sounds fishy, but I imagine they might have thought they would be delayed --- or had other reasons for wanting to stay under the radar and not get involved. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Jo - I wish I had never posted about the Zona tattoo - It was not meant to be taken seriously. Besides...if I'm not mistaken, it was Clarence that had the tattoo, not John. Never mind I see the other 99 has already posted this. I responded before I finished reading the thread. I guess anything is possible in the penal system among frequent flyers, but I seriously doubt that you will be able to tie the Anglins to Duane. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Even if no specific reason was given in the stated instance, the crew asked for a single individual to move to the rear of the aircraft. Since there was no objection, it apparently was single class seating on the specific aircraft. The gross weight of the aircraft remained the same before and after the passenger moved aft. So other things being equal, the only logical reason for the move aft was related to the aircraft CG. If there was another reason, it probably would have been taken care of as the passengers were loading and not after they were already seated. Robert99 Sounded reasonable to me. Thinking about it, she might not have mentioned weight - that might have been part of the "diet working talk". I was about halfway back. It is a smaller jet - a Delta connection flight from Podunk, GA to Atlanta. Anyway - thanks for answering. If we don't ever find DB through this forum, at least we come away with some interesting knowledge on an assortment of subjects.

I guess you can guesstimate the luggage. The people getting off the plane looked like light travelers to me

Rumor has it the FBI is still looking, so who knows... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2158544/50-years-Escape-Alcatraz-prison-break-sisters-inmates-believe-freedom.html I also recall reading an article a couple of years ago that the family still gets occasional calls and visits from FBI...

I guess you can guesstimate the luggage. The people getting off the plane looked like light travelers to me

You know...Robert Blevins is taking the high road and said he is not going to mention the email anymore so you shouldn't either. You might not have been deliberately trying to stir it up, and you can act like you are clueless on this, but It's a simple rule and you know it's true.... You should not be posting insults that one person said about another in a private email. It's just not good karma. eta: lol...okay I see the Blevins high road has already dipped some during the time it took me to post. Whatever. Believe it or not, it's not all about y'all. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Dang you answered part of my question before i got it posted. ETA>>>I realize that luggage and people weight would effect flying - guess my question should be how much does one person affect it - and - would the fact that you might not know how much people weighed or how much luggage, etc was on the flight be a significant factor in the overall project. but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

MrShutter: I know you took into account the amount and weight of fuel, did you make allowances for the other types of weight on the plane (people, luggage, etc.) Or would that amount of weight make any difference? The reason I ask - I was on a flight not too long ago (a connector flight - just one section) and the flight attendant asked for a volunteer in the first four rows to take a seat in the back. Folks in the back joked that their diets were going better than they thought :). Incidentally, there was someone in the first row that was rather large but I don't know if that had anything to do with anything. Wondered about all that ever since - I mean with all the weight on a plane, what effect would moving one average size person to the back have? but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Very nice. So once you get it all mapped out with all the data and have a fair idea of where he jumped (you know.... we don't want much - but by the way what have you done for us lately) we can put together a search mission. Sell tickets. An All inclusive Extreme DB Cooper Search Party Adventure Tour. Kind of like http://www.stormchasing.com/ but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

Lord have mercy. I try to tell my friends about our little slice of Heaven and the weirdness that prevails and they just roll their eyes and laugh. I'm beginning to see their point. This is getting to be like frickin junior high school. I hope the rest of you aren't wondering whether you ever sent Jo a private email venting about another person. We might have to rent the superdome for a mega-whackdown. I'm not defending Cook -- IF he even sent those emails -- we just don't know, do we? Jo has been known to get her posts confused. You know it's true.