georger

Yes the surface of the sand gets hot at TBar - this a is confirmed. But, it is also wet/humid which is not favorable. The clock on those bands is important. Were they new or already old? Using the normal clock there is only so much time for those bands to break down and still be capable of entering a gooey stage ... there is no question the bands on the Ingram money went through a gooey stage somewhere, at some time, somehow. That has to be explained in the money's history probably after the first year after Cooper bailed. I have always assumed whatever process brought the money to TBar it also had to cover the money up from view, due to the very large number of people using that fishing bar every year until someone stumbled on the money (combination of human activity & blind luck).

That is a stubborn problem - thousands of people visited TBar. Not one person found or saw money except for Galen Cook's report he refuses to document. Cook claims his witness found corners of $20 bills just north of the Ingram find several months prior to the Ingram find. If you recall Cook spun this claim into a counterfeiting story! Strange you want strange you get.

Correct but conditions must be dry and hot, at a minimum. I was surprised TK did not include this option in his tests because it was described in the FBI docs we received. Its an import fact about the Cooper money. The money was somewhere during the first year where this phenomenon could happen and did happen. That may not be Tena Bar. Im not exactly happy about that - Im only following the evidence that must be accounted for wherever it leads .

its like a Chaucer steam roller ... Ive noticed that.

I think I will share this for whatever its worth. I have no idea how this will affect the Chaucer-Edwards debate ? There is one money detail that people have apparently overlooked including TK. Pieces of old bands were literally stuck to the fibers of at least one bill. This is documented by both FBI docs and by Pat Ingram personally, in a conversation I had with her years ago. Harold's brother was assigned the task of picking these 'stuck' pieces of bands off. This rubber band condition requires that the bands went through a gooey stage - the melt transition phase. That can only happen if the bands and bills are "dry" and "hot" ... a minimum 68"F for an extended period of time. The bands probably went went through this transition within the first year after the hijacking. The rubber bands are a chemical clock - literally. TK documented rubber band decomposition but he did not document the gooey stage melt transition phase all bands can go through. It was an omission on TK's part. Given that hot-dry conditions are required, this selects against the money being in cold water, on the bottom of the Columbia, and perhaps not at Tena Bar at all. The conditions at Tena Bar may not fulfill the conditions required by what the Ingrams reported they found and did. Pat described her brother-in-law having difficulty picking the stuck bands fragments off the money, and 'in several cases when he 'pulled' a piece of stuck band off it pulled pieces of money paper with them'! There is little doubt in my mind that the bands went through a gooey (melt transition) phase so complete that melted areas of bands stuck to the money paper itself. That cannot happen in a cold-wet environment.

Anyone know where this forum of Edwards is ? A url ? I guess Chaucer and Edwards are working together. Chaucer is trying to move the LZ south to the Columbia, in some serious way .... looking for any excuse ... perhaps to explain the money at Tena Bar. People keep trying to connect the TBar money and the flight path! There is nothing that requires there even is a connection. People are trying to fill this void with - something! If there is no connection then people are wasting their time. Nobody has the faintest idea how the money got to TBar. But, there are few stipulations that must apply, however it happened. These stipulations have to do with the money itself, the condition the money was found in, rubber band chemistry, the alleged fragment field 20ft below the reported Ingram find location, the diatoms Tom found, etc etc etc. If Chaucer is wrong, then this is all a time consuming wild goose chase.

Same here sorry to say. Suspects have become boring and uninteresting. Carr uses the word "actionable". If someone has an "actionable" suspect with finger prints, dna, and Cooper $20s, the parachute, clothes, or other hard evidence .... let us know. May have news about the money find in the coming days. People are discussing it in the background... stay tuned.

Tautology: it is what it is. Brilliant! A Tautology is a repetition of ideas rather than words in order to avoid critical thought and misdirect. A form of subterfuge. Primary tool of the hoser. The simplest correct kind of cat is a cat !

Its quite simple - has nothing to do with competence vs incompetence. Cooper was either nowhere where people looked or he was not identifiable and got overlooked. Could be a combination of both of those. I always go back to the Unabomber and how long it took to connect dots and find Ted. In the end its was Ted's family that brought him to the attention of LE in spite of a massive manhunt. Once he came to the FBI's attention, the dots connected very quickly with 100% certainty. In Ted's own village he was very well known and suspected of crimes. Outside his village he was hardly known at all and forgotten. DB Cooper might have been one of those forgotten people who was never identified. In some small village he may have been well known. Its the same in every venue of discovery including Science and Criminology.

Thanks for the update.

The people who conducted the test flight AND worked with the FBI on the Cooper case. Read every word I posted. A separate group of named people processed the radar data and plotted a flight path: quote: "The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC). The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord Detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES). It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. The FBI was provided a copy of the plotted flight path." As for R99, he has been made aware of this for years and has sat on his ass and done nothing! He prefers his own agenda. Its a total mystery to me how or why WSHM did not develop this further, if they could have. Maybe they were done with their project by the time this information was being developed ? I have no idea ...

I have no idea what Edwards is doing but since most principles are dead, it will be very difficult for him to re-construct the history of how the AF got involved in the Cooper case and who did what, in the period immediately after the hijacking. Im evidently wasting my time trying to communicate a few facts. I have no grande agenda in any of this! Here are a few notes from my log: Who made the flight path ? Based on interviews with Spangler, Johnson, and Saiz. Note 1. H. Earl Milnes (pronounced "milny"), the FBI agent in charge of the northwest region of the US and based in Seattle, contacted the commander of the 62nd Airlift Wing, Military Airlift Cmd (MAC), who suggested the FBI work with "Wally." Wally brought in Capt. Spangler of the 62nd Airlift Wing, and Captain Wilson. M/Sgt David Saiz worked for Spangler. All were based at McChord. The FBI had come to the airforce to find out what they could do to help in the case. The airforce personnel suggested a test flight. The team that did the re-creation flight actually worked together on the Cooper case for a while. They had meetings starting about the 26th of November. The meetings were in offices of the second floor in NWA's air freight terminal (now gone) at the southwest corner of SEATAC (off S. 188th St.). Notre 2. The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Center (DC). The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord Detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES). It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. The FBI was provided a copy of the plotted flight path.

No its not true. Its utter subversive nonsense and R99 knows it is. Who and what Air Force units constructed the flight path and gave it to the FBI has been published here at DZ and at Shutter's site several times over the years. Dr Edwards needs to start reading the thread! That information came directly from Air Force TAG team members after they retired and finally began being interviewed by Hominid and others. This is Old News! If R99 doesnt accept that, that is his problem. BTW: R99 does not speak for the Washington State Historical Society he keeps citing !

FAA and Company rules .... rule in any Incident. There may even be a lifetime restriction, you sign on being hired. Its not unlike noncompete and nondisclosure rules today. 5 year contract restrictions are common. National Security restrictions is whole other level!

Bruce Smith discovered that during an interview with somebody close to the situation ... was an interesting interview. But think about it. Plane with bomb over a populated civilian area ? I wouldnt hesitate to press the button if call on ...

This is why Im always interested in developing NEW information about the case. Time is fleeting, people leaving/dying, etc etc. The flight path is settled except for a few diehards. The money facts are a vast unknown! Cooper's identity unknown. The FBI totally uninterested except for FOIA pages. And many good people have left or died or lost interest. Orange, Smoking 99, Hominid, and a few others that I miss. Edwards - wish he was here to debate ? FJ has become indispensable; credits to him big time! Someone may open some new doors in this case because new doors are definitely there waiting to be opened by somebody! People aren't squabbling like they were ... a little peace and security goes a long way in this case. The whole thing is a crap shoot nobody can predict.

It was an FAA Psychiatrist. Cooper didn't blow up the plane or force crew members to bail with him - did he ? ! The psychiatrist was reading a script. The record of the Cooper Hijacking is like a high school play with every cast member reading their scripts. Various cast members are still reading their scripts to this very day, with the same results. Ckret became a cast member in 2008. The Ingrams became cast members in 1980. Ulis is one of newest cast members. . . . . . the script hasnt changed in decades. As DB Cooper Turns. This is how it appears to a social psychologist. One interplay of stories and scripts occurs between the Ingrams and the FBI just after the Ingrams appear with FBI agents at the Portland news conference, 1980. After the event a member of the Ingram family calls the FBI and tells them a conflicting version of the money find story the Ingrams have given. She places the money find location closer to the river, 20 ft closer, and with a different series of events. It may be this is the same area where Schreuder etal found their fragment field. But it does not appear that any 302s released to date have documented this story or embellished the full facts. Lots of scripts being read and played out in the DB Cooper case. That is a fact.

Rubber bands belong to a class of materials known as elastomers. Elastomers comprise “coiled up flexible polymers that are 'crosslinked' by chemical molecules, chiefly sulfur." Because of these polymers and their chemical bonds, a rubber band behaves as an “entropic spring,” meaning that it is “happiest” — or most stable — when at rest. Unlike a paper clip or staple, a rubber band comprises material that automatically returns to its original shape after being deformed. When rubber bands stretch or are heated by sunlight, the polymers contract, which makes them less flexible and more brittle. Stretching a rubber band induces "strain crystallization," of its latex polymers, strains its sulfur bonds. Therefore, simply using a rubber band eventually causes it to reach its 'melt transition phase' followed by crystallization, then becomes brittle before turning to dust. https://ourpastimes.com/facts-7313310-do-rubber-bands-break-old-.html The Ingram bands had completed their full chemical life cycle. ' ... the boy turned up three bundles of money wrapped with rubber bands, which was a short distance below the surface of the sand. The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling. They took the money home where they showed it to INGRAMs brother-in-law, who took the rest of the rubber bands off and was going to dry out the money and try to reclaim it. They had no idea at this time where the money had come from. ' No paper straps were seen or encountered.

Federal Reserve Services re- bank strap regulations: https://www.frbservices.org/resources/financial-services/cash/depositing-ordering/visual-reference-guide.html Were money straps thinner in the 60s/70s than they are today ? See previous posts at DZ about how the money for Cooper was prepared; stressed the time factor involved and security concerns. Ckret posted about this topic. Now we add bank straps also applied ! Note the Fed Reserve stipulation that straps must not interfere with any rubber bands also being applied. So far as I know the world has yet to identified one piece of a rubber band from the Ingram find. Tom Kaye looked but could find none, as I recall. Maybe rubber bands were just assumed but never used either? Can anyone show us a rubber band fragment today? What was Tina referring to when she referred to a "bundle" but also said "bank type bands" ? The only way to find out is to ask her and that has not happened since the hijacking happened! Maybe it's time to finally ask her ?

Well it might make a difference. Keep in mind we are now assuming FJ is right - paper straps, without any confirmation of that. Do we just continue on the assumption FJ is right, to keep him happy and tranquil? And that Ckret is wrong. FJ right. Ckret wrong! Headline in the Oregonian tomorrow!! Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her! Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect. In a similar vein Mucklow recalls that at one time during the flight the hijacker had pulled some single bills from his pocket (change from a $20 he was given earlier for a drink he had purchased) and attempted to (give the bills back) to tip the girls on the crew. (He was told then they could not accept tips). So again, they declined in compliance with company policy. took out one package of the money, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her! No mention of paper straps there. Hmmmmmmmm. How did he get through the paper straps to "one bundle" without Tina seeing it and remembering? But when Tina utters the words 'bank type bands' - FJ uses that to indicate "straps of money and paper straps, and rubber bands "! Tina also refers to the money as "bundles" in another passage. So, straps of money because H said that, paper straps because FJ says that, rubber bands because people saw that, and bundles of money because several people and FJ said that, and Kraft paper ... and a partridge in a pear tree. Ive been through this debate before (with Carr and Ingram) and it took a week + to resolve. I wonder what Tom Kaye will say .......... in 2054! Will Georger dissolve into jello waiting ? Extremism is as Extremism does.

I saw it as I calculated it but posted it anyway - humor - I have no control over people's reactions. I just knew it would get a reaction. smile.

Adding money bands to the money equation produces some notable results! Everyone including Tom Kaye may have to go back to the drawing board. Let's do some basic math. $200,000 grouped by 100 bill PACKETS, = 100 packets each with a "bank type money band" = strap. So says Tina and H etal according to FJ. FlyJack may want to issue some amendments to this formula ? FJ notes these straps comply with Federal Reserve and ABA standards as to size, kraft paper?, and weight. Those numbers are: Standard size (7.75 x 1.25 In) at 100 g/sqm each. Total amount of kraft paper in the the bag with the money is: 6.7 Square Feet of Kraft paper at 22.046 lbs of money straps alone in addition to the weight of the money! Conclusions: we now have to recalculate the weight of the money bag ? Tom Kaye must go back to the drawing board. This affects conclusions about the 305 Flight Test. etc etc etc etc ... all because of Kraft papere money straps left out of people's original equations! We must add 6.7 Square Feet and 22 lbs of Kraft paper to the environment of the money bag and the natural physics of that environment .... and a whole lot of people may now have egg on their faces due to incompetence failing to Kraft paper money straps which FJ insists were on the DB Cooper money bundles ! But math does not lie in any event.

Brown or white? Contact glue or lickable? Any lettering on the straps - which bank? How many straps used on the $200k ? And did Cooper pack money or newspapers as insulation inside his cloths before jumping? What type and brand of underwear?

No histrionics - just want the facts for a change. You dont really know anything about "Federal Reserve approved money straps" but that doesnt prevent you from telling us all about them! Dissolve in 6 months ? Paper disintegrates within three months? Are paper not same as currency. But you arent sure about the glue ... Im not going to waste people's time reciting what three paper chemists familiar with the Cooper case said today. We dont need facts in the Cooper case. You should open a lab and compete with these paper chemists: SGS Integrated Paper Services https://ipstesting.com/ Tell us all about those straps, FJ. You know more about the DB Cooper money than the Ingrams, Tom Kaye, the FBI, and everyone else all put together! Who dares compete! This is hopeless. Isnt it!

Here we go again! Bank currency straps designed to last only 6 months defeats the purpose of having them, in the first place. Is there a paper chemist here who can shed light on this ? Give us some facts for a change!