georger

The plastic boxes are probably debris from the evidence folders. Too small to be "fragments" collected at Tena Bar. Could still be important forensically. Brian's bills were given to him in the same FBI evidence folders (shown below with red tape) and Brian reported his folders were full of similar tiny money dust and debris (from prior handling ?). I told him to preserve that debris because it could be important evidence. Who knows what he did ...

Fact. On Tom's first original site, I am listed first on his credits page on the back page. Can I please get back to Cooper ?? Thanks.

Tom and I are smiling about it. It appears to me that Carr was not happy having to answer any questions with the interviewer. We all know the facts. It is possible so much time has passed since those years that Carr may have forgotten .... once Tom and his team got going and I dropped out I had no further contact with Larry Carr. I had contact with Curtis however .... I think its funny that R99 is trying to make something of this. The fact is Tom and I are laughing! It's hilarious!!!!!!!!! But it diverts away from Cooper discussion and that I dont like. Larry still says he considers Cooper a 'no pull' ... Smith should have asked WHY!? Thats the kind of information we need. Another opportunity lost. Time really does take away people's memories of the case. The public seems to forget that. I could give examples Im working with right now, where people who worked on the case are forgetting basic facts .... like directions at Tena Bar. Where the digging started and where it stopped! Then we laugh and agents apologize for making common mistakes. Im tolerant and its all good fun so it usually works out. All in a day's work on htis case. Most of us know this and take it one day at a time.

No. Its Carr telling Smith to gfy 'Im not going to tell you a damned thing, about anything'. Why dont you quit while you're behind! You are free to contact TK at any time, wiseguy.

As if things cant get any stranger ... read this exchange over at Shutter's forum today: R99: First, I can also state that (Georger) told me around 2009/2010 that he was the one who recommended that the FBI set up the Citizens Sleuths and contact Tom Kaye. Carr obviously disagrees with Georger's claim. Bruce Smith: R99, thanks for corroborating what Georger told me about the Citizen Sleuths. R99's point of course is Georger's credibility. Never mind R99's credibility! Hey guys! Why not ask Tom Kaye - duhhhhhhhhhhh. Before jumping to your mendacity ? You can read Smith's amazing interview of Carr here: https://themountainnewswa.net/2022/07/23/db-cooper-an-interview-with-former-case-agent-larry-carr/ This is priceless - hilarious! What goes around comes around? All I can say is: Thank you Larry Carr ! Please return to scheduled programming. Thank you.

That has been Schreuder's and other agents position all along. I wonder how Geof Gray missed this - he apparently never talked to the agents who were there ? DS told Bruce there were 'thousands' of fragments. Bruce minimized it saying how many ever frags there were they were all confined to the area around the Ingram find and on the surface. TK has always been reluctant to confirm there were any actual fragments of any important nature? Ulis says the few frags there were were brought on the soles of people's shoes to holes 3ft deep! ...................... the irony of all of this for me is: dredging has always been the most elegant solution and Dorwin has always favored the theory based on what he and others found and saw with their own two eyes. ("we left thousands of chopped up fragments of money in the sand there ... etc etc etc.) ! Its simple. Direct 1:1 causation. I have said for decades, the real problem is: how in blazes did the money bag get in the bottom spoils to begin with to be dredged up accidentally later. All of that said, I dont expect anyone will change their positions on this. I expect the debate to plod along forever. And, there are a few people who still are convinced there is more to be found at Tina Bar - a few still search there from time to time. What I miss is that Palmer didnt acknowledge and deal with the issue of fragments better. Had he done that the issue could have been settled clear back in 1980 and we might not be having these discussions at all. I firmly believe that and so do the agents I speak with. It is what it is, in any event. How many agents worked at the dig? 12-16 or more? Dorwin was just the one we cite today. There were others who had opinions based on what they saw firsthand. Nobody ever polled these men and women, to get a consensus after the fact.

Looks like you have identified a rigging option not previously identified by anyone else to date, including 377 and Bruce Smith. People have been focused on D rings or lack of them in the past. It would be interesting to know if Cooper made use this option, or even saw it, but how will we ever know? ........ damned good work Dudeman! BTW your question about moving air and thermometers has an easy answer. Im sure you know the answer! Funny .... add water and evaporation to the problem. I love basic science.. thanks for the entertainment !!

Are there photos to confirm this? DS says he talked to a 'dredge guy' in 79 who reported materials were pumped 'on the area of the Ingram find' during the process of pumping and moving the tube to the northern spoil pile seen in the official 79 photo. This puts dredging material directly on or in the area of the Ingram find. DS told me this explained the fragment field being found. DS says he thought the Ingram find and the deep fragment 'field' found had all been set there prior to the pumping at the large dump seen at the north location, as the tube was moved. DS says the Ulis claim that only a few fragments were found is untrue, and his idea that fragments were transported on the bottoms of shoes by workers digging is pure fantasy untrue. Dorwin says he told Bruce Smith there were 'thousands' of "chopped" money fragments left in the sand, occupying a roughly fan shaped area down to 20 ft above the water line in the sand from 8" to 2-3 feet deep and that it was his opinion the Ingram find and the fragment field were connected to a single event of dredge pumping, 'as the tube was moved from the general area of the Ingram find south to the large spoil pile seen in the 1979 photo. All of this is the reason DS supports the dredging theory. He says it was impossible to collected all of the chopped pieces of money found in the sand.

Thats interesting. There is more - later.

So, are you saying Cooper had rigging options not previously identified by anyone to date, based on a new discovery about Hayden's pilot rigs ? Does that place Cooper in a new category in terms of experience-training ? Does anyone known how he actually rigged the chute, money container, etc ... isnt this a little like predicting the weather ?

Ulis has no idea what he is doing. He doesn't care! His cult is in dire need of new material - stay tuned. Particles: central question. Are ALL of the partials from some process, like machining, vs production,ie creation? TK alludes to machining but stops short of saying all of the partials were produced during a machining process ? The process that produced these particles would be a good starting point for anyone trying to trace a location/company/individual. This whole issue is a rabbit hole... a needle floating somewhere in the universe. Ulis needs to stop talking and start listening!

Tom Kaye from the DB Cooper Facebook page: “All, let's clear some things up. The SEM that identified the particles did so in a completely automated fashion. It is normally refined for gunshot residue analysis and I am pretty sure they did not focus on precise ID of metals. Most of the particles are so small that the electron beam goes right through them and can get a signal from something else. In this case the carbon tabs had nickel wires in them so ANYTHING with nickel should be suspect. I did not know they had nickel wires in them and they are the only brand that does so it was unexpected. I bought them because they were made particularly smooth so small particles would stand out. The instrument appears to just bin everything into the closest match it can find, so I would expect lots of things end up in a particular bin like "400 SS" if the elements are even close. If you want better, more accurate analysis then look at my tree of hand examined particles on the website. Carbon was not included because all the particles are stuck to a carbon sticky tab. Finally we DID look at a control tie worn for 9 years at Boeing from the 70-80's. It was really clean and didn't even have particles on it that the owner said it should have. I don't like the Boeing connection but the vortex keeps coming back to it. Another unfortunately ugly thing to consider is that these may be grinding particles from plated metals. If that were the case then we would see wild mixes of crazy things that make no sense. A ground off fleck could have 80% steel in one particle and 80% chromium in the next from the same piece of chrome plated steel. Hope this helps.” TK *** credit to Chaucer for posting this vital message from TK at the private-closed Ulis Facebook page. I wish Tom was here!! Better late than never...

Ulis spun out of orbit quickly and may hang around making noise, but he is essentially a failed vendor, and will never have any lasting value. Ulis needs to find a new game he can tinker with in hope of making $$$$$$$$$ which is his goal. I leave him alone because I dont speak "Spinach" and I shy away from total Chaos. Movements only have so much life in the real world.

new DNA from the tie, ? I just dont know. Nobody can know. Would have to have the tie and a lab to know, to even make an estimate after a few tests. My suspicion is multiple samples are required to evaluate that question. But there is nothing without trying! Picking a good lab and good people is crucial imho.

Chaucer yes - I saw your post about money floating/sinking at the other forum. I think you raise some important issues and will get back to this when I can - like everyone right now Im struggling with the heat wave and social issues. In the meantime: did the bound bundles of bills FAN OUT? How if they are contained in close quarters, in a bank bag! No room to fan out so that premise is questionable right at the git-go. In addition, there are other facts about the money find excavation that have been dismissed by Ulis, Smith, etal ... which is a shame. DS is curious why this misinterpretation or lack of understanding of the excavation ever happened, not only in his day, but now. Myth vs facts. More later ....

Of no value "then". This is why I keep saying elements of this case need to be revisited with modern technology. Turn the case over to archaeologists if nothing else! The FBI has turned it over to media types - why not scientists! ? Very clearly some in the FBI dont like or trust scientists either! The original proposal to give the case to the Smithsonian sounds better every day ... People with a different bias, for a change! Labs and Lab people (including agents) were limited 'in the day' in what they could do and in what they were allowed to do!

Thanks --- good memory! Going to Mexico City - - or any place in Mexico - - nonstop - - gear down - - flaps down - - don’t go over 10,000 feet altitude - - all cabin lights out - - do not again land in the United States for fuel or any other reason - - no one is to come behind the first class section.”

what passages say that? Crew interviews or Flight comm Transcript?

when did he request lights out 'in the rear compartment' ? passage in what document?

This is 2022. You have the wrong year! In the right decade!! Close but no ceegar.

No Country For Old Men suggests one possible scenario - its a gap that is never going to be filled without solid forensic evidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Country_for_Old_Men Cooper needed a way out of the State of Washington with the money - what did he do - where did he go ? We think the Heisson Store robbery is off the table so Cooper is taking some other path ... to where/how ... or he is in fact dead and the money is sitting somewhere ? In their last iteration, R99 and Elvis sold the idea that Cooper's body and the money are sitting somewhere "uphill" of the Ingram find location - which is a little like sending a can of mush to the starving ... the starving gullible will eat anything! That didn't convince Josh Gates ...

You have a crystal ball ? What's your investment and why! ?

Dorwin vs Rackstraw: Schreuder backs Rackstraw? That's news to me! What was left on the cutting room floor - what was edited out ? And Dorwin says he is NOT one of Colbert's '40 experts'. Dorwin has never claimed that! Dorwin Schreuder does not need to hang his hat on Colbert's circus wagon. It's absurd. Dorwin was interviewed for 3 1/2 hours. It took less time for the Titanic to sink after hitting an iceberg! This is just one example why the media and producers will never solve the DB Cooper case.

enjoyed in any event! smile...

Some of the people TC is claiming as part of his 40 person team, are not. They are simply individuals TC has talked to then claimed as part of his team. TC's account of the money find is "impossible", to quote one person TC is claiming as part of this team ... in fact there have always been complaints about how researchers Smith, Cook, Ulis etal have characterised and made claims about the money find and the excavation at Tena Bar. Several are looking for a way to set this straight . . . these people feel that important evidence has been sidetracked and missrepresented by several Cooper authors ... BTW the name is Geoffrey Gray not Geff Grey, as one suspect pusher is calling him over at the other forum.