georger

Palmer says some very strange things in his report and one glaring omission in his tutorial about how beaches work. He doesnt say one word about erosion. And " He also added that he felt certain that the money did not work its way up through the post dredging sand to the upper layer." In other words, erosion can affect everything else on a beach but not MONEY! Especially not Cooper money!

Look at 1952-1960: In 1960 Tena Bar as we know it didn;t even exist! The whole history of Tena Bar is a history of reclamation - its very existence is reclamation which means: DREDGING BOTTOM SPOILS. So Palmer's strata are what happens in between events of reclamation one after the other, and sands eroding and moving around in a waterway! Multiple bottom spoil layers interspersed with inter-reclamation natural deposits and removals of river sand! Palmer was a "dandy" who gave us no working model of Tena Bar! He took no core samples, he did no chemistry, he simply appealed to his lofty credentials asking all agents to believe him because he was 'the biggest geologist dog in the yard since 1952', whoopie! Due to Mr Palmer we dont know much more than when we started and we may even know less. Disregard the whole Palmer Report, socalled. What artifacts would dredging that encounters a bag of money leave? Thousands of small pieces of cut money spread over an area mixed in through multiple strata layers. A few cut-chopped bundles of money that escaped. As time goes on erosion starts to move everything back toward the river and could leave the less mobile bundles of money at a higher elevation joined with a newer upper active layer where the Ingram bundles were found - until at length everything erodes and goes back into the river. And that is exactly what DS thinks he found at Tena Bar. After reclamation stops the whole beachhead erodes and disappears.

Likewise, are all bottom spoils alike, over time? Same chemistry? Clay lump? USGS chemist told me the area where the 74 spoils were collected was known to be 'manganese rich'. He asked: "Does manganese flash on the money?" He said bottom spoils in different areas differ in chemistry - that these bottom spoils have to be routinely tested because of Hanford and other issues. Palmer doesn't tell us anything about what bottom spoils should look like or how they differ. Likewise, how can money be in the top surface layer but also deeper in the sand closer to the water's edge? Palmer has no explanation or gave one. Palmer 'looks like' a professional geologist in his dress and his pipe for the camera, but he isnt communicating like one! BTW, it was Schreuder's idea to treat the dig like an archaeologist would and do screening - that wasn't Palmer's idea. Schreuder and Palmer weren't even there at the same time. They never communicated.

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I agree - but we need a loot more specifics. A lot more SPECIFICS .... be my guest! Anything you can document will be a breakthrough.

Inevitably, the same question always comes up when trying to discuss the Palmer Report and the Ingram Find at Tena Bar. Q: If the 1974 dredging spoils were dumped at two different locations on the Tena Bar side, neither of which is the Ingram location, how did Palmer find 1974 dredging spoils at the Ingram site, at all! ? It's a contradiction. Palmer identifies his "clay lump layer" found at the Ingram site, and at a second trench site south of the Ingram site, as being the 1974 dredging spoils layer. But, if no spoils were even dumped at those locations in 1974, so what is Palmer talking about? His report doesn't even try to resolve that basic contradiction. Instead of resolving that contradiction, Palmer avoids the issue completely by saying: 'The Ingram find was in the upper active layer, in any event - and the fragments found also.' Maybe the Ingram find got to it's location on the bottom of somebody's shoes, as per the Ulis explanation! Never mind people's shoes. The problem with the money find is a lack of credible people!

A movie about Tina Mucklow is being made. Somebody should ask Tina how the description for Cooper was put together - specifically who contributed LATIN to the description with enough force that Latin wound up in every FBI description - was it Flo or Tina, or both, and if it was Flo did Tina agree or disagree with that? Does Tina think Cooper could have been a Native American as in, 'DB Cooper had no facial hair like European's do' ? ........ which goes to genetics. Maybe the Producer can ask Tina for this upcoming documentary? I hope so! In fact, would a physical anthropologist see anything, have any reaction, to the physical types portrayed in the Cooper sketches especially regarding racial-ethinic types ? Everyone in the human population fits somewhere into some racial-ethnic group or model of features. DB Cooper was no exception.

What's you point if there is one ? You were surprised when Cooper hadn't been caught, the next day. In the State of Washington. In the first search zone ? ...

Im going to post this once and never again for all time. brucesmith49 says: July 29, 2022 at 6:37 am Georger is a long-time DB Cooper researcher and commentator at the old and new DropZone, and the DB Cooper Forum. His assistance to me in my research and writing has been critically important. Georger replies - Thanks Bruce. Georger knew Tom Kaye in scientific and university circles before and independent of any Cooper related activity. At length, G recalls he sent Ckret a PM at Dropzone suggesting lab work might shed new light on the money's history. Time and TK's work has proven G correct. G talked to TK privately. G put TK and Ckret together and helped launch a citizen based DBCooper research team, the socalled Citizen Sleuths. G posted about these activities at DZ and informed several people including Robert Nicholson, Bruce Smith, and Wayne Walker (Sluggo) about what was going to happen. The rest is history. At length Geof Gray revealed Georger's identity in his book, for personal reasons. This stopped Georger and others from doing more. Georger has always suggested that some entity like the Smithsonian should take up the DB Cooper case, because people at the Smithsonian have the capability and capacity to handle a 'special' historical project of this kind, where both historical and scientific issues are of critical importance and should be preserved for posterity.

Thanks - valuable post! Carr focuses on McCoy bringing his own gear which Carr thinks is a key sign of a professionalism. Hmmm. Cooper brought a bomb. By coincidence Tina's father was an electrician! Tina somehow gives a detailed statement of the bomb's construction including (if you can believe this!) red wire is attached to... black wire is attached to... item by item! So I showed her statement to three retired military ordinance guys and they said: 'The wiring sounds right...' One of the guys constructed a Cooper bomb using Tin's description. We took it to an ordinance site. It blew up! I wish I had video taped it. We had a lot of fun! Professionalism is as professionalism does ? The bomb got everyone's attention and full compliance.

So it appears - that hasnt escaped me. The acquisition of the chutes and certification of the chutes for Cooper was sloppy after the Air Force denied using their chutes. Cooper accepted them without knowing their provenance! Carr claims this indicates Cooper was a novice or worse as compared with a real professional - McCoy. Cooper was betting his life on a crap shoot, says Carr? Is that really true and a correct evaluation of Cooper? I dont think that is entirely correct ? Cooper did inspect the chutes - true or false ? He chose to go ahead without the back pack for the money ... he may have had a schedule that he was trying to keep? He was already late and upset about that trying to adapt ... Im not sure I buy some of Carr's assumptions/conclusions/methods. I dont like Personality Cults even in today's media world. I wonder if modern methods would have pulled usable finger prints off those butts along with serology? Maybe dna?

Unless I am missing something - Cossey was the official packer-rigger of ALL of the chutes as a fact, which makes him the closest thing to an expert on all of the chutes provided Cooper. Of course the FBI is going to use Cossey. Has nothing to do with ego or personality - its just a fact! He may not have remembered all of the aspects of every chute he worked on during his life. He's only human! I dont place too much stock in some people's push to psychoanalyze Cossey's life! I DOUBT THE PEOPLE USING THIS TACTIC CAN STAND UP TO THE SAME ANALYSIS!! I know one well known Cooper researcher in the news who pumps the FBI for any information he can get on the one hand then turns around and smears the FBI on the other - one of the same people that said Tina was a 'psych case and worthless'. Does any of this tell us anything worthwhile about Cooper ?

Looks like Prince Charles ?

It could be 'tactics'. If you claim somebody died when word gets out, somebody who knew Cooper might be moved to provide evidence he is not dead - something concrete like a photo from Havana with Cooper's arm around some girl in a bar, with a $20 pasted on back of the photo! Larry places a high value on people talking, ie human nature. Then as time passes if people dont talk, then Cooper surely must be dead - confirmation bias. .................... How to navigate in a back hole 1:01 ... something "actionable", Larry's favorite word.

Very good interview of Agent Carr: https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-cooper-vortex-darren-schaefer-and-SAjTPN0by-8/ Carr explains his views well under very focused questioning by a superbly prepared Darren. A couple of things stand out. Larry's forte is not technology or science. Larry knows about Tom's work but really doesnt known in any detail what Tom did or has found. Larry appears only on the private Ulis Facebook page so if you are approved you can ask Larry questions there. If not approved, tough luck. That casino is open only to members. Larry says Cooper was a no pull. His bones are yet to be found in the Washougal Basin. The money survived intact in the bag and then washed into the Columbia, perhaps got snagged by floating debris, then 'floated' up on Tena Bar where - conveniently without being noticed by anyone for an indeterminable time - the bag conveniently dissolved quickly, not being noticed again, most of the money washed away without being noticed, until at length the Ingram's discovered three bundles, buried between 3-8" deep. ? Darren failed to ask Larry to explain the fragments because - there are no fragments.

Carr insists Cooper was a no-pull. (which follows the old FBI scenario and a scenario someone wrote at wiki - that Cooper's handling of the chutes showed him a rank amateur) What do you think ?

He must have learned of his error soon after ? How? When? Who told him? Did anyone ever tell him .... ? Does Cossey ever publicly acknowledge Hayden chutes anywhere, ever ? Did someone from the media tell him finally? What year? ............................. Cossey's feud with the press went on for decades. Then it turns out the packing cards on Hayden's chutes are signed by, guess who. Cossey! Cossey is all over the chute story - like it or not. It's all in a day's work - in the Cooper Cult ? Always black vs white. Never any gray. All or nothing. Total control of the story at all times. Until it collapses the next day, and then we are back to ground zero with new rounds of certainty and guessing broadcast by someone ...

Is it possible Cossey never knew about Hayden's chutes, or the full story about what chutes people had collected provided ? How would he know unless someone told him specifically ? Did Cossey and Hayden ever communicate about this? If he didnt know I can see how this might degenerate into a debate and a controversy with reporters and others hounding Cossey ? A very large part of the Cooper story is a story about poor communications. It continues to this very day as witnessed by Bruce Smith's recent interview of Larry Carr! Both parties are at logger-heads with different information and zero common ground, and different motives! Emma called Georger the day after the hijacking and said: "The plane flew over here and was on fire! We dont know if it crashed or what !" Georger replied: "Gram, I havent seen that on the news." Emma's son Vern worked at Wilhelm Trucking with Janet and her husband. They attended the same church. Many people soon learned of the story later transmitted to Richard Tosaw and then to the newspapers, years later! The Cooper story is full of miss-information! There are people still making it up for the public, every single day. There are people working overtime to come up with novel twists and turns they then publish ... to keep people interested? People have very diverse backgrounds with which to judge and evaluate this chatter.

Cooper jumped with TWO! money containers ? says Bruce Smith via Ulis ? « Reply #7940 on: Today at 11:30:35 PM » From Eric's research on the dummy chute, it seems like Cooper wrapped some of the money in the chute within the container. As a result, Cooper really jumped wearing two bags of money. « Today at 11:30:56 PM by Bruce A. Smith » Is it possible Cooper jumped twice - from two different planes? The cosmic iterations waiting to be "researched", are endless. Could we obtain the name of Cooper's mother from research on the dummy chute ?

Good observations. Yes. I see 1mm vs 1mm+. This could be material from the screening, on the 2nd and third day ? DS was no longer there. DS left early on the 2nd day to do something else and never returned to the sandbar. I think you are correct w. respect to Q59. I learned a long time ago not to predict dna being found after the fact on old material from crime scenes. Its always a crap shoot. But today's techniques are better than even ten years ago. It could be a very time consuming process in any event... What happened to Tom's backup dna samples from the tie? His first samples done for the History channel documentary proved contaminated. Were his backup samples ever tested - any report? Has it fallen through the cracks in a media frenzy?

So all of this (3 packages) was submission Q59. 'Specimen Q59 contains (rounded) sand which indicates it was subjected to erosion processes, i.e. moving water, and is consistent with having come from sediment which is deposited by the Columbia River. Q59 is enclosed herewith. The disposition of Q58 will be furnished with. the results of the requested finger print examination.' Then from another document: 'Q59 (is) Soil from submitted U. S. currency Result of examination Q58 unknown amout of currency will be sent separately . . . ' So the tiny stuff is soil or sand from the bills or fragments ? Has the returned Hayden chute been swabbed for dna ?

what does DS mean - I dont read your code.

what does DS mean? The FBI did not collect/save micro sized "anything" at Tena Bar to be put in a plastic box in the Seattle office basement. I have shown two agents these plastic boxes - they dont know what they are or where it came from, but THEY speculate it is debris from the evidence folders, so the idea of debris from evidence folders is not mine! Since you seem to know everything about this why dont YOU tell US what this debris is and where it came from. Outer space?

You are posing hypotheticals that nobody can answer -

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ! Bruised ego? Psyche ? Bruce Smith & I ? Georger told each of us ... independently ? Taking charge of your actions ... ? Is this bigger than Watergate ? Knick knack, paddy whack, Give a dog a bone.