georger

Tom did not test paper bank straps ... it wasnt in the vita. I caution about making blanket statements. I am going to use the word straps vs bands. Maybe! Currency money straps colors and capacities conform to Federal Reserve Bank standards for currency straps. Dimensions: 1.25 x 7.875. Where they overlap provides double protection. They are self sticking. They stiffen and compress a package of money in a money bag ... they change the geometry and mass of a load. When used, a bag of money could become a missile... I can already hear the gears in people's brains turning ... any paper money straps in the Cooper comic ? Can anyone see any band shadows on any of the bills? I question that these bands automatically dissolve in 6 mos or any other magical time period, convenient to a particular narrative ... go look on the Treasury Department's Forensic Money website.

Himmelsbach was never wrong. Which banks were named on the paper straps? Any bank telephone numbers etc . . . in case the straps were stolen or lost ?

Answer from Carr ... " Here is Larry Carr’s answer regarding your question: “The 302 that relates to the money isn’t really clear. We know the money had rubber bands when found, but the 302 says the money was banded in stacks of 100. I assume from the way it was written they were paper bank bands. But the 302 doesn’t specifically point out paper bands.” Hope this helps. Chaucer " nothing mentioned about having talked to the bank employee ? Nothing about Larrys call or mine to Pat Ingram after Larry had supposedly talked to the bank guy. Tempus fugates in the maldum fornax! Wither it goes nobody knows.

I have asked Chaucer to ask Carr on the EU forum, if Carr ever talked to any bank people about how the Cooper bills were packed. Rubber bands and paper straps, rubber bands only, etc. And how many bills per bundle... This is all I can do. I think TK and Brian Ingram might know something about this but decline to comment. So this issue is stuck until somebody clears it up with firsthand evidence.

Ask R99 if Skinwalker is under the west path! Thanks for the humor!!

Packets as a formal term having anything to do with the Cooper case, never appeared until you joined this case. The whole issue is now screwed up until Carr straightens it out and he doesnt appear to be interested or even aware or care - Hollywood Carr has other fish to fry today. Its just one more piece of the Cooper case that will never be resolved. I have no personal stake in this matter whatever. I do know because I was personally there that the issue of paper straps vs bands came up via Carr when we were trying to get specimens from Brian Ingram to test, and everything stopped cold waiting for Carr to talk to Pat Ingram and band people .......... until Carr sent out a message that no paper straps had been involved ... Ive been over this so many times I AM SICK OF IT AND DONT CARE! No sane person cares!

missundetrstood your use of the word "bands". Shanah et shmi lhayin v'et . got it. paper bands vs rubber bands called paper straps. Carr said no paper straps were used. FJ says Carr is lying. I dont think this is ever going to be solved/resolved. The election was stolen!

Two types of bands? Used in the Cooper case, says Dudeman? Thats news to everyone I know including TK. Where is Dudeman getting that information? The bank that packaged the money used bands that came from Alliance Rubber Company, Hot Springs, AR In business since 1923 producing rubber bands. From Kaye site: Personal Communication, Dennis Long, Alliance Rubber, Technical Dept.: Mr. Long in a phone conversation confirmed that they were the major supplier to all the west coast banks in 1971. He further stated that the differences in chemical composition of their rubber bands produced 1971, to the bands they supplied for testing, would be minimal. Mr. Long provided a significant number of the proper rubber bands for use in testing for which we are grateful. 4. Mechanism of Rubber Aging, B. L. Johnson, F.K. Cameron, Ind.Eng. Chem.,1933, pg 1151 Ckret talked to the band people about how the money was prepared for Cooper. Bands only. No paper straps. In spite of Ckret now associating with Gray, Ulis, etal........ Ckret has not given any further statement on this issue that I am aware of. Since Carr deals with Chaucer maybe Chaucer can ask him? From Kaye site: If the bundles had been exposed to the elements for an extended period, then the rubber should have degraded and lost the ability to hold the bundles together. Since the rubber bands were found intact, this places a "degradation limit" on when the bundles became buried on Tena Bar. In order to place constrains on the degradation limit, the first of two experiments was conducted with rubber bands submerged in a river in Arizona. Figure 2 shows the stages of rubber band decomposition under water. After submersion for 234 days, all the bands were broken except the group with the smallest initial 150% stretch. These remaining bands had become permanently stretched to the 150% point and did not retract in size when removed. When the bands were stretched an additional 25%, they broke. Figure 3 shows the level of degradation closeup and illustrates how tenuously the bands were still in place. This experiment suggests that a rubber band lifetime of less than a year would be expected in fresh water. In order to mimic the conditions of sand burial on Tena Bar, a second experiment was constructed where the rubber band fixture was buried under an inch of beach sand and left outside in a residential backyard in Portland. The condition of the bands after 46 and 108 days is shown in Figure 4. By the 355th day all the bands were broken and none were left intact. This experiment also indicates that rubber bands under sand, have similar lifetimes to submerged bands which is less than a year. The control fixture had all its bands intact after two years. This suggests that the degradation and final breakage of the bands "in nature" within a year, were due to environmental factors.'

To complicate matters further: (1) Tom first looked at three bills Ckret provided and saw no diatoms. That result was unexpected (2) No proof of paper straps has ever been shown. It's pure speculation based on second hand interpretation. (3) So far nobody has given an estimate of how many different diatoms there are (or were) in the sands or water at the Ingram site, as an independent fact of nature. Our first guess was a 100% probability of being exposed to diatoms at the Ingrams site, but is that correct? (4) Did the Ingram bills ever fan out at all, anywhere? Nobody knows including Tom. (5) Paper money is a cellulose cloth vs. paper. Cellulose cells swell when wet and then contract as they dry, even when grouped in a congealed mass. That offers space for smaller diatoms to enter. This is independent of any bills ever fanning out so there is a mechanism for diatom entry which has nothing to do with fanning out. (6) Tom is dwelling on 'fanning out' which may never have happened. The distribution of the diatoms Tom found may suggest some other mechanism. That's enough for now. Nobody has ever searched the evidence folders debris for diatoms, or the contents of those plastic socalled fragment containers ...

Kaye's diatom theory requires fanning out in open water, but that requires working bands. Obviously bills cannot fan out unless they are being restrained by something ... viable rubber bands. But Tom sets band life in nature as short - 6 months to a year? Thus, using Tom's constraints, the latest the money could have fanned out in water is about 6 mos to 1 year after the hijacking or the end of 1972 based on the lifetime of rubber bands. Obviously the bills cannot fan out after the rubber bands have ceased to be viable restraints on the bills. Tom says: Rubber bands were found intact but degraded on the bundles suggests they were initially buried without any significant exposure to the elements which is known to rapidly degrade them25. Maybe Tom is now proposing that the Ingram bands lasted longer? Maybe even 7 years? This is all conjecture on Tom's part in any event. Another problem is Tom describes the found money as "the bills had congealed into a solid lump consistent with the condition the bills were found in, preventing any further diatom infiltration ..." A congealed solid lump of bills cannot fan out! A congealed solid lump of bills prevents diatom infiltration! When did congealing prevent fanning out? When did congealing shut the door to diatom exposure of the inner bundle bills. These factors, and others, are clocks that set a time limit on when diatom exposure can and cannot happen. If fanning out is required for the bills to take on diatoms then someone needs to set the time limits for when the bills could have fanned out, or not. And the same for 'congealing'. Et cetera... Food for thought.

Good - applause. Intact sounds like FBI-speak. Biblical, rush to judgement by people barely qualified to put on a Band Aid. A serious problem is people continue to use it . . and they are deadly serious.

ok ........... thanks.

Cooperites keep saying "the bands were intact", quote unquote. Just about everybody recites this mantra - Kaye, Ulis, Carr, Chaucer, . . . So, would someone explain to me what this means? "the bands were intact" ... And, if this often recited phrase has no meaning, what does that mean! BTW the Cooper case in the hands of pundits is FULL of this kind of confusion or obfuscation and it is the source of conflict between people.

What happened to Sluggo's old Cooper site? Anyone know? Chaucer keeps saying he goes there .... so is Walker's old Cooper site still active but owned by somebody else? Or is this just another figment of someone's imagination?

OK.

Plus we have crew statements: "we could feel it in our ears" - that is pressure not mechanical only. R99 is just not a reliable source in these matters - he's all over the map and unable to focus or remember what he did just a few days ago. The test flight tested the basic issues in play and probably needs no further personal interpretation by latter day experts who think they know better. The test flight results have stood the test of time and need no latter day revision! I do believe there are a few things we can take for granted and reply on ... which means we are free to focus on other important issues - no disrespect to R99 intended but we do need to move on which is what Im trying to do! For example, what does Tom's diatom work say or not say ? That needs to be clarified because it is important ...

R99 says: The oscillations referred to the fluctuations in the cabin pressure. They were caused by Cooper having to get below the hinge point on the stairs so that he could create enough space to jettison the items that were not tied to his body and/or parachute. The bump was caused by the aft stairs hitting the fuselage immediately after Cooper jumped. Again, I would strongly recommend that anyone interested in aircraft navigation, performance, the air traffic control system, or anything aeronautical go to the FAA's web page, work your way to their publications page and download the free publications related to your interests. And read them. In my always humble opinion, the FAA publications are extremely good. So ... Air Pressure events vs Mechanical events .... ? Is R99 correct or wrong?

It comes from the Campbell crew interviews - Hancock, Flo, Mucklow, Rat, Anderson, etc ... I can cite the passages again but that takes time/work... those are the docs published by Gray, given to Shutter ... core testimony in the Cooper case. Hancock eg. : During her final minutes on board and after the parachutes had been brought aboard, Hancock noticed that one of the parachutes had been unpacked and she asked the hijacker if he had taken the parachute apart and he replied “yes”. Hancock says the hijacker began unpacking one chute and cutting cords almost as soon as the chutes were brought on board.

Indicates a communication time lag - uncertainty at several different levels. At least three groups were working on this - Air Force, pilots, "Sunderlandt", and the FBI does not make flight paths and drop zones! May seem confusing by today's standards ............ but at least they werent waiting on messengers traveling on horse back to deliver news to the Queen. Today we still wait on messengers to replace myth and propaganda with true facts! A guy getting his book published is more important than facts. Facts are always the last to arrive...

Chaucer says: I propose that the 727 was experiencing what's known as a phugoid. Hmmmmmm. Doubtful. Wasnt a tonsillectomy or a hysterectomy or mass psychosis either. Good try.

Let me throw this out just to have it on the table ... Galen Cook proposed years ago that the Ingram money could have migrated up from the mouth of the Lewis to TBar via "reverse tides". I talked to Galen's science team guy who then backed off Galen's claim. The issue died there. But the whole thing started when Galen was told by somebody (Curtis Eng?) about a report like the one you have just found. H reported being told the night of the hijacking that Cooper had landed near Woodland, in the Lewis River area. He supposedly was in a helo and they flew up to that area to look but the weather closed everything down .... if dredging materials were indeed taken from the area around the mouth of the Lewis up to Tena Bar .... if that can be documented .... that would be new.

This has always been an interesting report. Did any followup occur? More 302s about it? Did the guy spotted have a bag or a brief case? Any real evidence dredging spoils at the Lewis mouth were transported to Tena Bar? If that can be proved then we may have the source of the Ingram money and fragments ? People may be missing something important about the diatoms and money. Simply, what condition were the bills in when exposed to diatoms? Were they new bills with full borders or already deteriorated bills like that turned in by the Ingrams? What does the distribution Tom found suggest ? If the bills were already deteriorated when exposed to diatoms, that sets a time limit on when diatoms and money came into contact. If it could be proved that Lewis River sediments were transported to Tena Bar the Lewis could be the source of the Cooper money. That could open a whole new chapter in the case. Its also worth noting again that nobody saw money at Tena Bar beach prior to the Ingram discovery, and neither did the Ingrams. It took the act of kids digging to expose money! The money was buried under sand. More time and erosion might have exposed it to view of fishermen. But that had not happened yet until the Ingram children happened to be probing and digging ... and the Lewis River has always been a favorite target with respect to the flight path and the timing of Cooper's jump window... the Lewis area could be key to everything. Any chance Tom can get some of the fragments to test for diatoms ??????????????

Can you at least FINALLY - GET THE NAME STRAIGHT !! His name is: NWO flight operations boss Paul Soderlind. Not Sunder lind. SODERLIND. Here is the name used in a sentence.. Please make note of it. Paul Soderlind, who at the time was Northwest Airline's director of flight operations-technical, flew the same plane in a re-enactment after it was returned to Portland. The radio conversation with the crew during Cooper's flight had been interrupted by the pressure bump when he jumped, and by lowering the aft ramp _ and another pressure bump as the ramp slammed closed _ so the plane's position at the time of the jump could be quite accurately calculated, Soderlind said. SODERLIND. Do you have it now?

Key to all of these issues are two things: (a) a working model of Tena Bar that includes erosion and how things move at that beach, including the actual history of deposition on that beach, and (b) a true description of the money fragments vs Ingram bundles that were found during the excavation. Palmer didnt fully document anything! Different people always claim different evidence based on something of their own choosing. The Tena Bar excavation was the worst documented excavation in the history of Mankind! I just cant believe that the Egyptian pyramids were built in Hungary then moved to Egypt, on the backs of swans banded with straps and rubber bands. What I want is some documented facts for a change ! Its difficult to believe that so many people who were involved got so many basic facts wrong! Maybe 305 went up and circled the north pole and never landed in Reno at all. This may come down to willpower on forums vs facts.

So you are saying the money spot was never covered over or affected by dredging ? Anything that is exposed to surface water is exposed to diatoms, irrespective of when or how it got to the surface to be exposed.