georger

You seem devoted to 'Cooper went into the Columbia' and yet you appeal to Jo-ism? The preponderance of the evidence would seem to select against a Columbia landing, Near the Columbia is a higher probability. And there is nothing about the money find at Tina Bar which requires a Columbia landing or makes it more probable (that I know of). If money had turned up in Toledo would you require a Toledo landing! If money did not turn up in Toledo would that require a Columbia landing? As I read your many posts on this they seem to boil down to two things: a. the money found at Tina Bar. b. Cooper vanished.

How? The two have nothing to do with each other outside of random probability in a scenario where the jumper has no idea where he is, in the first place? I'm assuming jumpers have some training that would decrease their likelihood of jumping into the Columbia. If you're saying jumpers and non-jumpers are equally likely to land in the Columbia, okay. my opinion: no. I don't need to know the "why" ...just if you threw jumpers up and nonjumpers up, I think the nonjumpers would more likely end in the Columbia. if you add in hours or daylight then sure - I dont know what your timeframe is.

[Im going to reply to this then come back later, before internet services go out again today - we have a blizzard here with 60mph winds ...' Sluggo did some fine fuel consumption calcs very early, based on transcript info for different periods throughout the flight. Sluggo came up short on fuel to make Reno with the original settings. Maybe Sluggo will jump in here Scott/Rat advised Cooper they could not make it to Mexico City nonstop so Reno was chosen but that was iffy in terms of fuel given the original settings w. gear down. Still they went. After 8:10-20 they trimmed flap settings, gained altitude, sped up, and made Reno was gas to spare. Its all in the transcript. Cooper never asked once about fuel consumption nor did his original requests account for it .

Look close to home - Was the French comic sold in Utah!?

Jumpers have training that shows them how to steer a parachute and how to find a suitable landing area. If they get thrown out at night and can't see what is below them - especially if they have not jumped where they planned - I can't necessarily see anything that would make a difference between where jumpers and (previous) non-jumpers would land. We discussed visibility before. As I recall, consensus was that the river would have been hard to identify from above. Amazon, others with night jumps in non-civilian DZ areas... any comments - would the river have been clear to a jumper under the weather conditions listed? So the only feedback is from your eyes and steering? What about pre-planning: i.e. I know there's a big river near Portland. Make sure you jump before or after Portland. Not near it. Rivers are bad. Wouldn't that reflect training I could use, even if I only suspected where Portland was? Or do jumpers not think like that? Have we thrown out "he didnt know where he was"? He knew he was at SEA. He knew Tacoma was near SEA. He knew he might die or be injured. Did he know where the Jack Daniels was!?

Correct! I just keep thinking that if he drowned or augered into the Death woods and hasnt been found, someone would have pieced two and two together with a missing person... UNLESS he was domiciled overseas and his failure to return would have been seen as a Yank repatriating and not seen as a suspicious disappearance. Snow's Boeing employee-Smoke jumper-Skydiver suspect was domiciled in a VERY obscure rural OUS place before Nojack, but he is alive. If he had died, I doubt if he would have been missed where he had been living. 377 send his dna to Larry or to me!

I also suspect that unless the terrain dictated the specific request for 10k this was "ego" driven. My logic for this is that my experience of jumping was a traditional 8k exit altitude (maybe the US was different don't know). With no reserve adding height above 2 or 3k gives no benefit, just colder, harder to determine position etc. I say 2 or 3k as that is 15-20 seconds before you bounce - which is plenty of time. Another thought - jumpers think in terms of AGL, pilots in terms of ASL. So the 10k was "damn we only ever get 10k on a good day at the DZ or at a Boogie", lets get the max from this trip. He didnt specify the or any route. He didnt know where he was unless he picked that up looking out the window, or,. there is something we have not been told about ... He's flying blind so far as we know. I do agree a novice would instinctively want a low altitude and slow speed ... and lots of personal attention before doing the deed (jumping)! Lots of personal attention is exactly what he asked for ("sit next to me") and what he got.

How? The two have nothing to do with each other outside of random probability in a scenario where the jumper has no idea where he is, in the first place?

So it could be that it showed a partial understanding of aircraft and substantial knowledge of skydiving? A whuffo doesn't think that air hurts! BTW I picked 400 as a random high number - I don't know how fast you can go before it hurts/injures you, I also don't know what the aircraft manuals would state as far as a maximum gear up speed is. Maybe it goes full circle to the loadmaster argument? As I read the transcripts wheels down was creating turbulence and Scott had to slow and continue to trim the plane to maximise the stability 'the crew thought' would get this guy to jump! They were doing everything they thought required to get a jumper to jump.... to get Cooper to jump and be gone. The whole issue was "the jump" and they wanted Cooper to jump, and there was constant communication back and forth getting Cooper satisfied so he would jump and be gone. As I read this (the transcripts) it became a joint effort between Scott/Rat and Cooper with Scott & Rat doing all of the technical work. It appears everything Cooper and the flight crew did from liftoff to 8:10 is a combined effort to accomodate Cooper jumping a.s.a.p and finally by ~8:10-8:20 Cooper has been satisfied and makes his jump ... and the transcript of communications suddenly goes blank until after 8:20! The communications that occurred between 8:10/8:13 and 8:22 have never been published. They knew Cooper had jumped and the crew had done everything necessary to trim the plane so Cooper would be satisfied and jump ...

Let me be clear about this: So you are saying N467US could have been flown at 180kts or even 160 kts without any regard to flap settings or gear (wheels down) - simply by engine control? Would this config be flight stable, with what risk of a stall? You ask: "Does this simple request for the gear to be down betray anything else?" That is a good question! Why would he ask for wheels down if it is a non sequitur? (a) poor understanding of the flight dynamics involved and the 727 in particular He does not have either an avionics or parachuting background? He thinks wheels down is required to slow a jet and makes it more stable in flight or enables a jet to fly at a lower altitude and still remain stable while avoiding a stall. Is he thinking in terms of prop driven aircraft vrs a modern jet or is his request a non sequitur for any aircraft? (b) he has something else in mind. ... wants the plane ready for a quick landing if he deems that necessary or wants it? As for example, landing at some small airport ... or landing in the Columbia or landing in some open space near Reno ??? This guy has no plan beyond hijacking the aircraft and is flying by the seat of his pants?

I think it is issues like this that has lead the FBI and Ckret to think Cooper was a novice, from what the FBI and others see as inconsistent-conflicting demands. I think we concluded long ago Cooper never did ask for specific flap settings. He did ask for gear down (according to Rat) and for rear door open at takeoff. (So why not specify a flap setting?). Cooper did not ask for V23 or any specific route. Gear down is not going to add to stability - it only complicates a pilots job and adds turbulence and instability (in bad weather) if I am correct? It is also clear Cooper did not know how to get the rear door open. He thought it could be opened from the cockpit. That proved wrong so he wanted Tina to open it. Then Tina and Cooper together got it open after messsing around for minutes... It appears to me Cooper is relying a lot on others and less on his own knowledge. He assumes gear down can be handled by the pilots, the rear stairs lowered from the cockpit, then he calls on the PA and wants things evened out (more stable) ... its not exactly the sign of someone experienced and self confident in the context of that plane in those circumstances. And the FBI assigns the same evaluation to the whole hijacking .... he died. But, he may not have died in spite of the flaws. A number of equally good people think that. Draw your own conclusions based on your knowledge and experience -

I have no idea 'why' Cooper thought as he did, but Rat says he did ask for wheels down ... but flap settings were at the pilot's discretion: Here is Sluggo's post on this where he quotes Rat - post#4225 8-26-08 Sluggo: "Now Back to the landing gear thing: Since aviation savvy and non-savvy alike read this, I’ll split the description between technical and non-technical. If anyone doesn’t understand, I’ll be glad to amplify it or you can consult any beginner pilot manual. Flaps increase lift. Increased lift ALWAYS is accompanied by drag (called parasite drag). The increase in lift when lowering flaps causes the stall speed to get lower. Stall speed is the speed that the airflow on the wings will stop making lift (the plane falls out of the sky). Lower stall speed is a good thing if you want to fly slowly and not fall out of the sky. The more flaps (higher degrees) the slower the plane can fly. But you also have to add power to overcome the parasite drag. While lift is ALWAYS accompanied by drag, drag is not always accompanied by lift. When you put the gear down (except is some special cases) you increase drag. The only thing you can do to keep the plane from slowing with the increased drag is to add more power. Adding more power uses more fuel. Here is a transcript from an interview with Rataczak: “He had given us the following demands: The aircraft would be flown at 10,000 feet, with the flaps down, [and] the gear down. And, the demand later came that he wanted the flaps to be put at 15º. He had done some homework or possibly had some flight time… I don’t know…” Let’s assume Cooper knew something about flight dynamics. At the minimum, he used the proper terminology. If he wanted the plane to fly slow, he would have said “flaps down,” possibly he would have said “flaps to 15º.” If he wanted to go even slower he would have said “flaps to 30º.” But instead he said “flaps AND gear down.” Lowering the gear did not increase lift and lower stall speed. It did however cause an enormous FUEL BURN RATE. So high, in fact, that at one time there was doubt they would make RNO. So why would Cooper want them to fly in a configuration that burned excessive fuel? OKAY THIS IS SLUGGO TALKING, you know what my pet theory is… here it comes… To keep them from taking Victor-27. The weakest part of my “forced them to V-23” argument was that V-27 didn’t add all that much distance (as opposed to V-23). So, have I drawn the curve, THEN plotted the points? Or, have I plotted the points and then drawn the curve? Can anyone suggest another reason he specified “gear down?” I am (as always) open for criticism. Thanks for your patience, Sluggo_Monster

The traditional answer has been: to slow the aircraft down. (to make it more stable at a slow speed at a low altitude?).

Exactly. As far as Sluggo reported, the FBI never contacted Braden. It's an example of how silly it is to listen to Jo's comments on what the FBI did or didn't do. Or Orange1's about what the FBI did or didn't do. The right answer: no one has a clue what the FBI did. Best to assume they just jerked off. I use Braden as an example, because Waugh thought he was worth investigating. If you're going to say Waugh's opinion is worth less than whoever's opinion it was that caused the FBI to interview that other SOG guy (forgot his name)...well I guess there's a difference of opinion. Snow -this is ridiculous! No one knows the facts anymore. Please explain to the this forum and everyone how anyone person here has had access to interviews done by the FBI. Can any of you explain that statement? You have to be FBI to have access to these files - I can't even get information on my own husband who is deceased - SO how did anyone read the file on Braden's interview? When it comes to claiming to have read FBI files of interviews and investigations done by the FBI regarding a suspect in any case by a member of this thread - I question HOW this can be! FIOA files? Surely if there is a copy of an interview with Braden, then Duane's files should also be public - but they aren't - not even to his wife. Please explain what you are talking about - first you did and then you didn't. Is anything you say true or are you what I was called earlier - a troll? I thought a troll was someone who goes to a thread to create havoc and take control of the thread with no purpose other than to post unrelated "stuff" and taking a thread off subject. Some of the conversation earlier today - should not be in a thread on History and Trivia. If you guys want to talk about risque subjects - take it to BonFire. I believe a lot of the old timers who use History and Trivia for information may be offended by the subjects discussed earlier. A little fun is one thing - but, some of you are carrying it to far.. The moderators will not tolerate this much longer and it is driving others away who come here to read the controversary and explorations about the hows and whys of the Cooper jump. Sluggo pulled out and others who came to make contributions have pulled back. Sluggo tried to tell you there are things going on and now I am telling you serious things are developing regarding Cooper. The serious posters and readers DO not want to lose this thread because inappropriate things are being mentioned. Just to put a point on this, YOU dont reveal your sources either! Retired FBI who? I do not mind if people dont want to reveal their sources. I do mind if people claim to have read files and havent, or joke about it to the point nobody knows what is going on because the troll author has the personal opinion this is a useless exercise and HE is damned well going to have it be that way, one way or the other, all the while dong wha the thinks is serious work in the background he then reveals!? Who was it said "nothing is fair" - Nomman. And just for the record there are a few standup people here- Sluggo for one. Thomas for another. They may be dead wrong and even play a few games but sooner or later they are reliable, if given a fair shake .... and I damned-well appreciate that. Call me naive.

Did we have any previous posts about this club?? Did the FBI talk to them?? Yeah its where theparachutes were brought to the plane from. Long gone now.. but a long time home of the Seattle Skydivers. They moved from there back to Snohomish..... where I jump since its only a few miles form my house.. I knew the parachutes came from Issaquah but I wasn't aware that it was called the Boeing Employee Skydivers Club! Thats just where the club sometimes met for meetings and sometimes jumped from - thats my understanding. I think there is another connection, deeper, like a Boeing employee maybe suggested the facility as a place to get the parachutes vs McChord ... I just cant remember the details at this moment (of heated debate with Nomman).

Look, I haven't read the posts that brought up Kool Aid. But presumably when we are talking late 60s/early 70s there is one HUGELY obvious implication of Kool Aid? What are people saying, that Cooper was on LSD when he did the hijack?? I expected Kool Aid to bring in Jim Jones and his cult. Im surprised Nomman didnt go there and bring us photos of Jonestown .... or the Great Wall ... or Mons Olympus .... or something?

Did we have any previous posts about this club?? Did the FBI talk to them?? Per conversations I had with retired FBI - this group was one of the first they looked at and interviewed. That is why I had tried to make contact before I ever had a computer. It was one of the starting points. N467US was a Boeing plane. Some people felt Cooper knew more about the plane than the average person. A crew member may have suggested just that. Boeing personnel were involved in discussions as the plane sat at SEA so Boeing personnel were already in the loop. Looking at Boeing employees was a logic next step. Being a Boeing Employee is not all that exclusive a club.. I even worked there for a couple years... I wish they would have taken me up on my offer to test jump the 787 Dreamliner... I have stood right there in the port rear door..... looked at the horizontal stabilizer.. the curve of the fusalage there.... no problem Full flaps... gear down.. Approach speed of 150 knots..open the rear door...... and give me 3500' over Paine filed... easy.. Check the door http://blog.flightstory.net/wp-content/uploads/787-dreamliner-fatigue-airframe.jpg I was speaking "strictly" about WHY the FBI would investigate any particular group within the Boeing looking for a lead to who Cooper was. Jo's recitation of what happened is almost identical to my understanding also. Jo says she was given this info from a retired FBI person. I have already given my sources in earlier posts on this matter - which Snowmman says was never discussed!

You have read a 1973 FBI interview transcript of Braden, and the FBI disposition file? I dont recall you ever claming this before? I must have missed this! Exactly. As far as Sluggo reported, the FBI never contacted Braden. It's an example of how silly it is to listen to Jo's comments on what the FBI did or didn't do. Or Orange1's about what the FBI did or didn't do. The right answer: no one has a clue what the FBI did. Best to assume they just jerked off. (edit) I use Braden as an example, because Waugh thought he was worth investigating. If you're going to say Waugh's opinion is worth less than whoever's opinion it was that caused the FBI to interview that other SOG guy (forgot his name)...well I guess there's a difference of opinion. Do you realise there are people who read this forum who knew Braden personally ... you silly ....?

Its not fear at all. Im just coming from the other end of this. I generally dont chase rainbows. But more importantly Snow and I discussed this privately, briefly (I think). I listened to what he had to say, I sympathised, I tend to stay out of people's business unless asked in, and I thought: 'well its Ckret and Snow's call'. That is all there is to this, from my perspective. I thought Sluggo might be involved. I knew Tom wasnt involved. I went on with my dinner and the day's work . . . Sorry Georger, your ass-kissing doesn't cut it. I've always thought you were an asshole. I may have PM'ed you once or twice. Heck post any and all PMs I ever sent you. I don't care. You're full of shit. (edit) I really doubt I PM'ed you on this thing. Prove me wrong. (edit) On the other hand, it's not your fault. As president-for-life of the CSG, I do have powers beyond those granted by Congress. so you are denying you told me about your candidate and Larry not getting back to you about it, that you were pissed after all the time you spent, blah blah blah .... FUCK YOU BEAVER.

You have read a 1973 FBI interview transcript of Braden, and the FBI disposition file? I dont recall you ever claming this before? I must have missed this!

Did we have any previous posts about this club?? Did the FBI talk to them?? Per conversations I had with retired FBI - this group was one of the first they looked at and interviewed. That is why I had tried to make contact before I ever had a computer. It was one of the starting points. N467US was a Boeing plane. Some people felt Cooper knew more about the plane than the average person. A crew member may have suggested just that. Boeing personnel were involved in discussions as the plane sat at SEA so Boeing personnel were already in the loop. Looking at Boeing employees was a logic next step.

Its not fear at all. Im just coming from the other end of this. I generally dont chase rainbows. But more importantly Snow and I discussed this privately, briefly (I think). I listened to what he had to say, I sympathised, I tend to stay out of people's business unless asked in, and I thought: 'well its Ckret and Snow's call'. That is all there is to this, from my perspective. I thought Sluggo might be involved. I knew Tom wasnt involved. I went on with my dinner and the day's work . . .

Ive seen the movie before. Let me quote it: "Fuck you Beaver".

Seriously Georger, find the suspect THEN tell us how irrelevant he is. Or admit that Snow is a better searcher and beg for the name. I had to eat some RF cooked crow because I couldn't find him. How do you like your crow seasoned? The dogs don't chew them unless Snow gives them permission. This is a great lesson in the subtilty of search word choices. 377 Now why would I want to waste my time on that? You and Snow are piccolo players - correct? Weve been playing this score for 50,000 bars - correct? Has it dawned on your and Snow your playing the tympany part!? (on your damned piccolos, no less!) Somebody handed you the wrong parts when the music was passed out! Duhhhhhhhhhh. The band is playing Swannee! You & Snowblower are playing "Persecution Rag", and playing the wrong damned parts no less! Christ on a Crutch.

While fishing for synbolisms and meaning: try the word PERSECUTION!