georger

Nexus, why not stay and just be a bit more civil? It won't make anything shorter or less funtional. I think I am gone too. Now you have the A-Qroup you always wanted. Outsource. http://utopianvision.co.uk/search/?q=qroupe&type=bolvideos Bye

He isn't in it for the money. I thought I made that clear. Next question, if you have an intelligent one, that is. I'm still hoping, believe it or not. Insult noted .... Ive lost count.

Only partially true. Lyle Christiansen thought some of the things he saw on the Unsolved Mysteries program were a good match for his brother. However, since he was a 78-year old retired postal worker with zero experience dealing with media, he had no idea how to proceed. This was one of the big reasons why Skipp and I only relied on him for actual physical evidence such as pictures and letters, and not testimony from him saying, 'My brother was the hijacker." That would have been taking the familiar route used by Galen Cook. We felt about Lyle the same as you, basically. We checked out his story, but we knew any testimony from him would be slanted. That's why you only find a little bit from him in the book. Yes. That is how it went at first. Lyle was a real amateur and had no idea what to do with his suspicions. Again, correct to a degree. However, Adventure Books of Seattle staff refused to proceed on the investigation or any possible book unless Lyle Christiansen signed a contract with us disallowing himself or his family anything but a modest amount that might come for book sales or film rights. He gets virtually nothing. Not absolute zero nothing, but you couldn't pay one month's rent on it over a period of several years. He's already pretty well off financially anyway. Gayla Prociv and I insisted on this arrangement to help provide some credibility to the family. In general, the Christiansen family believes that Kenny could be the guy, but they are embarrassed about it, and they certainly aren't looking to gain from it. Lyle, since he signed that contract, has said repeatedly he only wants to know the truth about his brother. He is also retired from the US Postal Service. And he has not been implicated as a suspect in a major unsolved crime. His penchant for inventions he probably inherited from his father, as noted in the book. Lyle had no idea that some of the things he forwarded to Skipp Porteous could be evidence when subjected to scrutiny and examined by experts. We're talking about a fairly senior guy here, (Lyle) who has no experience in these matters. He's even admitted to me he likes email better because he's not very good on the phone. Well, I wasn't sure Lyle or Porteous had anything until Porteous sent me the big package of files, background checks, letters, and photos on Christiansen. Then I thought maybe Skipp was onto something. And this was BEFORE I started interviewing people. After the second interview with 'Dawn J', I was beginning to suspect there was more to KC than met the eye. Besides the money, I think the two strongest pieces of evidence against Kenny are Dawn's ID of the tie-tac and Helen J's testimony that Kenny smoked Raleighs. She was absolutely certain on that. Of course, there is more, but we've already discussed that. I'm not completely sold on Kenny as the hijacker, but he needs to be investigated further until it is proven one way or another. One thing: Jo (falsely) claims that the FBI has said KC was eliminated by DNA testing. I don't necessarily trust the DNA sample they are using, but I will ask why they haven't yet eliminated Kenny. They've had Lyle's DNA for quite a while now, and I understand they already eliminated Duane Weber using the tie sample, and that this was BEFORE they got the Christiansen sample.(?) So, you screwed Lyle good! "He gets virtually nothing." You and Porteous used him in spite of his lying, then he admits his lie, but you still play ball just to have him on board, all so youcan build a THEORY OF A LIE and get something in return, but " He gets virtually nothing." What does "He gets virtually nothing." mean? You answered below : Good question. We gave Lyle a modest compensation just to cover his costs for mailings of letters, pictures, a bunch of stuff he continues to send. He even sent us a 'DB Cooper' puzzle he made out of a picture of Kenny. It was kind of cute, I'll admit. I won't deny that AB of Seattle stands to make money on book sales of the new edition when the show airs, but since we're already several thousand in the hole for research trips and everything else, we will be lucky to break even after all is said and done. We're realistic here, believe it or not. Book sales will probably spike for a short time, and then go back to normal. I don't see much for us beyond that. I think you have just defined your THEORY! Its a business model. A business model for YOU and a nightmare for others!

Meat on the bones. Substance on the pathology. I think the only remaining question is: "What is a theory about a theory about a lie in the first place" ? And, do theory pushers need a psychiatrist or a priest? Damn good work! Thanks!

Anywhere you have people involved in cooking or selling meth inevitably a lot of them start using and get really skinny. Bad teeth follows ("meth mouth" caused by dry mouth, lack of saliva, mouth acids go unneutralized and enamel erosion and decay follow fast). So if the suspect cult stayed chunky with good teeth you are probably barking up the wrong tree Nexus. I dont understand why Blevins gets trashed so hard. He isn't evil incarnate, does admit mistakes and he has stirred up the DBC pot in the public eye which is ALWAYS good for shaking out new leads. One of my brothers who does not dabble in DBC stuff told me he saw the National Geo special the other day. I asked him what he thought of it and he said he thought a good case was made for that NW employee who was a paratrooper being Cooper. He was especially impressed with a cash purchase of a house by a guy making peon wages. He thought KC looked very similar to the Cooper FBI sketch. I disagreed of course, but this shows you that some people think KC is a credible suspect. Jo, how about just teling us what you found? You KNOW the FBI will not do any further investigating for you, so just tell us what you found during your trip and why now you are saying unequivocally that Duane Weber was Dan Cooper. Orange was right about Madoff being proven a fraud long before his empire crashed. A fund manager, suspicious of Madoff's consistent and very high profit claims, proved beyond any doubt that there were no trades Madoff could have made (looking at volumes needed for his massive fund size) that would have accounted for the claimed results. This info was presented to the SEC who just ignored it and let madooff fleece more victims. The SEC's negligence was the subject of a federal suit by a lawyer whose family lost big with Madoff. The case was thrown out saying there was no federal liability. http://www.law360.com/articles/163713 377 There are many constructs for the face of God - likewise for Cooper. It is symptomatic of a semi intelligent species lost in space with nowhere to go, and nothing but a lot of hard work which may all come to nothing. The Cooper fascination gets us buy, so minimalisation wont work. The universe is not so relative that all things reduce to an orange. That only happens in Kali-forn-ya!

You and Georger speculate on a great many things regarding Kenneth Christiansen's life. The two of you are woefully uninformed. Kenny died of cancer, probably related to his temporary job on Bikini Island, where the government finally decided to re-evacuate everyone because the Strontium-90 levels were still too high to be safe. Had you read the book or maybe Geoff Gray's article, you would know how he died. As far as Lyle Christiansen, his involvement in the investigation has been mostly limited to providing letters written by Kenny and other physical items, including pictures. We always take a jaundiced view at verbal testimony presented by family members, unless it is backed by something else more solid. This is unlike what Galen Cook does, a man who relies mostly on family members who have much to gain if William Gossett were presented as the hijacker. The History Channel found Cook's claims completely without merit, and so do I. While you snipe and guess about the man's life, I have been out there for going on two years speaking to the people who knew him best. I have recorded their interviews (with permission), taken their pictures, and discussed Kenny's life with them at length. You ask if Kenny had a criminal record. Skipp and I ran that check not only on Kenny, but on many of the witnesses, the ones we thought could have been involved. What we discovered cannot be presented on a public forum until we discover the legal ramifications of doing so. You ask how Kenny died. We not only know, we know where they buried him. You wonder where the money went. We traced his financials thoroughly. In other words, we did the hard work of actually finding out what Kenny was all about. We present facts about his life, and you simply dismiss them as lies. You think we just made it all up. I can assure you we did not. One thing that is always difficult to share with people is the testimony of people who were closest to Kenny. The light bulb that comes on inside your head when, for example, 'Dawn J' holds the picture of the tie in her hand and says: Or maybe when 'Mike Watson' went on for twenty minutes about his friendship with Kenny over the years, but turned white as a sheet when I finally told him the real reason for the interview. (investigating the hijacking) Then he did a complete 180 and said we should speak to his ex-wife as Kenny's possible accomplice. When he was confronted by the History Channel with dozens of pictures of he and Kenny working together, or the wedding pictures, and all the other evidence, he had to relent. He changed his story at that point, saying he thought Kenny was the hijacker and that his ex-wife was Kenny's accomplice. In an effort to do damage control, he decided to drive down from Port Angeles and be interviewed for the show. The associate producer called me later about it: Or maybe when Skipp and I discovered that Kenny bought his Bonney Lake house for cash from a guy who just happened to be good friends with the Watsons. How convenient. One thing after another. The same basic story from one person interviewed after another, many of whom had not seen each other in more than thirty years, and had never been contacted previously by anyone regarding Kenny or the hijacking. Some of these people, instead of laughing me off their front porches, went right to finger-pointing regarding the hijacking. This was not only strange, but downright suspicious. This is not the behavior of innocent folks, but of people who realize a Big Secret they were a part of may have finally come out. Innocent people would perhaps ask if you were crazy, or to get the hell off their property. Instead of that, I have people like 'Dawn J' telling me things like this: "Oh...I thought Kenny was the hijacker from the beginning," she said. Or: 'So THAT'S where he got all the money..." Or: "Kenny owned a toupee. He wore it socially sometimes, but never on the job." Did she ever see him wear it after November 1971? "No," she said. I asked why no one ever confronted Kenny about possibly being the hijacker. "He was a nice guy and worked for the airline. It wouldn't have been polite..." I suppose not. At the start of my interview in early October with 'Helen J', she came to the door angry at me. "You have a lot of nerve," she said, "saying that a nice guy like Kenny was the hijacker." But by the end of the interview she was in tears. "How could he do such a thing?" She said. "I would never have thought he was a criminal..." Helen is a VERY nice lady. I tried to spare her feelings by saying that it was only a theory about Kenny, and we weren't 100% sure he was DB Cooper. One of the last questions I asked was if she knew if Kenny smoked. She said yes. Then I asked her if she knew what brand. Helen was not that familiar with the Cooper case and didn't understand why I was asking. "I don't know...I'm not sure. Is it important?" She asked. "It could be," I replied. "Raleighs," she said, after some thought. "Kenny smoked Raleighs. I remember because he saved the coupons. Does it mean anything?" "The hijacker smoked some cigarettes on the plane," I said. "They were Raleighs." The next day I stopped by her house and we talked for a while and had coffee. She was feeling better, and she promised to cooperate with one final interview before we enabled the new edition of the book. "We have to change it," I said. "Some things we got right, others we didn't." People on this thread like Georger and Nexus like to speculate on Kenny's life, but they have no clue. Personally, I think Kenny was a real nice guy, tougher than he looked, and was talked into the hijacking by 'Mike Watson'. I also beleive Watson had a reason for raiding 'Dick B's' house after Dick died and searching through his photos and personal papers, as well as the trip he made up to Twisp after Kenny died to steal the 1971 logbook. I was recently asked by a local reporter what might be the ramifications of Kenny being presented on national television as the possible hijacker: 'More information will come out about him," I said. "Just like what happened after we released the book. It's likely that Christiansen will either be proven to be the hijacker, or new information will come out that proves it was all just a bunch of coincidences..." If you are asking me which way it will go, I haven't a clue. However, if Kenny were still alive, I might go up to him in person and do my best Ricky Ricardo impression on him: The idea that Kenny Christiansen could have been DB Cooper is only a theory. There are only two things that could actually prove it. First, a witness who comes forward and admits their involvement, and is able to provide some details about the crime known to the FBI, but not to the public. Second, a piece of physical evidence that 100% links Kenny to the crime. In the lack of those things, it remains a theory. One thing strikes me. Copernicus was able to state his THEORY in one sentence. Galileo likewise. Cooper Anderson and Nancy Grace do it likewise. Yours must be a theory about a theory, about a theory - because you sure say a lot about something! That anyone including me followed you into this at all is unquestionably a sign of our stupidity and vulnerability because in the end, it does not matter what we think! WE are irrelevant. I guess it's between you and your bank and the FBI. GO FOR IT! WHY ARE YOU HERE? This is not a bank and we sure as hell are not the FBI! You came here for some reason? To expose us? To conquor us? To spread the gospel according to Blevins? What if it turns out nobody here really gives a shit? What then? Do you know this is the FBI's case and not yours? When cometh the red tide and will you be parting the waters? When do you plan to walk over? Is that why you care so much about this, or do you normally talk to yourself for days - in a closet? What do you hope to accomplish? Anything? Dont get the idea this is personal and directed at you - I have been asking the same question of Jo Weber for years. I ask it of everyone. That is my stock and trade. Like you, I need psychiatric help!

No! Im saying KC did only one crime in his life which was being gay and withdrawn, and people are still persecuting him for that, and making him a convenient target of opportunity. The crime is theirs, not Kenny's. I think Blevins knows this and is using the vulnerability that being gay conveys to a lot of people. I wonder about KC's criminal record. Is there one? I doubt it. H said Cooper was a professional criminal of the nastiest type. Blevins is now saying (theorising for publication) KC was a hijacker. I want to see Kenny's rap sheet. His crime was the gay gene and vulnerability in an era where saying nothing was the best policy and you got by, more or less but sometimes not. Kenny obviously got through the military un scathed, or did he? We dont have the whole story. We dont have very crucial facts. Blevins has conveniently chosen to ignore perhaps the most important element ... motive. KC had no motive to be hijacking an airplane. Blevins has failedto established the psychology for Kenny that would lead to a hijacking or a bank robbery. The crimes are related... I think Kenny was a pretty well adjusted guy and his rural cultural family played a large role in giving him the tools to deal with (his) life; perhaps his mother instilled these skills in him. Im guessing the real Kenny never would have guessed what is happening today would happen, especially from his own brother? If there are sisters it would be nice to talk to them for their perspective. Because KC was not DB Cooper any more than I was. I think Bruce could give us some valuable perspective on this whole dynamic. And I am 100% serious in what Im saying here tonight, now. Thats my THEORY. You knew what I meant, I think. The cross examination is good for adding emphasis.

I wonder about the real Kenny and the life he lead. He would never have come across anyone's radar without Lyle's stunt. Kenny probably lead a pretty normal life for a person of his type in those days, work was important enough to him to have a vita, and he may have hqad a stamp and coin collection he played with in the off hours while dreaming about 'what if and what might have been'... I dont see the psychology for hijacking an airplane in Kenny, or a bank robbery either, or any prolonged hard physical labour unless ordered to short term (his military service). It does make me wonder how he landed in the airborn WWII. I have to wonder what Kenny would think about all of this ^x*t. Always blame the gay guy. Gays can't defend themselves! Wasn;t that the rule in his era. Blevins should be researching Lyle under the title: "Why do gay guys get blammed'? That might be a better story worth telling ... just a suggestion.

I will admit - I had never heard about these "pants" before and I am just curious if the story is real and when this find supposedly occurred. I dont know anything about this -

I’m surprised that someone (maybe georger) wasn’t all over this! Ok. Damnit! It did not escape my attention. I assure you. Made a post or two about it ..... waaaay back. Then let it drop from public view. Snow said a few things about it. It's yours to do! Go for it! I think Ckret even commented about it. will check my notes ... Jo posted a bit about it ... it got a lot of people's attention. Ckret put a lid on it (I say smiling

Good point Jo. You're thinking! So they must have sold the coin collection. No one would hold onto to it, and pay the estate tax out of their pocket (who would have that kind of cash around..unless they were into meth labs maybe) I tend to think the socalled coin and stamp collection have been wildly over valued by ... Mr. Blevins. Why? It goes to assets and a place some portion of $200k could go to (over time?). Firstly, stamp and coin collections regularly get over valued for tax & insurance purposes. So who appraised this collection - ever? Blevins has never given an amount he claims the collection was worth or anything about the exact contents of the collection. So until more facts are given, the socalled VALUE of the collection is merely an unproved statement on Blevins' part. (I have a bridge I will sell for 1 mil. Its "assessed" value is zero!) In addition, who would trade rare Cooper dollars for a meager stamp and coin collection whose worth was less than 1 million dollars. Those bills would be worth well over 1 million dollars ... in negotiated worth. Kenny was either an idiot or uneducated if he traded his Cooper dollars for mere flotsam.. or for mere coins and stamps he could play with late at late? Blevins/Porteous have not presented one fact that Kenneth Christiansen knew anything about stamps and coins, ever dealt with anyone specific in the acquisition of atamps and coins, or how Kenny is supposed to have acquired this valuable collection, over time? Things like that leave a wide paper trail. Where is the paperwork, Robert. ? Tell me one item which has value that was in Kenny's collection... give me the date he aquired the item and the place ...

well said.

I keep wondering what Blevins' angle is. There can't be much money in play. So WTF? I think more than Lyle's nickle ($495..) he also dropped an idea on everyone .... the idea of a movie. These NYCity guys are slick and don't miss a thing. Lyle unwittingly delivered the script, for a movie about a former NWA employee no less!. One of Blevins' first claims was: 'The FBI never investigated Kenny/Watson'. Blevins' claim remains unproved and never will be proved outright, because the FBI won't talk to Blevins etal. Next step: go out and investigate which could be cover for 'build the script'. You cloud it more by accusing other sleuths of being rank incompetents 'who dont hve the truth'. (Hell I thought Blegvbins said this was a THEORY!?) Lyle dropped a script for free. Will the major movie ever get made. Most thinking people think "No" because the burden of proof is much higher (than anything the History Channel demands). The History Channel routinely says right out front: "This is only speculation ..." But the fact appears to be: 'they contacted four others before considering Blevins. Blevins was the bottom of the barrel?'. Geof Gray broke the story. Where does Geof stand in all of this? Did Porteous have a contract with Lyle? Blevins is big on contracts and secrecy. If there are NO real facts to keep secret then it must be a contract, or the promise of a contract, or the search for a screen writer .... but screen writers talk! Woooooops. Cat walks out of bag. Blevins is a lot like Lyle. Lyle dropped his story line and his script free. Damn. Blevins came here to promote his script also, out of courtesy, being a nice guy, because the world badly wanted to know and 'we' were just dying to know? There is an even larger element working in the background, that I am not going to talk about. It's not the 40th anniversary per se... Blevins is well aware of that or if he is not then he trully is out of touch and stumbling around .. Im not going to say more but just sit here and watch. Whose woods these are I think I know, his house is in the village though. He will not mind us stopping here - to watch his woods fill up with snow.

#3 - In two separate and unrelated interviews, both 'Dawn' and 'Helen', who knew Kenny well, said they suspected from the start that Kenny was the hijacker. A: From the start of what? Is there proof they ever talked about it together? And like the people Christiansen worked with at the airline, they also wondered why Kenny NEVER spoke of the hijacking, ever...even when everyone else was abuzz about it. A: So the people Kenny worked with were with him 24 hours a day for the rest of his life ? Who cares what "everyone else" is doing. And what did Kenny talk about in front of these people? What other important acts of his life did he NEVER talk about in front of them ... while THEY were gossiping incessantly? They described it as 'strange'. *Helen said she always thought the FBI would speak to both Watson and Christiansen about the hijacking, and wondered why they never did. (*From her October 4 interview) A: How do you know the FBI and NWA Security didnt speak to them and check them out? Were THEY spoken to and checked out, by who? Could it be HELEN had a sexual hangup and was too curious about two gay men? Through all of this you fail to establish WHY or what there is about Kenny and Watson that has Helen SO ALARMED! And if Helen and Byrd were SO ALARMED! why didnt they dosomerhing about it and call the FBI or give the tip to NWA Security ... they are duty bound to do that by virtue of their contract! Once again, Kenny (and you) fail the sniff test. Once again, its all a Theory. Why do you argue theories so strenously if its only a theory, on your part? Oh, in order to establish a Theory you must argue strenously, analytically, because its going to be published in the revised-revised-revised version? Don't you need a few facts that have relational significance in order to have a theory? I mean what does the price of eggs in Helen's pantry have to do with Kenny getting his egg basket filled? Or, if Kenny gets his eggs but Helen gets no eggs then there must be something WRONG with Kenny. Sounds to me like Helen needs an Egg Therapist? And anyone could go through this same test with every point you bring up. Like Jo, the list stays the same but the features in the list keep changing. Jo went to Washington to perfect her Duane story. I think you need to go to Denmark or Florida to perfect your Kenny story? Tell the truth: werent four other people contacted by the History Channel before you were even considered?

I wont comment except to say I think it took a lot of courage for you to make this trip. You are really something! Most people wouldnt venture out alone like this. Take care. GB.

What IS that thang Nexus? An ignitron? Are you building a WMD? I loved Georger's 11 meter story. Chip off the old block. Where is Ckret? I want him to get some Amboy chute info. I suppose Petes DNA wasn't a match for the tie partials. I just wonder how the FBI is so sure the tie DNA was Coopers? 377 In case anyone is wondering I did take steps to isolate my radio from my little boy ... no electrocutions or fires in my house!

well the guy has a real-life vita 20 miles long. Ive only known a few people like that in my life. They were all schizophrenic (paranoid type). Borderline types can squeak through, but the symptoms still manifest usually in harmless renditions. Yes, there is 'something' about Petey .... good veins and low blood pressure? Amazing set of accomplishments.

Began with a Tempo-I. And an amp. Yagis later I come down one morning to find my three year old yacking with some guy in Honolulu... I had forgotten to turn my radio off. Beni had watched and knew how to press all the buttons! He hears me coming and turns around in a flash (Im int rouble look still holding the mike) and he says to the guy in Hawaii 'my dad is coming do you want to talk to him?' ... on 11 meters. So I plop down in ym big chair my son crawls up on my lap, and we talk to the guy in Honolulu .... wife comes in and asks what we want for breakfast and if Beni has been talking to another one ... another one? I ask. Damn! the good ole days of 11 meters... We all have stories don;t we!

This is a reference to Skipp Porteous. Skipp thought Brent was a woman at first, and then Brent corrected him in a comment at Amazon. I would say the second part is the MOST correct. (laughs) That's proof enough for me. Case closed. Next? 377 10-fer on that 377 Mountain Man. Guess we kin put dat one ta sleep, yepper. Puts the dindar on the dondar and the hat on the Monkey. See ya on far side of dreams soon ... keep rollin. 88s! dit dah dit dah dit dah .. Tosaw scores agin! Damn that kid can run!

You are correct about this, but then if you don't you can't blame people for not taking you seriously. You could be just some sixth-grader from Kankakee, Illinois with a computer. Not you personally, but anyone who snipes at you in anonymity. The real point here is that I answered the freefall question about Kenny as honestly as I could. Or, that you made the freefall assertion in the first place. These are issues of fact - if facts have anything to do with any of this.

Are you kidding me? There are like 450+ pages of stuff on this thread. No, I didn't 'look it up'. I LIVE in Washington, and even a dummy like me knows there's a lot more ground down below than rivers. It was common sense to say the odds were against a water landing. Pilfering? Plagiarism is both stupid and illegal. Everyone knows I like Cory Doctorow, but I also respect copyright completely. Sure as a purely random event the 'randomised odds' favour land mass vs water. But the time and place of the drop affect the odds, dont they? And the specific event we are interested in is the DROP, not the whole damned flight - correct? So the calculation of odds must concern only that portion of the flight where a DROP may occur - correct? That, as it happens, changes the ratio of land mass to water (area) under or near the plane. Correct? One early calculation (by X) in fact had a rather large estimate Cooper landed in Lake Merwin so they dragged Lake Merwin first (or very nearly first)? The closer the drop zone moves toward Columbia, in the selected drop time frame, the higher the probability of a water or water-basin landing, based on the ratio of land to water in that window. Correct? So, your: "It was common sense to say the odds were against a water landing." turns out to be nonapplicable in any meaningful application? As for your jumping in with your lecture without knowing why I was even bringing up a water drop issue, ie as context to something else you cut off from being discussed, it is a bit premature on your part dont you think? I realise you arent a mind reader but Maybe you should listen more and talk less? I am really tired of your lectures and having to respond to your attacks. Go bicker with somebody else for a change ???

Why should I go 'look it up'? It's YOUR odds, look it up yourself and post it if you wish. Or are you claiming the chances of a water landing are greater? Doesn't really fit the facts. What number is that? You didn't SAY the number. Sure it did. Doesn't mean everything on it is accurate, does it? So you did look it up, how else would you say "its YOUR odds"? So why are you presenting it as your idea? A little plagarism maybe? What it means is your plan is to pilfer and take over this group. Wasnt that your original mission coming here? Fuck you Blevins. and fuck off. My estimate is you dont have the intelligence to be a writer of any merit, much less an investigator. Go back to your day job (housecleaning). Stop schleping! shlo mitov. todah.

I have another point for all you water-landing buffs. If you compare the square mileage of the possible jump zone and factor in the actual square mileage of that in areas covered by water, the land is a much more likely landing spot. In other words, the odds are very high against a water landing. Hey Einstein, statistical odds were calculated long ago here and posted - go look it up. If you have a better number present it! Believe it or not, this thread did exist before you got here.

No idea why he took it.. but under a stressful situation even a training reserve might get missed and used if it looked like something he was used to. I think he chose the main canopy well because as I have said before a round military parachute is a whole lot easier to land in the trees than any high performance canopy... It is what I would choose and I have 2 intentional tree landings under a C-9 . I have no idea how deep into the water you would go but I doubt you would go all the way to the bottom of the Columbia River channel at 45' maintained depth. I do not think I ever went deeper than 15 feet jumping off of the cliff at the quarry and that was about a 65' wall. Into mud under a streamer.. no idea.. but I have watched a guy go in under a streamer, into dirt in a soft field and he only punched his leg bones down thru the sides of his tenny runners about knee deep Thanks Amazon. G.

Amazon should chime in cause she trained guys for this stuff. I met a skydiver, very good jumper, who during his skydiving carrer had to do an ejection over water at his day job, Navy pilot. With all his jump experience and military training he damned near drowned. He said it was a very humbling experience. There used to be fatalities in lake jumps when skydivers would cut away or slip out of their harnesses thinking they were 10 or 20 feet above the water and they were actually hundreds of feet up. Its VERY hard to judge height above open water. Water landings in perfect warm weather daytime conditions are tricky. In worse conditions they can be extremely hazardous. Hey G, susnpots are coming back. Fire up that HF rig. 377 Good info - hope Aamazon comes and gives us a lecture ... rig is on every night on 40. (cw) I LUV water landings