georger

Source please. Somewhere I read or heard that remark prior to Blevins making this post. Perhaps it was in a prior post he himself made. Maybe it is in some of the research material I have, but at one time I have READ this statement before. only shows how dumb he was that he didnt check TYPE of 727! No engineer this Cooper!

From this we can now deduce: Everyone looks like Cooper. Its not what I wanted to hear (actually read) but I accept it. It comes with the territory, like the plague.

Source please. Slight correction. He asked the question while in the act of purchasing the ticket. See Himmelsbach's book, page 13, fifth line from the top. As quoted in the book: "O.K. Give me a one-way ticket. That's a 727 isn't it?" Robert From this passage alone we can deduce: *he had a cabin on the Washougal. *he had another cabin on Ken Lake! *he was an advisor at Boeing. *he was Dick P's boss at Boeing. *he was Greg F's boss at Boeing. *he knows crows from ravens. *hijackers do not buy two way tickets. *if its in Himmelsbach's book it's true. *he did not ask if it was a 727-100 with the ducted Type 37B fold down toilet !!!!

Since I only have dial up - I couldn't isolate the pictures of her father... attached - no comment

Just a coincidence that he fits the description and hasn't been heard from since 1971. What colour were his eyes? The correct answer is: Dark piercing brown. Any other distinguishing facial features like facial warts, moles, etc, like Cooper had?

I thought Richard Tosaw died! Apparently not.

is this the recipe forum? Looking for a good chunky pizza recipe.

In an early statement you made you were somewhat critical of the Citizens Science Group. Could you expand on this? What would you have liked the CSG to do, results you expected or wanted, etc ? This is a serious question if you care to elaborate your previous comments - this isnt a trick question and you will not be graded. Im looking for input ... G Need input there are some nice old rail maps at http://www.sos.wa.gov/history/maps_list.aspx Download the viewer on the website; it instals easily and works seamlessly ... enjoy.

In an early statement you made you were somewhat critical of the Citizens Science Group. Could you expand on this? What would you have liked the CSG to do, results you expected or wanted, etc ? This is a serious question if you care to elaborate your previous comments - this isnt a trick question and you will not be graded. Im looking for input ... G Need input funny. true.

one that makes me believe In an early statement you made you were somewhat critical of the Citizens Science Group. Could you expand on this? What would you have liked the CSG to do, results you expected or wanted, etc ? This is a serious question if you care to elaborate your previous comments - this isnt a trick question and you will not be graded. Im looking for input ... G

It sure would be hard to egress undetected from your landing area and get back to civilization without getting caught unless you had help from an accomplice. There is another possibility though. Gossett was in the Army (reserves?) and could have jumped into Ft Lewis (very unilkely to be noticed at night) and blended in. He might have even left a car there and a uniform. Wasn't Ft Lewis consistent with a very early jump post takeoff? I don't see convincing evidence that Gossett was Cooper, but there are viable Norjack escape plans that could have been pulled off without an accomplice. If Gossett was Cooper his Ft Lewis jump plan didnt work out because the pilots would not take off with the stairs lowered. By the time Cooper got the stairs lowered post takeoff the plane was far away from Ft Lewis. 377 Cooper had an argument with Rataczak about the lowering of the stairs before take-off. Rataczak claimed that they couldn't take-off with the stairs in a partial down position. Cooper finally said to take-off with them up but he told Tina that he knew the airplane could take-off with them down. The airliner took off towards the south and, about the time it rotated, it passed within about 1000 feet laterally of the Seattle VORTAC from which V-23 runs to the Toledo area. In proceeding along the centerline of V-23, the airliner would have passed about 1 or 2 statute miles east of McChord AFB base at about 23 statute miles from the SEA VORTAC. About 5 statute miles further along V-23, the airplane would have passed about 5 statute miles east of Gray AAF at Fort Lewis. Then as it continued along V-23, it would have passed to the east of several restricted areas that are probably part of the Fort Lewis complex. The boundaries of Fort Lewis are not shown on any map I have, but it appears that from about the McChord AFB area there is nothing in the way of civilization (even today) that Cooper would have to avoid until he got to the Toledo area. The airplane probably passed McChord about 7 minutes after take-off, and from that point Cooper would have a "window" of about 10-15 minutes to jump and land in a relatively unpopulated area from which he could probably easily slip through the brush into Fort Lewis. So his goal may have been to land in the Fort Lewis area after dark and that may have been one reason for selecting this specific flight. Since sunset in Seattle that day was a number of minutes before 5:00 PM, and Cooper specified that the money was to be there at a time that was just after sunset, he probably planned to do a night jump all along. But giving in to Rataczak, in order to get the airplane flying again, loused up a jump into the Fort Lewis area. Robert If he is stationed or employed at Ft Lewis they have a photo ID, his finger prints, a blood workup, a phsysical description (medical file), etc. But lets forget all of that for a moment... Let's assume he has some knowledge. He has asked for Mexico City. He knows that is impossible. They tell him Reno. Given the settings he has asked for he knows fuel is still an issue even to Reno. Has he now almost assured himself an interior route (shorter) vs. a coastal route to Reno? If his goal is Ft Lewis and he misses it, what is his next best option given visibility issues? (Towait for Vancouver-Portland and bail there?) The railroad line at Vancouver will take him right back north to Ft Lewis. But, given the specs having been decided and conveyed to Cooper which includes Reno and a fuel issue, does Cooper know its going to be an interior route like V23 vs a coastal route? There were other flights and other routes he could have hijacked that day.

It sure would be hard to egress undetected from your landing area and get back to civilization without getting caught unless you had help from an accomplice. There is another possibility though. Gossett was in the Army (reserves?) and could have jumped into Ft Lewis (very unilkely to be noticed at night) and blended in. He might have even left a car there and a uniform. Wasn't Ft Lewis consistent with a very early jump post takeoff? I don't see convincing evidence that Gossett was Cooper, but there are viable Norjack escape plans that could have been pulled off without an accomplice. If Gossett was Cooper his Ft Lewis jump plan didnt work out because the pilots would not take off with the stairs lowered. By the time Cooper got the stairs lowered post takeoff the plane was far away from Ft Lewis. 377 Cooper had an argument with Rataczak about the lowering of the stairs before take-off. Rataczak claimed that they couldn't take-off with the stairs in a partial down position. Cooper finally said to take-off with them up but he told Tina that he knew the airplane could take-off with them down. The airliner took off towards the south and, about the time it rotated, it passed within about 1000 feet laterally of the Seattle VORTAC from which V-23 runs to the Toledo area. In proceeding along the centerline of V-23, the airliner would have passed about 1 or 2 statute miles east of McChord AFB base at about 23 statute miles from the SEA VORTAC. About 5 statute miles further along V-23, the airplane would have passed about 5 statute miles east of Gray AAF at Fort Lewis. Then as it continued along V-23, it would have passed to the east of several restricted areas that are probably part of the Fort Lewis complex. The boundaries of Fort Lewis are not shown on any map I have, but it appears that from about the McChord AFB area there is nothing in the way of civilization (even today) that Cooper would have to avoid until he got to the Toledo area. The airplane probably passed McChord about 7 minutes after take-off, and from that point Cooper would have a "window" of about 10-15 minutes to jump and land in a relatively unpopulated area from which he could probably easily slip through the brush into Fort Lewis. So his goal may have been to land in the Fort Lewis area after dark and that may have been one reason for selecting this specific flight. Since sunset in Seattle that day was a number of minutes before 5:00 PM, and Cooper specified that the money was to be there at a time that was just after sunset, he probably planned to do a night jump all along. But giving in to Rataczak, in order to get the airplane flying again, loused up a jump into the Fort Lewis area. Robert All except for one thing: he has not specified a route to take, regardless of the stair issue. For all he knows (and we know) they were headed out to the coast intending to go south, on a low elevation route. How could he have guessed they would take V23 or go anywhere near Ft. Lewis? He couldnt specify that. That would have tipped somebody off, potentially. How does he assure he's going to be on V23 without specifying it, if that was his desire? BTW, to me the idea he intended to bail asap after take off, near Seattle, is bogus. To do that is to jump in the very area where law enforcement is active and thickest. ??

Beautiful! Holy crap! Just beautful!!!!!

The placard from the 727 was found in a cemetery. . That would be news to me if true. We have someone here who can probably answer this.

Still don't know why the SAGE system wasn't used for the intercept. F 106s had it. SAGE allowed ground based USAF radar and computers to control the F106's autpilot and steer it to a perfect target intercept. A two way data link was established between the F106 and the SAGE ground station. As I recall a lumbering turboprop driven C 130 Herc transport was the only Air Force plane that actually intercepted and followed the 727. That must have really embarrased the F106 wing at McChord. 377 It was what it was. Everyone realised the F106s were not the perfect tool - had limitations (serious limitations). The pilots were under strict orders with protocols to follow. Nobody wanted a collision. The narrow nose radar windows of 106s presented a practical limitation coupled with risk. The 106s had to adopt a defensive posture in case 305 would suddenly blow up. .... etc. They did the best they could do. Sage radar was involved. The controler was very busy so say the least. That is the picture I have.

Correct. Remember the Soviet intercept of Korean Airlines flight 007? It gets dicey in cloudy conditions. One of a pair of USAF jets dispatched to do a practice intercept of a civilian plane off the East Coast in clouds collided with the target and caused it to crash killing all aboard. The interceptor was able to return to base where the ground crew found parts of human scalps embedded in wing seams. 377 see Snow's post #Jun 2, 2008, 1:10 PM Post #1958 of 19190 (5495 views) In addition: The further south 305 & the 106s got the worse radar contact from McChord became - the T33s were ordered up from PDX FAST. Now the controller is having to help manage them also. The F106s approached from the North at 20k feet and 10 miles out on a parallel course with 305 almost "on top of" V23. The 106s passed over 305 and were vectored around in a wide arc so they could come back in and adjust 1000 feet above and 5 miles behind 305, slightly east of 305 still flying almost on top of of V23. One F106 reported having brief visuals on 305. but both 106s were having problems keeping 305 in their narrow radar cone(s) and staying behind ....... the 106s were relieved and the T33s made their intercept. Himmelsbach's description sounds basically accurate. Neither 106 saw Cooper bail or had him on radar at any time. The 106s "were having a helluva time holding their positions, it almost became critical" until they were relieved and the T33s came in. I dont believe the 106s were 'under' 305s altitude at any time.

Real skydivers can be vicious cannibals who eat members of their own tribe. I think every dropzone moderator has been attacked, ridiculed and provoked often for no good reason. It's a thankless task being a kennel keeper at a pit bull diet farm. I actually think Quade would make a fine appellate judge. He sentences too harshly to be considered a fair trial judge. He does have a certain Solomonic quality in his reign as a moderator. Do you see it Georger? 377 Yes I want Snow back but damnit I dont have any say in any event.... Snow brought some of this on himself,, but I do believe in redemptive mercy in the hands of a just and merciful God!

Kenny sent a lot of letters home to mother between about 1961 until the year of the hijacking. After that, he didn't write home much. Many of the letters express his frustration with the airline, i.e. the constant strikes, the low pay, as well as having to take odd jobs like digging for a construction company in Seattle or picking apples in season. And he was supposed to be a purser for NWA, a position of at least a modicum of respect. But he wasn't getting that. They put him through the training program, sent him overseas on the Orient routes 2 or 3 times a month, and ten years after his rehire he was still barely 'making it'. He wasn't alone. Not too many folks made a decent living with NWA, not back then. Maybe the pilots. Former NWA employees who worked with KC said the same three things about him: 1) He was a quiet guy, basically unhappy with the airline, and seldom attended the union meetings. 2) You hardly noticed him. 3) After the hijacking, although everyone at NWA in Seattle was buzzing like crazy about what happened, (it was the sole topic of discussion at work) Kenny was the only one who avoided talking about it. His co-workers described this as 'strange'. Not just one employee...every one that was interviewed who knew him. However, none of them thought for a moment he could be the hijacker. Speculation: I don't think for a moment (if he was the guy) that Kenny thought the whole idea up on his own. 'Mike Watson,' his good buddy and general all-around crook, had a hand in it. You can almost see how it might have happened. Mike no longer works for the airline, but Kenny does. Mike's heard about cash payouts for hijackings, it is big news. He puts up the idea to Kenny. We know that Kenny (temporarily) was staying at the Watson's place in Bonney Lake over the summer of 1971, even though he had the apartment in Sumner. Mike, 'Katy Watson,' and even our new witness 'Helen J' told us this. This is when we believe the planning took place. You are right when you say direct evidence is needed here. Oh, yes. Trust me...I have not given up on this. I think perhaps the TV show will either end up proving or disproving the KC case one way or another. Not the show itself, but what happens AFTERWARD. In a way, I am excited to see what might happen, that is, if a viable witness will step forward. You never know. If KC were finally proven to NOT be the guy, I would be okay with it. He's a major suspect and someone needed to look into his life in depth. You give it your best shot. If he isn't Cooper, at least that might narrow the field and I would think I had done my job. a lot of people were pissed and acting out - economy rotten, Vietnam, protests, etc. There were nightly protests in my home town with bombs going off, fires, every window in the business district broken almost nightly, ....... a mess. (Even the Mormons were acting out!) So in that regard Kenny was just one of the crowd of potential actors. This was 1971. It sounds like even though quiet, Kenny was still not withdrawn ... he must have had a social life of some kind? I dont get the picture of a seathing psychopath writing a manifesto hiding in the woods, or a semi social withdrawn person hatching a plot? Maybe Im missing something? I think there has to be some specific spark which ignites an underlying rage which then translates into concrete planning, and execution ...

well, 300k for a coin collection is large for an ordinary person. I wonder what the content was that came to this 'selling' value. Normally most buyers wont offer more than 40% of the catalog value of a coin collection (less on stamps), so they either sold the collection to a friend or if sold to a dealer the collection had a catalog value at least twice the purchase value. (You can certify what Im saying with any legitimate stamp or coin dealer of which there are several in Seattle). 400k in the bank ... he had a nice little estate. He must have spent time on his collection and known something about what to collect or he had an advisor. A collection of that value requires time to assemble. Robert, none of this means he was Cooper. You know that. It does mean something about Kenny however and would tie into his upbringing. He probably did not spend anything like what the final value of his collection became due to inflation. A few gold coins worth $500 in the fifties could have been worth ten thousand each by the 1990s, for example. Farflung touched on this point (building estates) earlier. You have to 'put him on the plane' or tie him directly to some unimpeachable piece of evidence in the Cooper case. Thats the burden of proof. If his prints match any of the prints found at Reno then he was there. You know the routine. That is the burden of proof. Larry must think (just guessing) that Dan Cooper on a comic and Dan Cooper on a ticket are just too much of a coincidence to ignore. Farflung has mentioned at least one more Dan Cooper in literature. Max Gunther tried to postulate a literary-philosophical context for Cooper in which Cooper was a disaffected socialist Robin Hood. (Gunther started a small cult ideology with that approach). Cooper said he had a grudge. What was Kenny's grudge? As for me I look for hard evidence. Im all about that, or would like to think so. I am as baffled by the last 37+ years as I am the crime itself.

I am glad you've finally admitted your ruse. I was fairly certain you wouldn't be able to resist doing so. Sadly, now I have to ban this name as well. Low Pull? I dont think he pulled anything out except a middle finger. Can't we let Snow back in if his inputs are automatically scrubbed by a software insult filter? Do such things exist? Just kdding Quade, I know you are unrelenting and so, apparently, is Snowmman. 377 BTW Snow never intended to start a cult with his Dan Cooper comic find. That is Larry's doing (for better or worse). We both knew from the beginning that the Dan Cooper features were no more prolific than a few features spread over time within Tintin, and not too widely distributed at first. Snow and I both exhausted hours finding links and tracking issues, distribution channels, etc etc etc... on the prospect that someboy might make more out of this than was warranted. Well... you know the rest. There is no proof whatever that Dan Cooper or anyone else we know of had any specific link to Weinberg's Dan Cooper ... so whatever Larry thinks he is pursuing its his affair and I know for a fact other agents have other ideas they think are worth spending their time on. Nuff said. Draw your own conclusions - you will anyway. The power of the Dan Cooper comic, as I see it, is the name. It is specific. DAN COOPER. The name the perp signed in with on entry. Where in hell did he pull that name from? Jerry Thomas also thinks there is some significance in the name. Whatever the link is (if any) it escapes me completely ...

Or, did snowmman = NexusofCivility ? for Pete's sake! Snowmmman WAS Nexus. I knew it the instant it appeared. Not bragging, just knew it, like I know footracks in the Snow. It had the same footprint, ie. linguistics. Same phrases used ... same tactical approach ... etc. Anyone who stands twice as tall intellectually has be to be Snowmman or his brother (from all those who have ever posted here or who might)? Thats how I knew... he was like a leopard stalking his target with words and intention(s) ... and he was too polite which is the funniest part. (Nobody but Snow is THAT polite without a reason!)

Well... hard as it is to believe I share this basic sentiment, as far as it applies to offering a place for 'the underclass' to discuss their Cooper wash, across the back fense so to speak. Hosting authors and rabid pushers of candidates is a matter of a different stripe completely; you know this has the potential for trouble and incivility automatically. That tends to bring out thje worst in me after a while, and I admit it. I have my own prejudices and biases and 'affiliations' to protect. But I readily admit it. (The candidate pushers wont admit it; in my estimation.) I would not have banned Snow for life, but only for a couple of months, and then see how it went. Because we all know Snow can be civil when he wants to be. I miss Snow's intlellect. So, I now have that off my chest. I was sorry to see Snow go ........ forever? That just doesn't make sense to me. That anyone would actually have to defend this thread against skydivers surprises me - a lot! I like skydivers as a group. Some of my best friends are skydivers. Hell two of my sons are "skydivers" and certified "divers" (who film no less). So in order for me to turn on skydivers I would have to turn on my own family and community! I cannot image real skydivers turning on this thread or Quade ... whatever is going on. So Quade has my thanks also ... I guess ... without even knowing what all of the hu'bub is (behind the scenes). As a group I think skydivers are a pretty dignified group. Dignity may be all anyone here is asking for? Thanks, G

One might ask that same question about anybody anywhere. While some people in this forum do seem to have some pretty strange motives, that doesn't invalidate their presence here. They can only do that themselves by attacking others. Something you might want to consider when you continually press people to explain themselves and don't get an answer you want. Bullies come in many forms. I always look for the guy carrying a meat axe, in a flower shop or a day care.