georger

We agree wholeheartedly on this point. I have two reasons for believing this is probably the way he did it. 1) Because the stairs did not drop fully after deployment. This means he would have to use his own weight to make them go down, which also means he probably BACKED down the stairs. As I've said before, going forward while attempting to do this would be crazy. You would have to lean forward, and packing all that load. Meanwhile, the stairs are dropping as you go. Imagine yourself looking at that 24-36 inch gap when the stairs opened. Two or three feet open. What the heck do you do? Lean way over and try to make your way down? No way. That's just asking to be thrown down to the bottom of the stairs as soon as they start to drop from your weight. You back down, hanging onto the rail. Even doing it THIS way, you have to imagine that Cooper was probably scared as hell, especially with all the engine blast. He may not have expected the stairs to only partially open when he deployed them. ("F#!k! What the hell?") Ha ha. Big surprise, I'm sure. Then it's all about, 'what do I do now?' 2) Pulling from the end of the stairs, now that you have backed down, and the stairs have opened, makes sense. Also...if you WERE a paratrooper, this would be a lot like a static line jump. Safer, easier. I just don't buy the leap off the stairs scenario at all. If he did, he was already pulling the ripcord. Yes and there is equally good novice logic for NOT pulling off the stairs, especially if they arent full open - namely, that big thing right above his head expelling steel-furnace-hot gas and displacing oceans of air per micro-second sounding like ten Niagra Falls; the ENGINE! He might be affraid this engine would suck up any chute pulled right off the stairs, up into its vortex and - Sayonara. One crispy fried chute and no Cooper. He has to assume the chute will be pulled straight out the back and not up into those engines. He may not be willing to make such an assumption if he is a novice? Better to be free of the plane than risk an engine suckup and fry job! Compared to your fears of falling off spongy stairs, that engine is a vastly greater concern, to a novice. Clearing those engines is a far more obvious concern. Better to schlep off the stars or through the hole and be free of the plane, then pull. Its a problem to try and think for Cooper, in any event.

No problem Robert. Have a great Holiday season and a prosperous New Year. Our best to you and yours. G.

His report has always puzzled me. 377 It should. There is no data to even suggest a wind of 80 knots from the southeast at 14,000 feet that night. All available data indicates that the wind from the ground to 10,000 feet was from a south to southwesterly direction. At 10,000 feet it was from the southwest at no more than 30 knots. While I respect your Mensa card, I want to see a report? Why would H include this in his book? Just to titilate the world? So, you are saying No Turbulence period. Is this what you are saying? Im not arguing. I have no opinion! Just wanna know! Lacking any report, can you share youre reasoning process - ?

Sailshaw, What is the source of your statement that "the FBI tells us" that the cloud layer extended from 5,000 feet to 10,000 feet? I presume that you are using "us" in the Royal sense since the FBI has apparently not made that statement to anyone else. In reality, there is nothing in the extant data that gives the altitude of the cloud tops. If in fact the FBI did make such a statement to you, then you should know that such a cloud layer would completely invalidate your original claim that Cooper could see the lights of Portland well enough to determine a jump point so that he could land adjacent to the Portland airport. Again, I refer you to the posts of 377, Quade, and others concerning the usefullness of your "wind on his body" theory. Which wind on body? _Wind from forward motion, _wind from falling, _a third weak force wind from any active weather pattern, _and wind resistence from any tumbling-spinning. Frame of refenece with respect to which wind? All of this is happening in time. With allof these different forces happening almost simultaneously how does the subject link into any single frame of reference quickly enought o matter? So a poll is required! We need a chart of the probability of survival under these conditions as a function of training-experience? Percent % who would survive this jump under these conditions: _ skydivers with 30+ years experience. _ skydivers with less than 30 years experience. _ skydivers with less than 10 years experience. _ skydivers with 1 year experience. _ skydivers with no experience. _ pudknockers with 30+ years experience _ pudknockers . . . _ etc

Ckret sayed: Jan 30, 2008, 5:00 AM Post #1547 of 1694 (1569 views) Posts: 522 Re: [labrys] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to] ________________________________________ In regards to the jump, we no it can be done (McCoy and others) but can it be done under the conditions Cooper did it. Its not just 15 MPH winds it's almost 30 MPH winds at 10,000 feet and its not just rain and clouds it's freezing rain at 200 mph. If you tried to recreate this jump, find a night under these conditions with his equipment, would the jump be sanctioned by any governing body? if not why? I know we could debate forever the above and still get no where so lets move forward. " Georger says: _isnt it strange there are no formal reports? _Ckret got his info from the "larger file" . . . _no pilots saved their observation of condx that nite. _nobody looked up that night and made notes. _no astronomers were working that night. _no racoons could see the Moonlight that night _Rat never said: I can see the Moon in the south. _Cooper never said: I see Vega and Altair... _Its was turbulence and fog-ice & thunder snow. _no diaries made note of the weather that night _helicopter pilots were grounded due to weather and kept their lights off on purpose, flew blind. _there were no collissions with lighted towers ... _all records have been lost _Cooper sacked the galley, not turbulence... _it was a LaNina year. _no FBI report recorded condxz that night _Cooper's chute iced shut instantly at bailout _Bohan's report never happened and is a lie - _H's book mentions "turbulence" to trick people. _FBi people cannot be trusted. _Mensa trumps all data or lack of data. _Babies must be reborn to become skydivers. _no wx satellites were working that night. _the Larger file is bigger than the smaller file, but smaller than the Very Large larger file. Only Mensa people can see it and read it! _credentils are required to see Santa.

Jo, You can not prove he lied to you without evaluating his credentials! So WHUFFO you making that demand in the first place! The hollydays always brings out the BEST in people.

Well, you have no proof that Mel Wilson was not Cooper and the FBI cannot explain what happened to him after his disappearance. By your own logic, then, Mel Wilson must have been Cooper. And every time you bring up this stupid argument I will post this counter-argument. Maybe it will eventually sink in as to how ridiculous your reasoning is. Sorry: Jo is in this to win. Not to reason or even debate. If she can win by what others are calling 'debate' then all the better. Its their mistake, not hers. Jo, is in this win, and that is all. Her logic is simple and consistent since day one. What constitues a win for Jo? She hasnt decided yet! And that is why this bogged down long ago and will continue as long as possible. So give it three more years and see where things are then.

Let's face facts here. . Yes! You sir, you are beating a dead horse. Accordingly, you have been turned in to the SPCA.

Hominid & Georger, Carr did post some weather information for the Orchards area early on this present thread. I don't remember the specific details right off but they are consistent with the numbers and wind direction I used. And if I remember correctly, Carr did not have any winds or weather above 5000 feet. And I don't specifically remember him saying anything about 30 MPH winds aloft from anywhere. . Here is the (lost) Ckret post Hominid is referring to, I think. Ckret PM Friend Jumps License In sport : Jan 30, 2008, 5:00 AM Post #1547 of 1694 (1569 views) Copy Shortcut Registered: Sep 7, 2007 Posts: 522 Re: [labrys] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to] ________________________________________ We put Coopers total weight that night at 230 lbs. In regards to the jump, we no it can be done (McCoy and others) but can it be done under the conditions Cooper did it. Its not just 15 MPH winds it's almost 30 MPH winds at 10,000 feet and its not just rain and clouds it's freezing rain at 200 mph. If you tried to recreate this jump, find a night under these conditions with his equipment, would the jump be sanctioned by any governing body? if not why? I know we could debate forever the above and still get no where so lets move forward. However, based on what we know: his age, 45 to 50, puts him out of the general population of sport jumpers of the day, his request for "two front chutes and two back chutes" puts his "lingo" out of a sports jumper. His cavalier attitude of equipment (chutes and clothing) choice makes it seem as if he doesn't realize the challenge he is facing. He new some things about the aircraft but not as much as he thought he did. I believe all of these things, plus many more discussed here, add up to an inexperienced jumper making a jump that would challenge the most experienced. Could he have beat the odds? Sure. Finding nothing points as much to making it as it does to not. Finding a portion of the money in the condition it was found I think tips the scale to not but even still does not mean its so. And lastly, I hope he did make it and he is alive. DB WHERE ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!

Didnt Norman have to sue to get the chute back? That is documentation. But exactly from who did the FBI get these chutes. Two had to have come from Norman; he owned them and were in his possession. Meanwhile Cossey refuses to talk about it, beinghis natural helpful self! Two came from the skydive school where Cossey was a packer-instructor - school name I can never remember (Issaqua?). So two came from Norman. Two from Issaqua (sp?).

So... thousands did it in the war from any airplane in any configuration, on fire and going who knows how fast. Then you have the Cooper copycats that also seemed to have no problem pulling the handle at the appropriate time. But your local hero, Cooper, the FBI is sure this ONE GUY boarded the plane with intent to jump but died on impact because he was a was a no pull/couldnt pull/never pulled/failed to pull/opposed to pulling/afraid to pull/politically opposed to pulling/suffered from a dysfunction couldnt get it out no pull?!?! Really?!?!?! I am still waiting for the experienced skydiver to make a post and state that they hold this opinion, that the body and unopened rig are still laying out there today exactly where they hit. I was told that my poll was woefully flawed. But so far I dont find anyone that is willing to publicly exert an opinion that claims that they believe that this was in fact the case. See attached image of Q5. Yours above is the reason I brought up "IQ" last evening. The assumption being: anyone with an average IQ or even below, could schlep their way through, wore clothes of his choice and knew he was wearing clothes of that nature still intent on the jump (at that time of year etc). He knew where Tacoma was, ordered 15* flaps, and didnt realise the weather and his clothes? There has to be a better explanation than "novice/idiot".

But DB Cooper wasn't wearing a bail out rig. He was wearing a rig for sport jumping. Do we know, for instance, if the parachute in question had a free bag or if it had been modified? Modify the parachute and it is no longer the same item with the same reliability of opening. Just an aside: this has become a very intreresting captivating series of posts - had you not taken thje bull by the horns last night I wonder if this would even be happening. So thanks, This is good stuff!

I think it was Quade said 'in a spin reserve is designed to open, backpack would not.' According to Cossey, Cooper had only a functional backpack. Here it is from Quades post last night: [Quade: You might survive, but ONLY because modern reserve parachutes are designed to deploy even if the person is tumbling. It's part of the spec. Your main parachute has no such spec. Hope you know the difference without any instruction] So I guess the question is: How reliable are NB6/8's at opening in a spin or tumble?

A reserve is designed to work. Speed, body position, whtever. Pull. It works. You guys keep saying this - why!? What is there about a reserve that would open vs a back chute? Cooper had no functioning reserve (Cossey says).

There's a difference between pulling in a spin and pulling while tumbling though. None of us have any idea whether he spun or tumbled on exit. And if he had no experience of training, who knows whether it would have occurred to him to pull while spinning or tumbling? Out of interest, 377, when in your training did you get taught how to stop a spin without pulling? It was part of the requirement for my A, but (no offence) I did my training quite a while after you did yours! This matter of reserves open in spin/tumble vs. back chuites wont open under those circumstances is crucial. Cooper had only the back chute functional.

Last night it was said the reserve chutes were built to open during a spin, but the old back packs not. Can you confirm or deny and cover that aspect of this matter?

You never made a jump in your life, have you? In fact, by that statement I'd wager a guess you've never seen how typical first timers react to free fall. And I can damn near guarantee you've never made a free fall jump at night. You have NO idea what you're talking about in this regard. None. "Measures which probably help in stabilisation? (sic)" Don't make me laugh! INSTINCT don't enter into it. Humans have NO instinct about free fall. None. They have instinct about falling from a height of a few feet, but any way a normal human might react to that situation has ZERO relevance to falling out of an airplane. None. Because of this, inexperienced jumpers have a tendency to curl up into the fetal position and fall unstable. Virtually everything they try to do instinctively is 100% wrong. Somewhere in a skydiving history thing I remember reading about, I think it was some french skydivers, that actually "figured out" how to be stable in freefall (and which laid the basis for what we are taught today) and this was decades after people started jumping from planes. Quade is right, there is no instinct. I'll see if I can find the source/story. Orange, this is proving to be very instructive, to me at least. The vids Quade posted speak plainly. Its very easy to see how anything in Cooper's pockets could have come out. Its basic issues like this that help define the case.

Yet 100% correct. You don't have to believe me. Find a guy with an airplane, strap on a parachute and jump out of it with no instruction. You will NOT be falling stable. I guarantee it. You might survive, but ONLY because modern reserve parachutes are designed to deploy even if the person is tumbling. It's part of the spec. You're main parachute has no such spec. Hope you know the difference without any instruction. Feel free to ask any skydiving instructor you choose about the above scenario. I won't stop you. Exit is related to free fall, but they are not the same and in particular not out of a jet. Even an expert skydiver, one with thousands of jumps under his belt will probably tumble on exit. An expert might take several seconds to recover. A novice as shown in pervious posts might never recover. Youve made a thought provoking points here. BTW, a ball does roll in freefall, in air. Im wondering what Guru is thinking?

This statement and idea behind it are so ludicrous, I thought I'd Google up a few YouTube videos of what can happen to a guy who in spite of having several jumps under his belt and been given instruction how to control his body . . . yet his crappy human "instincts" for dealing with falling out of an airplane somehow manage to fail him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl72Wf13c5w Notice the grace and beauty inherent in the human instinct to flail. Here's a guy that has a goofy exit, but the instructor is still attached to him. Sweet! The instructor gets him flat and stable, then let's go of him. All the student has to do is . . . nothing . . . watch how fast it goes south. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUTzX1JJczY Sweet instincts! Opening the chute seems to solve everything.

measures which probably help in stabilisation? OK, You are the expert. What was visible to Cooper when he jumped? I mean below him to say 5000feet. Around him in the air/sky? Above him standing on the stairs? Please tell us. Im assuming since youve already said there were no reference points, there was nothing for Cooper to see, period .... total darkness. I mean Im asking. I really dont know. Yous eem to know, so tell us.

You never made a jump in your life, have you? In fact, by that statement I'd wager a guess you've never seen how typical first timers react to free fall. And I can damn near guarantee you've never made a free fall jump at night. You have NO idea what you're talking about in this regard. None. "Measures which probably help in stabilisation? (sic)" Don't make me laugh! INSTINCT don't enter into it. Humans have NO instinct about free fall. None. They have instinct about falling from a height of a few feet, but any way a normal human might react to that situation has ZERO relevance to falling out of an airplane. None. Because of this, inexperienced jumpers have a tendency to curl up into the fetal position and fall unstable. Virtually everything they try to do instinctively is 100% wrong. No need to get personal; there was a question mark at the end of my sentence - correct? That indicates I was guessing - correct? Its also interesting distinquish Humans from .... nonhumans? Are there nonHumans that parachute? You say: "Humans have NO instinct about free fall." NONE. I guess your point based on experience is: "inexperienced jumpers have a tendency to curl up into the fetal position and fall unstable". I guess you are saying "Humans curl up into a ball, and balls fall (inherently) unstable, because balls are inherently unstable"? Is this what you are saying? Are you saying balls "roll" (unstably) in free fall long distances? You say: "Virtually everything they try to do instinctively is 100% wrong.". That is a sweeping statement. I have no idea at all if you are correct or not. You seem to be speaking for skydiving, physics, and Humans! I wonder if what you've said is true? You also say: "They have instinct about falling from a height of a few feet, but any way a normal human might react to that situation has ZERO relevance to falling out of an airplane." So I gather from the above that the first several feet of what people do has no bearing on free fall at all? I find that odd because people have been saying the exact opposite here for months, ie. the first several feet has everything to do with how the fall is set up (aerodynamically) for the next part of the fall, t10.....tn. ? Again Ive added a question mark (?) above. That means I dont know the naswer.

You and Robert999 settle it tonight. Im outta here

While any reflexive body movements would effect his speed and tumbling, only conscious and deliberate actions (controlled by the brain) would permit Cooper to attain/maintain a stable free fall position. So, 'reflexive body movements would effect his speed and tumbling' But, 'only conscious and deliberate actions (controlled by the brain requiring external reference points) would permit Cooper to attain/maintain a stable free fall position.' And, speed and tumbling are not factors in "stability"? Cooper himself in the environment of the plane etc are not reference points? Huh? Robert99 you are hung up on EXTERNAL REFERENCES claming Cooper had NONE. That is absurd and stupid. I have tried to point out to you, Cooper is himself a reference point. A biological machine walking on two legs in airplanes on planets in gravity have internal references based on situational context; falling for one. Gravity. Genetics! Air(stream). I keep telling you nobody including youw as there to see what happened or what Cooper did or did not do. (Blevins KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED.) But beyond any of this, Robert99 I sense you are a stubborn man. You are going to dismiss anything that does not come out of your own mind, so ... adue. Blevins is more your type. Discuss it with him.

Velly interestink, Dr. 99. I had no idea you were a practicing pediatric neurologist, too. Dr. Fu-Man Spock sayeth: Basic Response #2: sensation of falling; Baby cries and extends legs, arms, and fingers, arches back, then retracts arms and legs; Duration: Until fall is broken by impact or upward resistence. The falling response requires no external references in order to activate. Without the "all-over support" of the ambiotic fluid in the womb, the baby frequently experiences a "falling" sensation and startles awake. This reflex is autonomic, controled mainly by the The medulla oblongata portion of the old brain which controls autonomic functions such as breathing, digestion, heart rate, and basic suvival functions. An array of sensors in the inner ear and along the lower back feed the medulla in this basic function. During gestation, the mother's movements and hormone levels supply the fetus' developing neurology the basic neurologcal parameters needed to establish the critical support-falling baseline. Professor Georger, Thank you for your remarks. Of course, I was not addressing autonomic functions in the post and my referring to "meaningful inputs to the hands and feet" was strictly limited to those inputs that would assist Cooper in maintaining or regaining control using the geostrophic forces available to him. The point is, falling is its own sensation (triggers autonomic responses), even in adults - requires no external references - gravity is enough - unless trained to ignore and/or control, over-ride those natural responses. The autonomic functions are so thorough they will even induce a heart attack (fibrillation) in adults falling from great heights, so often it isnt the fallthat kills you but the lose of blood pressure on the way down, and you arrive at the bottom unconscious unless you took counter measures. I am "sure" Amazon is an expert on this subject! Cooper would have instinctively taken counter measures when he jumped, measures which probably help in stabilisation? But as 377 points out, pulling at the ramp (off the ramp) almost assures stabilisation right from the start and no freefalling. Aside from training, the basic issue is how smart and well thought out Cooper's actions were - he knew he would FALL, unless he was IQ

Confucius (K'ung-tzu} say: "When cold put on coat and sandals". This usually works down to an IQ level of 80! If we assume Cooper had an IQ of at least 80 then .... you fill in the blank.