georger

Please do post online anything you may have from experts that contradicts the National Weather Service's reports and forecasts. I have always wanted to meet an "expert", at least one who knew what he was talking about, and if I ever do meet one my life will be over. I will have seen all the sights and have nothing further to live for. . I posted the 500 millibar charts. 850 and 700 mb inferences can be made and it is my belief Ckrets' 30 knots at 10,000ft came from just such an inference - which one person here already alluded to previously. Larry didnt make the calculation - he knows next to nothing about these matters - but he found something in the files which allowed him to make the statement ... somebody did the calcs back in 71-72, maybe somebody at NWA we all know ? But the calc came from someone. Larry had some foundation for his remark(s). Point is these 500mb charts have implications for potential ground speeds behind an occluded front, as I understand these matters. And yes the charts are the surface chart for the date at 7AM EST. Later ... But you need to come to grips with the ground and pilot reports being real - not imagined. Something explains them.

Simply put, yes. On the backside of a rather fast moving occluded front that had formed earlier in the week, began moving across Washington-Oregon on Tuesday out of the Pacific, moved across Washington-Oregon the day of the 24th and slowed over Idaho, then spread out and began to weaken on Thursday .. I think there were residual cells still lingering as far west and in the vicinity of V23 in Washington, on the 24th and sporadic turbulence associated with some of those cells, with the merging of large warm and cold air masses on the backside of that occluded front. This could account for the various localised reports of quick-passing turulence and squals in certain areas along with more stable conditions noted further west and south, behind the occluded front already passed. That is as much as Im willing to risk saying here. I already know I will be attacked with this much! In the end one must account for all of the data which includes local personal reports of the day. These local reports from a variety of areas made throughout the day of Nov 24 1971 are credible. Here are a few maps. Have at it. Another clue mentioned before, but ignored, are the wind shifts registered at Portland itself, the day of the hijacking. See attached data from Weather Underground. From midnight of the 23rd until noon on the 24th there was a very regular oscillation of wind direction between South - SSW - and SSE. That all changed abruptly about noon. The wind suddenly began a steady shift toward the east until by 7:00pm the wind was virtually coming from the east. The trend line between noon and 7:00 is very clear. Then almost as abruptly , sometime after 7:00 pm, perhaps between 7:00 and 8:00pm, the wind changes again trending back toward the south. To some extent this data contradicts the data previously presented by Ckret and others, as I understand it, especially as regards a stable unchanging scenario for winds in and around the potential bailout time in the vicinity of Portland. The evidence of wind shift is right there in the Portland data others have presented but claimed a stable unchanging scenario. The trend lines and the fact of oscillation changing to a dramatic shift in the trend line and direction between 7:00 and 8:00pm is very clear, as represented in the Portland data. You cannot ignore the wind change data if Cooper bailed anywhere near Portland during the period of a wind shift... This sets the stage for further 'considerations' - based in hard documented evidence to be presented later. Have a nice day!

Look at the "maps" and read their dates - idiot.

Simply put, yes. On the backside of a rather fast moving occluded front that had formed earlier in the week, began moving across Washington-Oregon on Tuesday out of the Pacific, moved across Washington-Oregon the day of the 24th and slowed over Idaho, then spread out and began to weaken on Thursday .. I think there were residual cells still lingering as far west and in the vicinity of V23 in Washington, on the 24th and sporadic turbulence associated with some of those cells, with the merging of large warm and cold air masses on the backside of that occluded front. This could account for the various localised reports of quick-passing turulence and squals in certain areas along with more stable conditions noted further west and south, behind the occluded front already passed. That is as much as Im willing to risk saying here. I already know I will be attacked with this much! In the end one must account for all of the data which includes local personal reports of the day. These local reports from a variety of areas made throughout the day of Nov 24 1971 are credible. Here are a few maps. Have at it.

It was never our intention to interview him on the weather. Bruce doing it? Why not. Sounds good to me. We interviewed him on two main things: What he could tell us about the hijacking itself, and whether the crew knew for sure WHEN Cooper jumped from the plane. The weather...we already had a pretty good idea about it. No use being redundant. If 305 had been running into severe headwinds or flying through a heavy storm, it would have become part of the Cooper legend by now. Yet, people keep trying to invent The Big Northwest Cooper Storm that never actually existed. It's probably a given that here and there the winds may have been a bit higher, or the rain a bit heavier. But except for around the Gorge area, there is no way that around 8PM on November 24, 1971 you could call it a 'storm'. You should know this, Georger. You've lived here. When we get fall storms, as you know, trees fall down, power goes out, and it's all over the news. NONE of those things happened on that day. If there were any 'events' they would be extremely localized. Porteous has spoken to Rataczak a few times. Me, just once. And I'd say Tina Mucklow's name has been 'dropped' here a lot more than Rataczak's. No reply possible - Illiterate. Processing malfunction.

JT, Real facts are those that were recorded by hundreds of professional weather personnel throughout the northwest part of the US on the evening of the hijacking. They were actually there and knew what they were doing. Those facts are contained in the attachments to a recent post by Georger. The Internet is not involved or needed to understand those facts. While the opinions of you and your friends are noted, the actual facts do not support those opinions. Facts trump opinions ever time! Unfortunately, they do not support the scenario you are trying to advance. Would you settle for reports from small and large airport managers, pilots reports who came in that day in the areas affected, reports filed, and small community weather records/reports? Are you and Blevins calling Bohan a liar? Blevins has name-dropped Rataczak a lot in this forum, almost as if they are good friends!, he says after numerous interviews of Rataczak by Blevins & Porteous. Nery a word in all of Blevins' Rataczack commentary about weather during the flight. I wonder why. Did they just forget? Hey Bruce! Interview Rataczack about the weather during the trip. Blevins & Porteous forgot to. Back to basics - Do you know Bohan and his fellow crew members have been interviewed? Do you know Bohan was a good friend of Hastings, manager of PDX? Do you know an FAA reportwas filed? Do you know that several professionals were hired to go over the weather records (for the areas affected) that day. Do you know their reports exist? What happened to Sluggo?

Your own word is just not good enough, Mr Knoss. Your 'Cooper Case' is hereby dismissed on the following grounds...(you guessed it)... LACK OF EVIDENCE. Two zeroes, discussing-abusing each other over - the meanings and portents of "zero"! Velly inter'estink!

Re Mexico....well, for heavens sake no hijacker is going to say "I plan to jump over X, please drop me there" right? Get the plane as far away, give the FBI a much larger potential search area to maximize your chances of not being found. This thinking kind of argues against the fact that Cooper knew there would be a pressure bump on exit. (or if he did that he 'faked' it earlier than he jumped). Aw nuts.... This is like trying to analyze an economy with 2 single unrelated data points Orange, I think you raise a very good point. Cooper was unaware of the possibility of a pressure signature, that would signify when and where he jumped ? (with all his expertise, or lack of same).

Jerry, Those documents are FBI generated and released by the FBI. You seem to be forgetting that the FBI was not involved in the negotiations with the hijacker or the flight planning for the flight from Seattle to Reno. Check Ralph H.'s written statements on this. We know the PI transcript has been sanitised - is incomplete. I dont think you can take anything Cooper said, or is supposed to have said, in isolation as perfect evidence which defines Cooper and his street address, as it were. Otherwise, you could take "no accent" as proof Cooper was a space alien - since all other creatures who have language that we know of are confinded to Earth and have accents, relative to each other! He definatey had some general technical knowledge, or thought he did, as it applied to parachuting and aerodynamics in general. But his instructions are general and even arcane in several instances; front pack vs back pack. He does not specify any specific route out of SEA south. He does not specify a particular (kind of) parachute and he brought none of his own. He makes quite a point of saying the plane cannot land anywhere in the USA but never suggests a quick northern route into Canada - his route is south bound. He accepts and does not over- rule Rataczak's stipulation regarding the stairs. If the stairs being out are vital to some important goal he has about bailing immediately after takeoff near Seattle then he almost meekly lets that opportunity vanish - he could have over-ruled Rataczak. If anything it sounds as if Cooper have no real plan! And if weather and visibility were an issue for him he waits and bails much further south. He doesnt even sound to me like he has a strong military disposition, marked by discipline with every t cross and i dotted. There are just too many contradictions. The only specific is his choice to rob a bank and a corporation by hijacking an airplane and bailing into the wilderness - during weather which will obscure a clear clean search? If there was something clearcut which would define Cooper, such as not looking Mongolian, then it would have been seen a long time ago - easily. "No funny business or I'll do the job - cannot land anywhere in the USA", does not make him third chair oboe in the NY Philharmonic under Leonard Bernstein, 1963 November, playing Mahler's 4th, televised by CBS, narrated by Walter Chronkite! Whatshisnamen.

Jerry, Read the transcripts on Sluggo's web page! It was Cooper who specified the aircraft configuration, flap setting, etc.. And forgot that you cant fly to Mexico from SEA in a 727, no matter how configured! My five year old grandson talks about "flap settings"! (Because his dad does) Georger, There is nothing to indicate that Cooper planned to go to Mexico. Everything indicates that he planned to bail out at the earliest possible moment. I agree, but he did ask for Mexico. Maybe they knew he was bull shitting them, with something so obvious anyone would know he was bullshitting - to cover his true intentions! What better way to conceal than to bullshit. He might as well have said: "Lets go to Mexico City then turn and come back while I decide I want to go to Pittsburg. But, "you cannot stop anywhere in the USA!". " I think he intended to get back to Portland and just assumed they would fly a route over land, going south. He waited until they were nearer Portland in time and prepped to bail near there ... and my mind is closed on the topic! In other words, I think he did exactly what he intended/wanted to do, and what he wanted to do is what he did because: He was in total control more-or-less.

Jerry, Read the transcripts on Sluggo's web page! It was Cooper who specified the aircraft configuration, flap setting, etc.. And forgot that you cant fly to Mexico from SEA in a 727, no matter how configured! My five year old grandson talks about "flap settings"! (Because his dad does) You do know this "conversation" is going nowhere. People's minds are made up, such as it is. Its like conversations between sparrows and trees, each sure of their "facts".

ANSWER: What other skills were evident? Well ... just tell us. Dont pull our tails! Ill come back tonight for the answers - have things to do other than sit here and argue with you and Knoss.

I absolutely agree HE ASKED MANY QUESTIONS! That is in the 302's. So much for his perfect knowledge and perfect plan - this phD in engineering, 727's, and hijacking! If this guy's bomb was not real he was in way over his head and needed to escape asap or face certain capture and possibly being shot dead! Everything else is secondary. So, if he has this PERFECT KNOWLEGDE about 727's et cetera, why isnt he using it? What is his problem? Telling Tina she wont be sucked out is beside the point if he's ina rush to get out! DO IT HIMSELF!!!

So to make a long story short, Cooper already had the information that you inquire about before he boarded the aircraft in Portland. Quote Precisely. And his level of knowledge had him do - exactly what he did, and did not do or ask for! Cooper had the bomb. He could get anything he wanted up to the point of tipping his hand and revealing the bomb might not be real, if it wasnt? If his bomb is not real then what? Cooper knows! Cooper knows! All of his actions are based on that knowledge and his actual level of control which ONLY he knows. This isnt an SAT test for Cooper. This is a hijacking. His life is on the line literally. The whole thing is either a very high risk bluff or . . . He knows! (That for him is his ultimate perfect knowledge if he cares about his Life). You must judge everything in THAT context if this guy is rational at all.

. Cooper also told Tina that she would not be in danger of being sucked out of the aircraft with the stairs down (TOSAW, page 33) a fact later proven by the FBI flight tests. That is an interesting comment on his part - especially since he's asking Tina to open the door and lower the stairs vs. himself doing it! If its so easy to do and danger free, then why not just do it himself ? Possible answer: He assumes Tina has lowered the stairs before and knows the procedure - on THAT plane? But if he's so knowledgeable why not do it himself AS HE WANTS IT DONE? Why involve Tina at all - who may be a moron and NOT have done it before, on that plane? Another possible answer: He doesnt want to be distracted - has things to do - etc. If he's so knowledgeable as you contend, wanting or needing to bail immediately after take off, why not cut through all of this countermand Rataczak and everyone else and ORDER THE STAIRS BE LOWERED PRIOR TO TAKE OFF - PERIOD! He's the guy with the bomb in control! HE CAN GET ANYTHING HE WANTS! Cooper is the guy in control. He has the bomb. He is a perfect actor in a 0-sum game. He can get anything he wants and he knows it! (if his bomb is real)? Therefore, his actions are a perfect expression of his knowledge. His lack of actions likewise. If bailing immediately after takeoff is his choice and such a big deal to him, he can have it simply by ordering it - and to hell with everything else! THAT is precisely what HE DID NOT DO!

You are only partially correct, I believe. Investigate that subject for the exceptions thereof. What makes my statements evidence? GOTCHA! So far you don't qualify for any "exception", so no "Gotcha". Your statement was that you heard it from others, "Hear say". If your going to claim you actually witnessed the training and crime being committed, the you would need evidence to corroborate your statement. With out evidence, there is no; "statement of fact". Besides, you apparently have no skills the group needed to commit the crime, so you could not possibly have been there or "in the know" or an accomplice. Matt Matt, you are so unformed or did you mean "uninformed"? which is why I ask you for answers and proof. that it is really difficult to communicate with you. I'd like to help you out, but I don't have the patience to deal with your negativity. ? calling into question none facts is negative? For your basic premise, let me repeat for your benefit, I was put into this Project at the request of McCoy through coerusion ? by Commander John Anderson in lieu of 4 years in Levenworth So, like Rambo?. My special abilities were an exceptional memory augmented by MK Ultra The beer?. You know nothing of what transpired, and I do not expect you to be understanding, as Jim told me you joined the Crew Who is "Jim"?. Gotcha. I won't respond to anymore of your posts. You have been exposed. Just trying to be nice, here. By your standards or socially acceptable ones? Ask Jerry. Jerry knows everything. Will do, Jerry? Jo forgot more than Bleepins knows, and Bill ain't talkin' at all. Mac ain't sayin' nothin' either. But I DID talk with him often.Before he died? At least HE didn't lie through his teeth..... ya'all. So I understand. You're in the Pen, some one figured out you have a good memory, and booze or drug enhanced it is even better (this would mean no need for logs, as you could just spit out the info when needed, hence no records brilliant!). So they gave you a pardon and wiped out all records of your criminal past. Then you started as the NORJAK Secretary. What next? The MK stuff, are there any long term side effects? How long did you use it? Is it addicting? is it a gateway? This, to me, is starting to make sense. Matt Dont feed the troll ?

Well the answers are pretty simple: _He asked if it would be a 727. _Any idiot can see 727's have rear stairs. _He ASSUMED the rear stairs could be out during takeoff and they would do this. He was baaically wrong and he didnt argue ! _He assumed the rear door could be opened in flight but he was unwilling for some reason to do it himself. Either he was unsure of the procedure or affraid, or both. So he asked for Tina to do it! _With the rear door open but stairs not down he sends Tina forward and attempts to get the stairs out on his own, but cant at first! Tina even reports - he is having trouble getting the stairs down(out) so evidently he had already tried but failed in her presence. This is NOT somebody who knows what he's doing and has extensive expereince with the rear door, stairs, and very likely a 727 itself. Remember, he only asked the ticket agent if the flight was going to be a 727, not what type of 727. This is a guy operating on general information at most, about the 727. The kind of information anyone could get by sitting in an airport watching 727's come and go. He does have some general knowledge about how jets fly (or planes fly) as evidenced by his reference to flaps. He seems to understand the relationship between 'speed vs flaps' ... but his knoweldge does not extend to the level of flaps vs fuel consumption, or even fuel consumpotion vs distance for the 727, or the distance of Mexico City from Seattle! And he doesnt even seem to know what the closest Mexican airport would be from Seattle! He asks for any place in Mexico ... then specifies Mexico City ... then settles for Reno! (and bails somewhere near Vancouver-Portland) Cooper is surprisingly ignorant, if he has other technical skills and knowledge-experience!

Blevins, I need to confirm we are talking about Dona D. Elliot at Ariel WA. and not some other Dona Elliot in the State of Washington. Please just confirm if you can. If this is the right Dona Elliot, I believe she will be contacted tomorrow - Richard Tosaw never married and has no children. He had two sisters and a brother, all deceased. Yeah, Donna D Elliot of Ariel, WA. Her prefix is 360. An address on Merwin Lake Village Road. Using Dex gets her information easily, she is listed. ok thanks.

This is what I looked for - for yrs. I had been told about it, but had no proof it was actually done - now, you found it. I was only able to watch it in second segments. Does anyone know how I can get it on a disk or whatever in order to view it like it is supposed to be viewed. I have only dial-up. Air America planes had a connection to JMWave (reported to be a covert cover) out of Florida. JMWave bought some of the planes. Two companies who had Weber on their payroll at that time and prior to that as Collins were part of JMWave.? Go research JMWave and you will find they bought Air American planes in the 60's and early 70's. JMWave was reportedly related to various covert actions in Cuba and other countries. There was also a reported drug connection. I know you guys think I am crazy but this clip took me right back to where I was yrs ago and all it got me was 12 yrs of being ridiculed and made fun of and called delusional....BUT, I didn't have the clip - just the information that it had been done and Duane's involvement with these companies. These Insurance companies have alway been a puzzled me because Ex-cons cannot be licensed insurance agents. I met many individual who worked for these companies when Duane did - and I have since 1996 found that four of whom Duane had a close association with are also ex-cons. Most agents with these companies were and are very legitimate - but for some reason it seemed to be a easy place for ex-cons to find employment. I have not changed anything in this the post above. I do NOT know know to get the dates and things like that on the post. Just trying to prove my point, because IT is IMPORTANT to me that credit be given where credit should be. Georger: This must have been before your time and I had private communications with lots of people about this prior to the finding of the clip. I had told the story many time including to Mr. Himmelsbach. The FBI never seemed interested in looking for the truth. Does the copy of the above post refresh your mind? You see Georger I am not the Bimbo you think I am... you guys like to make me out to be off my Rocker....far from it. Did I make up Duane's employement and the things he told my yrs ago? Absolutely and Possitively I did NOT! Attention JT - Now you think I made these things up - Hell, NO! ok, thanks.

She also asks people at Dropzone for the following info: She wants to know how to contact the widow of Richard Tosaw because she is interested in buying several copies of his book. She lost Mrs. Tosaw's phone number, she says. Apparently, Mrs. Tosaw still has boxes of the book stored at her house, and Dona would like to buy them. If anyone has this info, you can use Dexknows to look up Dona's phone number and then call her with this information. Her phone is not unlisted, but I hesitate to make it public on a forum. Don't use WhitePages.com. They are a scam. Use DexKnows. In the people category, just enter Dona Elliot and Ariel, WA. . Blevins, I need to confirm we are talking about Dona D. Elliot at Ariel WA. and not some other Dona Elliot in the State of Washington. Please just confirm if you can. If this is the right Dona Elliot, I believe she will be contacted tomorrow - Richard Tosaw never married and has no children. He had two sisters and a brother, all deceased.

Trumpet - Piano Obviously very well... As an aside... A friend's parents met when he played trumpet in a band and she went to watch them

Trumpet - Piano

Where - how did Jo hear about it? Ive forgotten that part, if I ever knew.

It was NOT clear who made the above post or why. What does the profile of Cooper have to do with horses and hockey? Who ever said Cooper talked with Tina about Hockey? Jo you are chasing the wild goose - it was a joke. Made up. Save your time. Put on Chopin or Schubert and enjoy the night air instead -

I sent a message to the proper people alerting them of your post and attached a copy of your post - this may take a couple of days before someone gets back to Dona.